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Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: chungenhung on June 28, 2011, 02:29:45 AM



Title: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: chungenhung on June 28, 2011, 02:29:45 AM
I think there will be other virtual currency based on BTC concept.
Namecoin came up, and it is basically BTC, with a little twist.
What's to stop another currency to pop up?
Just some thoughts


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: BeeCee1 on June 28, 2011, 02:35:40 AM
I think there will be other virtual currency based on BTC concept.
Namecoin came up, and it is basically BTC, with a little twist.
What's to stop another currency to pop up?
Just some thoughts

Nothing prevents other virtual currencies from coming up.  There will probably be multiple ones based on bitcoin.  Bitcoin has first-mover advantage but if a new one comes along with a large enough advantage over bitcoin then it could take over.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: cunicula on June 28, 2011, 02:42:39 AM
I think there will be other virtual currency based on BTC concept.
Namecoin came up, and it is basically BTC, with a little twist.
What's to stop another currency to pop up?
Just some thoughts

There are significant adjustment costs associated with merchants and consumers adopting a new currency. These adjustment costs
are, roughly speaking, proportional to the size of the bitcoin economy. If Bitcoin is not widely used when the new crpytocurrency pops up, and if the new cryptocurrency has superior features,
Bitcoin will collapse in value and the new currency will take off. If Bitcoin is widely used when the new currency pops up, adjustment costs could allow Bitcoin to retain its value
despite the alternative currency's manifest superiority. (compare to Microsoft vs. competitors with superior products)


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: cunicula on June 28, 2011, 02:44:23 AM
I think there will be other virtual currency based on BTC concept.
Namecoin came up, and it is basically BTC, with a little twist.
What's to stop another currency to pop up?
Just some thoughts

Nothing prevents other virtual currencies from coming up.  There will probably be multiple ones based on bitcoin.  Bitcoin has first-mover advantage but if a new one comes along with a large enough advantage over bitcoin then it could take over.

It is so nice to completely agree with someone posting on the forum. This is a first for me!  ;D



Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Rodyland on June 28, 2011, 10:21:40 AM
Another possible "competitor" to btc could be from a large internet retailer creating their own blockchain.  Imagine if amazon started their own blockchain.

Would be very interesting to see - especially if they made "tweaks" to the system.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: deuxmill on June 28, 2011, 11:01:32 AM
I want one that ain't limited ::) to 21 mill .


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Grant on June 28, 2011, 11:04:23 AM
I want one that ain't limited ::) to 21 mill .

You want an inflationary currency ?

Plenty of alternatives, such as the USD.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: cbeast on June 28, 2011, 11:08:18 AM
There are many millions of dollars invested in support of bitcoin. You can always invest millions of dollars to create a competing currency for bitcoin. Or, maybe it would be cheaper to buy bitcoins.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Fuzzy on June 28, 2011, 11:40:48 AM
Another possible "competitor" to btc could be from a large internet retailer creating their own blockchain.  Imagine if amazon started their own blockchain.

Would be very interesting to see - especially if they made "tweaks" to the system.

Why do mention amazon starting a blockchain? Or anyone for that matter?

The whole point of bitcoin, is that no matter who starts it, or who takes part, no entity has direct control over it.

Curiously enough, "The One" who started bitcoin made it a point to use a pseudonym, and hide their true identity.


ACTUALLY! now that I think about it, any company can start a blockchain, and as they control the initial transaction chain, can automatically allocate 55% of the theoretical currency limit to themselves (essentially controlling the amount of currency available), then release the blockchain to the public.

Though I doubt anyone would take part, as the block chain would clearly show that half the currency is already spoken for by one/few accounts.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: hugolp on June 28, 2011, 11:59:40 AM
Why do mention amazon starting a blockchain? Or anyone for that matter?

The whole point of bitcoin, is that no matter who starts it, or who takes part, no entity has direct control over it.

Curiously enough, "The One" who started bitcoin made it a point to use a pseudonym, and hide their true identity.


ACTUALLY! now that I think about it, any company can start a blockchain, and as they control the initial transaction chain, can automatically allocate 55% of the theoretical currency limit to themselves (essentially controlling the amount of currency available), then release the blockchain to the public.

Though I doubt anyone would take part, as the block chain would clearly show that half the currency is already spoken for by one/few accounts.

And to add to what you say, having 50% (or whatever) of the currency would only grant them control for a while. As time passes and they need to operate to control the currency they would end up loosing control of it, because they dont have the monopolly on the emission of that currency.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Thanak on June 28, 2011, 02:14:25 PM
I want one that ain't limited ::) to 21 mill .

Well having a fixed limit and having no central authority are probably two of the most important aspect of bitcoin.

At first I was worried that if a big player like amazon made a move backing their currency with their inventory, they could basicly position themselves as top dog in a new currency... but following that logic, the economy around airmiles and canadian tire money http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_tire_money is already bigger than bitcoin but no one would seriously think of usethem as everyday currency.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: deuxmill on June 28, 2011, 02:23:36 PM
I want one that ain't limited ::) to 21 mill .

You want an inflationary currency ?

Plenty of alternatives, such as the USD.

Great but dollars aren't printed by the people. Bitcoins are . My only problem with Bitcoin is that they are limited to 21 mil . Other then that Bitcoins are a revolution in money , fast and almost anonymous  transactions over the hole world with really small fees isn't possible with dollars or any other currency . So bitcoins are better than USD . To me bitcoin is too similar to gold witch I can't understand why it was valuable in the first place apart from it's property of being easy to store because it didn't degrade but bitcoin has some advantages over gold , easy divisible , everyone can mine it for now , will be harder in the future but still possible , easy transferable , maybe others.


Now i would like a currency that looses some value over time to make wealth holders spend it on things that get profit and not sit on them. I Think currency shouldn't be a wealth storing medium.

 


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: muscles on June 28, 2011, 03:18:14 PM
Oh man, it would suck so hard if every major corporation like Amazon or whatever started using their own virtual currency...


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: hugolp on June 28, 2011, 04:48:09 PM
Now i would like a currency that looses some value over time to make wealth holders spend it on things that get profit and not sit on them. I Think currency shouldn't be a wealth storing medium.

Inflation benefits the people that have more wealth because it props up their assets, while it goes against the people that earn a wage (usually the middle class and the poor) because it devaluates their wages. The basic mistake you are making is believing the wealthy keep their wealth in currency. They dont.

You are advocating a policy that would go against the same people you claim to be defending. I dont know where all this is coming from and its not the same time I have heard this "theory". The ones promoting this theory and making people believe it are geniouses.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Nagle on June 28, 2011, 05:50:44 PM
Oh man, it would suck so hard if every major corporation like Amazon or whatever started using their own virtual currency...
Like these:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRAgQ3ZYekizd4fH8Zt1raSnrvX_89NvdEFt5p1EDY5g2dbh78Ghttp://itunesgiftcodes.com/files/2011/01/50itunes.jpghttp://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/c/0/0/3/8/AAAADIcHZdwAAAAAAAONrw.jpg?v=1226263314000http://www.totallytarget.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/giftcard8.jpg
There's hundreds of those things, and they don't interchange between merchants.

And those are just the ones denominated in dollars. There are "rewards cards", denominated in "points"
http://www.creditcardsco.com/credit-card-news/images/uploads/2011/04/citi-improves-thankyou-reward-card-features.jpg
and phone cards, denominated in "minutes".
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrkUk7djKrp_a8-jaPeV--MNKDe9UX5WOqqoC9bkH2Mo3QdA4Qvg
Those really are a sort of currency, since they have their own unit.

In the US, stored value cards usually don't interchange between vendors. Hong Kong, though, has the Octopus card.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Nce8sv2hDck/TUU5PbnD3aI/AAAAAAAACco/TVWYQ8kYEAs/s400/260px-AdultOctopusCard.jpg
Works for transit, vending machines, fast food, etc.

So there are already a lot of corporate currency-like things out there.



Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: finnthecelt on June 28, 2011, 06:46:17 PM
Oh man, it would suck so hard if every major corporation like Amazon or whatever started using their own virtual currency...
Like these:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRAgQ3ZYekizd4fH8Zt1raSnrvX_89NvdEFt5p1EDY5g2dbh78G
So there are already a lot of corporate currency-like things out there.



But those are all translated and initiated with a dollar transaction. BTC is independent of the US Dollar in it's origin.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Shinobi on June 28, 2011, 07:40:01 PM
Quote
But those are all translated and initiated with a dollar transaction. BTC is independent of the US Dollar in it's origin.

Exactly right. And since there is no real BTC economy, every merchant-like transaction is essentially being done at dollar amounts with BTC being used as an intermediary either for the sake of novelty or to anonymize illegal transactions - in either case, having the BTC converted into dollars almost immediately.



Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: finnthecelt on June 28, 2011, 08:02:59 PM
Quote
But those are all translated and initiated with a dollar transaction. BTC is independent of the US Dollar in it's origin.

Exactly right. And since there is no real BTC economy, every merchant-like transaction is essentially being done at dollar amounts with BTC being used as an intermediary either for the sake of novelty or to anonymize illegal transactions - in either case, having the BTC converted into dollars almost immediately.



Not necessarily. Most merchants will be receiving currency and BTC and would apply Gresham's law. They would use the currency for operating expenses and save the BTC according to their own risk appetite and expectations. Liquidating BTC as needed.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: BeeCee1 on June 28, 2011, 11:31:50 PM
but following that logic, the economy around airmiles and canadian tire money http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_tire_money is already bigger than bitcoin but no one would seriously think of usethem as everyday currency.
They really are a type of currency, people don't think of them as such because they aren't freely convertable, you're pretty much stuck using them on airfare or some fairly limited catalog of products, but companies (like credit card companies) buy them from airlines to give out as rewards.

Amazon could start a new blockchain then give the coins out as rewards points.  You could then redeem them for money off on your purchase. They could also sell them to other web sites, you buy an airline ticket and get X amazonRewardPoints.  Since it is based on the blockchain, any partner could verify the number of points out there.  Also, they could accept points knowing they were free to re-distribute them and that Amazon was effectively fixing their value.  Pretty soon you'd have a large network of merchants both giving out and accepting points without having to trust each other not to create an arbitrary amount of points.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Fuzzy on June 29, 2011, 08:52:02 AM
If there is, it better be efficient on these ATI cards.

Wonder if making a new mine-able currency efficient on ATI cards would be a good thing or a bad thing. Would you want a HUGE jump in hashing power from all the Bitcoin miners switching over? Or maybe make it super efficient on the old 3DFx cards, just for fun  :D


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: hugolp on June 29, 2011, 08:53:59 AM
If there is, it better be efficient on these ATI cards.

Wonder if making a new mine-able currency efficient on ATI cards would be a good thing or a bad thing. Would you want a HUGE jump in hashing power from all the Bitcoin miners switching over? Or maybe make it super efficient on the old 3DFx cards, just for fun  :D

It does not matter. If suddenly a new miner software allowed the miners to do hashing at double speed, everybody would switch, difficultry would double and everything would remain the same.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Fuzzy on June 29, 2011, 11:22:41 AM
If there is, it better be efficient on these ATI cards.

Wonder if making a new mine-able currency efficient on ATI cards would be a good thing or a bad thing. Would you want a HUGE jump in hashing power from all the Bitcoin miners switching over? Or maybe make it super efficient on the old 3DFx cards, just for fun  :D

It does not matter. If suddenly a new miner software allowed the miners to do hashing at double speed, everybody would switch, difficultry would double and everything would remain the same.

I meant a new currency to compete with bitcoin, in which the algorithm for mining just so happened to be 10x faster on a 3dfx Voodoo card than the next leading mining chip.

Would love to see everyone rushing and digging though their old hardware, dusting off their old PCI / AGP based VooDoo cards. Hilarity would ensue...

Actually, the Voodoo 5 6000 is so rare, you could easily trade one in for a 6990 today. Nothing funny about that.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: killer2021 on June 29, 2011, 01:13:46 PM
I want one that ain't limited ::) to 21 mill .

Who says you can't do a, "stock split" with bitcoin?


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: markm on June 29, 2011, 02:19:50 PM
"Now i would like a currency that looses some value over time to make wealth holders spend it on things that get profit and not sit on them. I Think currency shouldn't be a wealth storing medium."

Leaving aside the problematic rationale about what effect such a currency would have on wealth holders, I suspect pocket-change blockchain-based currencies might serve. For example much as I would like bitNicKeLs to forever grow in value, it seems likely that if they do in fact seem to be doing so umpteen imitators would appear, competing for the same userbase, resulting in small-change blockchain-based currencies in general tending to stay relatively small in value and quite possibly generally tend to decline in value (at least those of them that ever actually managed to aquire any value to potentially be able to lose).

Thoughts such as that are part of what leads me to think that having quite a few blockchain-based currencies in play should tend to help the original bitcoins to grow in value instead of tending to cause all blockchain based currencies, or the original bitcoins in particular, to decline in value.

Basically I am thinking that maybe if small-change / pocket-change blockchain based currencies are seen not to hold value very well, the strong value-retaining performance of 'the real thing' (meaning bitcoins, not pepsicolgatepalmolivecoin or colacoin or whatever used to be a real thing in adspeak once upon a time) might cause the 'real thing' (actual bitcoins) to gain cachet as notably a 'blue chip' blockchain-based currency.

The 'legend' built around the Freeciv Galactic Milieu blockchain-based currencies aims at furthering such perceptions by maintaining that the Hacker nation, originator of Bitcoin, that uses Bitcoins as national currency, is far more advanced than the Martians, whose Martian BotCoin is upheld by far more powerful technology than that possessed by the Brits and Canucks, and so on, with bitNicKeLs being so puny they are typically only worth about 1/20 of a UKB or CDN...

-MarkM-


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: jtimon on June 29, 2011, 06:57:41 PM
Now i would like a currency that looses some value over time to make wealth holders spend it on things that get profit and not sit on them. I Think currency shouldn't be a wealth storing medium.

Inflation benefits the people that have more wealth because it props up their assets, while it goes against the people that earn a wage (usually the middle class and the poor) because it devaluates their wages. The basic mistake you are making is believing the wealthy keep their wealth in currency. They dont.

Inlfation is not the only way to discourage storing wealth in currency. Maybe he just wants freicoin.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: qed on June 30, 2011, 07:37:36 AM
I think there will be other virtual currency based on BTC concept.
Namecoin came up, and it is basically BTC, with a little twist.
What's to stop another currency to pop up?
Just some thoughts

The fail of Namecoin.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Andrew Vorobyov on June 30, 2011, 12:20:28 PM
Inflation benefits the people that have more wealth because it props up their assets, while it goes against the people that earn a wage (usually the middle class and the poor) because it devaluates their wages. The basic mistake you are making is believing the wealthy keep their wealth in currency. They dont.

I don't care who will profit - rich or poor - from inflation currency.

In order to have big enough lending activity people should be discouraged from storing value in currency for long term.

If wealthy do not keep their wealth in currency - objective met. If they are running successful businesses - they have right to be wealthy.




Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: finnthecelt on June 30, 2011, 01:04:05 PM
Inflation benefits the people that have more wealth because it props up their assets, while it goes against the people that earn a wage (usually the middle class and the poor) because it devaluates their wages. The basic mistake you are making is believing the wealthy keep their wealth in currency. They dont.

I don't care who will profit - rich or poor - from inflation currency.

In order to have big enough lending activity people should be discouraged from storing value in currency for long term.

If wealthy do not keep their wealth in currency - objective met. If they are running successful businesses - they have right to be wealthy.




Another enabler....... Seems you haven't put a lot of study into the monetary systems of the world and how one becomes uber wealthy. Their goal is to own nearly everything and make you a slave. At least they want to own everything that can be the facilitator of some type of transaction fee. Indenturing the world....

You're ok with this?


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Nagle on June 30, 2011, 03:24:51 PM
"Now i would like a currency that looses [sic] some value over time to make wealth holders spend it on things that get profit and not sit on them.
Some "gift cards" have fees assessed monthly to make them gradually go to zero.  The US and some states regulate this; in the US gift cards can't have periodic fees for the first year. (http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/23/news/economy/gift_card_regulations/index.htm)

Then, of course, there's inflation.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: deuxmill on June 30, 2011, 03:41:48 PM
Inflation benefits the people that have more wealth because it props up their assets, while it goes against the people that earn a wage (usually the middle class and the poor) because it devaluates their wages. The basic mistake you are making is believing the wealthy keep their wealth in currency. They dont.

I don't care who will profit - rich or poor - from inflation currency.

In order to have big enough lending activity people should be discouraged from storing value in currency for long term.

If wealthy do not keep their wealth in currency - objective met. If they are running successful businesses - they have right to be wealthy.




Another enabler....... Seems you haven't put a lot of study into the monetary systems of the world and how one becomes uber wealthy. Their goal is to own nearly everything and make you a slave. At least they want to own everything that can be the facilitator of some type of transaction fee. Indenturing the world....

You're ok with this?

and this ain't happening with Bitcoin?

Bitcoin changed the printing process of currency and that is great but by being limited it is GOLD. Some early adopters (we that are already in the system) will have large amounts and will be able to dictate the price others won't have at all. Now if a new currency i don't talk about Bitcoin but another one which would have an incentive for investing/spending for example inflation or taxation of wealth built in then i would adopt that currency . Bitcoin from what i understand has a constant monetary mass growth that is great until we reach the 21 mil limit then what will be the incentive to spend bitcoins other than changing in state accepted currency? If the hole purpose of bitcoin is a intermediary currency to facilitate transactions from one state backed currency to another or speculation than great it wont matter how valuable it will be. But i don't want an intermediary currency or digital gold i want global money printed by people and not by governments or banks or churches or other power pillar , that will facilitate trade and progress and not wealth.

Currency can't solve all the problems and it needs to be mixed with other measures but we are talking about currency here.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: johanatan on July 01, 2011, 05:45:52 AM
Inflation benefits the people that have more wealth because it props up their assets, while it goes against the people that earn a wage (usually the middle class and the poor) because it devaluates their wages.
Isn't this the reason we have cost-of-living wage increases, bonuses, etc?  Inflation also benefits mortgagees (and other debtors) by reducing their debt in relation to available currency.

Quote
The basic mistake you are making is believing the wealthy keep their wealth in currency. They dont.
Neither do the working classes.  They spend it.  It's a currency --

If one's exposure to the dollar is limited (i.e., hedged via DXY [or similar] puts), how does inflation hurt him?

If the working classes want to save or invest they buy stocks, bonds, mutual funds, or what have you (ideally based on advice from honest financial advisors or they merely leave it to the fund managers [essentially with hedging and diversification built-in to the funds themselves]).


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: jtimon on July 01, 2011, 06:52:27 AM
Bitcoin changed the printing process of currency and that is great but by being limited it is GOLD. Some early adopters (we that are already in the system) will have large amounts and will be able to dictate the price others won't have at all. Now if a new currency i don't talk about Bitcoin but another one which would have an incentive for investing/spending for example inflation or taxation of wealth built in then i would adopt that currency . Bitcoin from what i understand has a constant monetary mass growth that is great until we reach the 21 mil limit then what will be the incentive to spend bitcoins other than changing in state accepted currency? If the hole purpose of bitcoin is a intermediary currency to facilitate transactions from one state backed currency to another or speculation than great it wont matter how valuable it will be. But i don't want an intermediary currency or digital gold i want global money printed by people and not by governments or banks or churches or other power pillar , that will facilitate trade and progress and not wealth.

Currency can't solve all the problems and it needs to be mixed with other measures but we are talking about currency here.

What do you think about freicoin? It would also have the 21 M (or other number) limit, but also demurrage. That would incentive people to either spend or invest rather than holding the currency.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: markm on July 01, 2011, 07:04:51 AM
Don't forget World of Warcraft "gold". MUDflation inflationary enuff for ya?

-MarkM- (I already posted elsewhere that I suspect BitNickels might not prove as deflationary as Actual Original ("Hacker") Bitcoin.)



Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: jtimon on July 01, 2011, 07:26:13 AM
Don't forget World of Warcraft "gold". MUDflation inflationary enuff for ya?

-MarkM- (I already posted elsewhere that I suspect BitNickels might not prove as deflationary as Actual Original ("Hacker") Bitcoin.)



What are bitNickels ?


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: markm on July 01, 2011, 07:56:30 AM
Don't forget World of Warcraft "gold". MUDflation inflationary enuff for ya?

-MarkM- (I already posted elsewhere that I suspect BitNickels might not prove as deflationary as Actual Original ("Hacker") Bitcoin.)



What are bitNickels ?

OMG already they have dropped out of mainstream consciousness, quick, sell, sell, sell, before the price plum gets eaten! OMG OMG OMG

-MarkM- (Try Freenode #bitcoin-bots /msg nickelbot help nkl)


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: kloinko1n on July 01, 2011, 07:59:35 AM
Great but dollars aren't printed by the people. Bitcoins are . My only problem with Bitcoin is that they are limited to 21 mil . Other then that Bitcoins are a revolution in money , fast and almost anonymous  transactions over the hole world with really small fees isn't possible with dollars or any other currency . So bitcoins are better than USD . To me bitcoin is too similar to gold witch I can't understand why it was valuable in the first place apart from it's property of being easy to store because it didn't degrade but bitcoin has some advantages over gold , easy divisible , everyone can mine it for now , will be harder in the future but still possible , easy transferable , maybe others.

Now i would like a currency that looses some value over time to make wealth holders spend it on things that get profit and not sit on them. I Think currency shouldn't be a wealth storing medium.
You got a strong point here. One of the reasons of the succes of the Wörgl Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wörgl_Experiment#The_W.C3.B6rgl_Experiment) is that the currency was losing its value (got taxed) if one didn't spend it.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: jtimon on July 01, 2011, 02:21:48 PM
Don't forget World of Warcraft "gold". MUDflation inflationary enuff for ya?

-MarkM- (I already posted elsewhere that I suspect BitNickels might not prove as deflationary as Actual Original ("Hacker") Bitcoin.)



What are bitNickels ?

OMG already they have dropped out of mainstream consciousness, quick, sell, sell, sell, before the price plum gets eaten! OMG OMG OMG

-MarkM- (Try Freenode #bitcoin-bots /msg nickelbot help nkl)


I can't get there. Can you paste here the displayed text when I do that?


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: finnthecelt on July 01, 2011, 03:34:15 PM
Inflation benefits the people that have more wealth because it props up their assets, while it goes against the people that earn a wage (usually the middle class and the poor) because it devaluates their wages. The basic mistake you are making is believing the wealthy keep their wealth in currency. They dont.

I don't care who will profit - rich or poor - from inflation currency.

In order to have big enough lending activity people should be discouraged from storing value in currency for long term.

If wealthy do not keep their wealth in currency - objective met. If they are running successful businesses - they have right to be wealthy.




Another enabler....... Seems you haven't put a lot of study into the monetary systems of the world and how one becomes uber wealthy. Their goal is to own nearly everything and make you a slave. At least they want to own everything that can be the facilitator of some type of transaction fee. Indenturing the world....

You're ok with this?

and this ain't happening with Bitcoin?

Bitcoin changed the printing process of currency and that is great but by being limited it is GOLD. Some early adopters (we that are already in the system) will have large amounts and will be able to dictate the price others won't have at all. Now if a new currency i don't talk about Bitcoin but another one which would have an incentive for investing/spending for example inflation or taxation of wealth built in then i would adopt that currency . Bitcoin from what i understand has a constant monetary mass growth that is great until we reach the 21 mil limit then what will be the incentive to spend bitcoins other than changing in state accepted currency? If the hole purpose of bitcoin is a intermediary currency to facilitate transactions from one state backed currency to another or speculation than great it wont matter how valuable it will be. But i don't want an intermediary currency or digital gold i want global money printed by people and not by governments or banks or churches or other power pillar , that will facilitate trade and progress and not wealth.

Currency can't solve all the problems and it needs to be mixed with other measures but we are talking about currency here.


Ok, I see what you are saying. There's only one problem with this line of thinking and that is that many people are caught within the inflation system. They do not have the ability to lend borrow or save. They are swimming for thier very lives. They never asked for a system in which a few people control the money supply. Many never have any excess currency to trade for wealth of any pedigree.

What you would call progress and trade many would do away with so they could catch a breath. Wouldn't it be nice to have a currency that was also wealth so that if you could manage to minimize your expenditures you would be able to save something of value? Through a number of mechanisms I assure you that this would promote a barter system and enhance communities. Many would ban together to trade goods and services in order to keep their wealth/currency. Perhaps to service debt???

This is well understood by the power elite today. They use currency and debt and these businesses you speak of to offer us jobs and steal our time and tear our families and communities apart.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: markm on July 01, 2011, 03:46:09 PM
Don't forget World of Warcraft "gold". MUDflation inflationary enuff for ya?

-MarkM- (I already posted elsewhere that I suspect BitNickels might not prove as deflationary as Actual Original ("Hacker") Bitcoin.)



What are bitNickels ?

OMG already they have dropped out of mainstream consciousness, quick, sell, sell, sell, before the price plum gets eaten! OMG OMG OMG

-MarkM- (Try Freenode #bitcoin-bots /msg nickelbot help nkl)


I can't get there. Can you paste here the displayed text when I do that?

Oh that would just be a tiny little help blurb bowing to IRC flood limitations of only sending one line per two seconds.

Here we can do better: we can go to the source! :

Code:
#!/bin/bash
#
# nkl.sh
#
# BitNickel commands
#



#
# include constants.inc
#
. /var/games/crossfire/mybots/eggdrop/nickelbot/cmds/constants.inc


#
# Now on with the show
#


nick="$1"
cmd="$2"

if [ "$nick" == "" ]; then
  echo 'Nick was empty! NKL commands require a non-empty nick.'
  exit 1
fi
for n in btcbank britbank cdnbank czbank gmcbank grfbank martianbank nmcbank nickelbank unbank; do
  if [ "$n" == "$nick" ]; then
    echo "Sorry, $n is a restricted nick with no access to this function from IRC"
    exit 1
  fi
done

$BITNICKELD getnewaddress throwaways >/dev/null 2>/dev/null

if [ "$cmd" == "" ]; then
  echo 'Your bitNicKeL address here is:'
  $BITNICKELD getaccountaddress $nick
  echo -n 'Your bitNicKeL balance here is '
  balance=`$BITNICKELD getbalance $nick`
  echo "$balance"
  if [ `echo "$balance < 1" |$BC`  ]; then
    echo 'Your balance is less than 1! Please bring your balance up to at least 1!'
  fi
  echo "Transaction fee per kilobyte here is set to $TXFEE"
  exit 0
fi
if [ "$cmd" == "help" ]; then
  echo 'NKL commands: nkl, nkl balance, nkl address, nkl send amount destination'
  exit 0

fi
if [ "$cmd" == "address" ]; then
  echo 'Your bitNicKeL address here is:'
  $BITNICKELD getaccountaddress $nick
  exit 0
fi
if [ "$cmd" == "balance" ]; then
  echo -n 'Your bitNicKeL balance here is '
  balance=`$BITNICKELD getbalance $nick`
  echo "$balance"
  if [ `echo "$balance < 1" |$BC`  ]; then
    echo 'Your balance is less than 1! Please bring your balance up to at least 1!'
  fi
  echo "Transaction fee per kilobyte here is set to $TXFEE"
  exit 0
fi
if [ "$cmd" == "send" ]; then
  if [ "$3" == "" ]; then
    echo 'Syntax: nkl send toaddress amount'
    exit 1
  fi
  if [ "$4" == "" ]; then
    echo 'Syntax: nkl send toaddress amount'
    exit 1
  fi
  echo -n 'Your bitNicKeL balance here is '
  balance=`$BITNICKELD getbalance $nick`
  echo "$balance"
  if [ `echo "$balance < 1" |$BC`  ]; then
    echo 'Your balance is less than 1! Please bring your balance up to at least 1!'
    exit 1
  fi
  echo "Transaction fee per kilobyte here is set to $TXFEE"
  if [ `echo "$3 < 1" |$BC`  ]; then
    Send amount is less than 1! Please send at least 1!
    exit 1
  fi
  $BITNICKELD sendfrom $nick $3 $4    
  exit 0
fi
if [ "$cmd" == "exchange" ]; then
  if [ "$3" == "" ]; then
    echo 'Syntax: nkl exchange tocurrency amount'
    exit 1
  fi
  if [ "$4" == "" ]; then
    echo 'Syntax: nkl exchange tocurrency amount'
    exit 1
  fi
  fxout=$4
  fxback=$fxout
  echo -n 'Your bitNicKeL balance here is '
  balance=`$BITNICKELD getbalance $nick`
  echo "$balance"
  if [ `echo "$balance < 1" |$BC`  ]; then
    echo 'Your balance is less than 1! Please bring your balance up to at least 1!'
    exit 1
  fi
  echo "Transaction fee per kilobyte here is set to $TXFEE"
  if [ `echo "$fxout < 1" |$BC`  ]; then
    Amount to exchange is less than 1! Please exchange at least 1!
    exit 1
  fi
  nicksenoughinbank=`echo "$balance > ($fxout + $TXFEE)" |$BC`
#  echo "balance=$balance, nicksenoughinbank=$nicksenoughinbank"
  if [ "$nicksenoughinbank" == 0 ]; then
    echo "Sorry, that is more than you have in your account."
    exit 1
  fi
#  echo 'EXCHANGING NOT FULLY IMPLEMENTED YET, BLOCKED UNTIL FIXED'
#  exit 1
  if [ "$3" ==  "mbc" ]||[ "$3" == "MBC" ]; then
    $BOTCOIND getnewaddress throwaways >/dev/null 2>/dev/null
    nicksdestaddress=`$BOTCOIND getaccountaddress $nick`
    if [ "$nicksdestaddress" == "" ]; then
      echo "Sorry, I failed to retrieve your destination-address, it came out empty."
      exit 1
    fi
    echo 'Your Martian BotCoin address here is'
    echo "$nicksdestaddress"
    echo 'That is where the resulting Martian BotCoin will be sent.'
    echo "One bitNicKeL currently buys $NKLbuysMBC Martian BotCoins."
    bankbalance="`$BOTCOIND getbalance nickelbank`"
    fxback=`echo "scale=8 ; $fxout * $NKLbuysMBC"|$BC`
    enoughinbank=`echo "$bankbalance > ($fxback + $TXFEE)" |$BC`
#    echo "bankbalance=$bankbalance, enoughinbank=$enoughinbank"
    if [ "$enoughinbank" == 0 ]; then
      echo "Sorry, right now I cannot exchange an amount that large"
      exit 1
    fi
    $BITNICKELD sendfrom $nick $MARTIANNKLADDRESS $fxout
    $BOTCOIND sendfrom nickelbank $nicksaddress $fxback
    exit 0
  fi
  if [ "$3" == "ukb" ]||[ "$3" == "UKB" ]; then
    $BRITCOIND getnewaddress throwaways >/dev/null 2>/dev/null
    nicksdestaddress=`$BRITCOIND getaccountaddress $nick`
    if [ "$nicksdestaddress" == "" ]; then
      echo "Sorry, I failed to retrieve your destination-address, it came out empty."
      exit 1
    fi
    echo 'Your United Kingdom Britcoin address here is'
    echo "$nicksdestaddress"
    echo 'That is where the resulting United Kingdom Britcoin will be sent.'
    echo "One bitNicKeL currently buys $NKLbuysUKB United Kingdom BritCoins."
    bankbalance="`$BRITCOIND getbalance nickelbank`"
    fxback=`echo "scale=8 ; $fxout * $NKLbuysUKB"|$BC`
    enoughinbank=`echo "$bankbalance > ($fxback + $TXFEE)" |$BC`
#    echo "bankbalance=$bankbalance, enoughinbank=$enoughinbank"
    if [ "$enoughinbank" == 0 ]; then
      echo "Sorry, right now I cannot exchange an amount that large"
      exit 1
    fi
    $BITNICKELD sendfrom $nick $BRITNKLADDRESS $fxout
    $BRITCOIND sendfrom nickelbank $nicksaddress $fxback
    exit 0
  fi
  if [ "$3" == "czb" ]||[ "$3" == "CZB" ]; then
    $CZBITCOIND getnewaddress throwaways >/dev/null 2>/dev/null
    nicksdestaddress=`$CZBITCOIND getaccountaddress $nick`
    if [ "$nicksdestaddress" == "" ]; then
      echo "Sorry, I failed to retrieve your destination-address, it came out empty."
      exit 1
    fi
    echo 'Your CZech Bitcash address here is'
    echo "$nicksdestaddress"
    echo 'That is where the resulting CZech Bitcash will be sent.'
    echo "One bitNicKeL currently buys $NKLbuysCZB CZech Bitcash."
    bankbalance="`$CZBITCOIND getbalance nickelbank`"
    fxback=`echo "scale=8 ; $fxout * $NKLbuysCZB"|$BC`
    enoughinbank=`echo "$bankbalance >= ($fxback + $TXFEE)" |$BC`
#    echo "bankbalance=$bankbalance, enoughinbank=$enoughinbank"
    if [ "$enoughinbank" == 0 ]; then
      echo "Sorry, right now I cannot exchange an amount that large"
      exit 1
    fi
    $BITNICKELD sendfrom $nick $CZNKLADDRESS $fxout
    $CZBITCOIND sendfrom nickelbank $nicksaddress $fxback
    exit 0
  fi
  echo 'Hmm I guess you maybe specified a destination currency I do not offer...'
fi

-MarkM-


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: revcoin on July 01, 2011, 05:19:57 PM
Bitcoin-like currency which is essentially a distributed electronic billing system can do more than a currency,e.g. ,it can record a loan or other fancy thing,it can classify currency  to several class,etc.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: jtimon on July 01, 2011, 07:13:31 PM
Don't forget World of Warcraft "gold". MUDflation inflationary enuff for ya?

-MarkM- (I already posted elsewhere that I suspect BitNickels might not prove as deflationary as Actual Original ("Hacker") Bitcoin.)



What are bitNickels ?

OMG already they have dropped out of mainstream consciousness, quick, sell, sell, sell, before the price plum gets eaten! OMG OMG OMG

-MarkM- (Try Freenode #bitcoin-bots /msg nickelbot help nkl)


I can't get there. Can you paste here the displayed text when I do that?

Oh that would just be a tiny little help blurb bowing to IRC flood limitations of only sending one line per two seconds.

Here we can do better: we can go to the source! :

CODE

-MarkM-


What is this code for?
Could you just explain me what bitNickels are or link me to an explanation?


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: twobits on July 01, 2011, 07:16:22 PM
Probably.  It would be nice if the code base was made as common as possible with things based on the bc code, like namecode, and we could run multiwallets to manage our store of them all instead of different programs for each.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: deuxmill on July 01, 2011, 08:41:23 PM
Inflation benefits the people that have more wealth because it props up their assets, while it goes against the people that earn a wage (usually the middle class and the poor) because it devaluates their wages. The basic mistake you are making is believing the wealthy keep their wealth in currency. They dont.

I don't care who will profit - rich or poor - from inflation currency.

In order to have big enough lending activity people should be discouraged from storing value in currency for long term.

If wealthy do not keep their wealth in currency - objective met. If they are running successful businesses - they have right to be wealthy.




Another enabler....... Seems you haven't put a lot of study into the monetary systems of the world and how one becomes uber wealthy. Their goal is to own nearly everything and make you a slave. At least they want to own everything that can be the facilitator of some type of transaction fee. Indenturing the world....

You're ok with this?

and this ain't happening with Bitcoin?

Bitcoin changed the printing process of currency and that is great but by being limited it is GOLD. Some early adopters (we that are already in the system) will have large amounts and will be able to dictate the price others won't have at all. Now if a new currency i don't talk about Bitcoin but another one which would have an incentive for investing/spending for example inflation or taxation of wealth built in then i would adopt that currency . Bitcoin from what i understand has a constant monetary mass growth that is great until we reach the 21 mil limit then what will be the incentive to spend bitcoins other than changing in state accepted currency? If the hole purpose of bitcoin is a intermediary currency to facilitate transactions from one state backed currency to another or speculation than great it wont matter how valuable it will be. But i don't want an intermediary currency or digital gold i want global money printed by people and not by governments or banks or churches or other power pillar , that will facilitate trade and progress and not wealth.

Currency can't solve all the problems and it needs to be mixed with other measures but we are talking about currency here.


Ok, I see what you are saying. There's only one problem with this line of thinking and that is that many people are caught within the inflation system. They do not have the ability to lend borrow or save. They are swimming for thier very lives. They never asked for a system in which a few people control the money supply. Many never have any excess currency to trade for wealth of any pedigree.

What you would call progress and trade many would do away with so they could catch a breath. Wouldn't it be nice to have a currency that was also wealth so that if you could manage to minimize your expenditures you would be able to save something of value? Through a number of mechanisms I assure you that this would promote a barter system and enhance communities. Many would ban together to trade goods and services in order to keep their wealth/currency. Perhaps to service debt???

This is well understood by the power elite today. They use currency and debt and these businesses you speak of to offer us jobs and steal our time and tear our families and communities apart.


So basically you are saying that something that is engineered to gain value would help those people that are spending all their income on every day living? If you have none it won't bring you more. You need some that you are able to save to gain something from it's gain in value. Bitcoin like currencies have the advantage of not being centralised and so you don't have to convince a bank to lend you some money you can find a person that mined some and maybe start something profitable . If the currency looses value over time then that person might be even happier to spend the money on a business then stick to them. Once you create a product or a service you are in control over how much you ask for it. Now if we combine this with all the open source thinking that is happening all over the place we would have a really low point for entering in many businesses .

Weal if you barter you don't need currency . If you are willing to accept tomatoes for clothes then go ahead i would love to see you manage them. 

Barter would bring you loses and headaches that is all. Or you will accept to barter only for certain things ? Please explain how would a clothing manufacturer barter , so he will accept basically whatever you can throw at them and then they would try too sell those funny things to someone who wants them until they get what they need to produce the clothes or they would ask only for cloth slightly more then what was used to produce the previous clothes? Are you serious ?  This is exactly why  currency was invented so that everyone could accept it and not have to manage all those different things people consider of value , and that is also why currency shouldn't be a medium to store wealth because it's only purpose its to be given away for things you need.


So to make it clear. Bitcoin is a revolution and it should remain just as it is . A deflationary currency . It should behave just like gold because it is gold , digital gold. Gold was valuable because it is a material that ain't degrading so it can be stored. it didn't have any practical use until modern times when we started to use it in tech . But now i'm hoping for that successor of bitcoin that will free the world of organisations like states and banks etc. at least on the level of money.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: giszmo on July 01, 2011, 09:23:12 PM
I want one that ain't limited ::) to 21 mill .

You want an inflationary currency ?

Plenty of alternatives, such as the USD.

@deuxmill: If BTC were not limited but continue to attribute 50BTC to each block found and taken the 50BTC were at 1500$ before, what do you think the power consumption would be like if the world switches over to BTC in 20 years?

@Grant: I don't understand how people claim the BTC not to be inflationary in a phase it increases its volume by 30% in one year. BTC will be dead in 10 years for the one reason or the other. At least that's what most people believe that now try to make a profit from the rally in the BTC economy.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: CurbsideProphet on July 01, 2011, 09:59:08 PM
In an economy, deflation is a much bigger evil than inflation.  Deflation promotes savings and discourages spending.  In other words, kills growth.  Why would you buy something for $1,000 today when you can purchase it for $800 down the road?  Inflation promotes spending and stimulates growth.  I'll buy this house for $200,000 today because it will be worth $250,000 in 10 years.  This is why central banks try to keep a controlled amount of inflation over time rather than deflation. 

The problem is when things are taken to excess as seen in government monetary policy and consumer indebetedness over the last decade or so. 

Bitcoin is deflationary by design, and thus promotes hoarding.  This is a bit of a paradox for something that is trying to become a currency. 


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: deuxmill on July 01, 2011, 11:11:31 PM
I want one that ain't limited ::) to 21 mill .

You want an inflationary currency ?

Plenty of alternatives, such as the USD.

@deuxmill: If BTC were not limited but continue to attribute 50BTC to each block found and taken the 50BTC were at 1500$ before, what do you think the power consumption would be like if the world switches over to BTC in 20 years?
Huge. I can only think of a huge rush to produce more electricity cheaper . What would be the power consumption if all cars would be changed with electric cars? We have the technology to produce enough  power. The problem is that there ain't much incentive to produce much more power right now because it can't be stored. What will be the technology in 20 years ? 20 years is a really long period at today's pace i can only think it will accelerate.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: giszmo on July 02, 2011, 12:27:39 AM
I want one that ain't limited ::) to 21 mill .

You want an inflationary currency ?

Plenty of alternatives, such as the USD.

@deuxmill: If BTC were not limited but continue to attribute 50BTC to each block found and taken the 50BTC were at 1500$ before, what do you think the power consumption would be like if the world switches over to BTC in 20 years?
Huge. I can only think of a huge rush to produce more electricity cheaper . What would be the power consumption if all cars would be changed with electric cars? We have the technology to produce enough  power. The problem is that there ain't much incentive to produce much more power right now because it can't be stored. What will be the technology in 20 years ? 20 years is a really long period at today's pace i can only think it will accelerate.

i'm talking about mining power consumption. do you think it is justifyable to have 3MW already in btc today? i do but if price goes up by x100k, power consumption will do so, too and 300 nuclear power plants is not what i want to be needed to run bitcoin so for me it is ecologically essential to reduce the reward at some point. satoshi was maybe too pessimistic about global adoption of btc. we can only guess what the $-reward per block will be at the end of the 50BTC area. I imagine it could at least be 150.000$/block and i somehow doubt that satoshi really thought it would go that fast.

at that point, bitcoin will be the only lottery that cashes out about 100% of the money you put in as i doubt that many people will be participating at cash out rates of the established lotteries.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Trader Steve on July 02, 2011, 12:29:21 AM
There are many millions of dollars invested in support of bitcoin. You can always invest millions of dollars to create a competing currency for bitcoin. Or, maybe it would be cheaper to buy bitcoins.
+1


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Trader Steve on July 02, 2011, 12:30:41 AM
I want one that ain't limited ::) to 21 mill .

Who says you can't do a, "stock split" with bitcoin?
It already splits automatically because of its divisibility.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: Trader Steve on July 02, 2011, 12:33:29 AM
Inflation benefits the people that have more wealth because it props up their assets, while it goes against the people that earn a wage (usually the middle class and the poor) because it devaluates their wages. The basic mistake you are making is believing the wealthy keep their wealth in currency. They dont.

I don't care who will profit - rich or poor - from inflation currency.

In order to have big enough lending activity people should be discouraged from storing value in currency for long term.

If wealthy do not keep their wealth in currency - objective met. If they are running successful businesses - they have right to be wealthy.




See:

Bitcoin And The Virtue of Hoarding And Deflation
http://economicsandliberty.wordpress.com/2011/06/10/bitcoin-and-the-virtue-of-hoarding-and-deflation/ (http://economicsandliberty.wordpress.com/2011/06/10/bitcoin-and-the-virtue-of-hoarding-and-deflation/)

and

What is Money?
http://economicsandliberty.wordpress.com/what-is-money/ (http://economicsandliberty.wordpress.com/what-is-money/)


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: error on July 02, 2011, 02:19:45 PM
In an economy, deflation is a much bigger evil than inflation.  Deflation promotes savings and discourages spending.  In other words, kills growth.  Why would you buy something for $1,000 today when you can purchase it for $800 down the road?  Inflation promotes spending and stimulates growth.  I'll buy this house for $200,000 today because it will be worth $250,000 in 10 years.  This is why central banks try to keep a controlled amount of inflation over time rather than deflation. 

The problem is when things are taken to excess as seen in government monetary policy and consumer indebetedness over the last decade or so. 

Bitcoin is deflationary by design, and thus promotes hoarding.  This is a bit of a paradox for something that is trying to become a currency. 

This again? Go learn basic economics.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: relative on July 02, 2011, 02:43:01 PM

satoshi was maybe too pessimistic about global adoption of btc. we can only guess what the $-reward per block will be at the end of the 50BTC area. I imagine it could at least be 150.000$/block and i somehow doubt that satoshi really thought it would go that fast.

god, I hope the exchanges offer short selling by then.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: qikaifu on July 02, 2011, 04:51:59 PM
it cost bitcoin 2 years to have 200 million usd market cap., which has no competitors. If bitcoin exists, another similar e-currency will be hard to succeed. As people will adopt the one with more adopters.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: TraderTimm on July 02, 2011, 05:55:43 PM
it cost bitcoin 2 years to have 200 million usd market cap., which has no competitors. If bitcoin exists, another similar e-currency will be hard to succeed. As people will adopt the one with more adopters.

I'm inclined to agree, 'first mover' advantage usually defines who's number one. Numerous comparisons to online services provides a good example of this phenomenon. Hard to overtake something unless it fails spectacularly. My bet is on bitcoin 1.0 :)


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: xyu on July 02, 2011, 06:25:34 PM
I've recently discovered bitdollar.org (http://bitdollar.org) but I don't have much time to learn about it. As I understand it is a competitor to bitcoin, or am I wrong? Have anyone investigated what bitdollar is and what its key features are?


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: oOoOo on July 02, 2011, 09:24:33 PM
Deflation promotes savings and discourages spending.  In other words, kills growth. 
 
Perfect! Kill "growth" before it kills us!

Quote
Bitcoin is deflationary by design, and thus promotes hoarding.  This is a bit of a paradox for something that is trying to become a currency. 

No, it is the prerequisite of a functioning society.
.


Title: Re: There might be another virtual currency following BTC
Post by: cbeast on July 11, 2011, 11:32:16 AM
I've recently discovered bitdollar.org (http://bitdollar.org) but I don't have much time to learn about it. As I understand it is a competitor to bitcoin, or am I wrong? Have anyone investigated what bitdollar is and what its key features are?
I didn't see any explanation about it on that link. Looks dodgy.