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Alternate cryptocurrencies => Altcoin Discussion => Topic started by: Quicker_777 on June 15, 2013, 02:49:44 PM



Title: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: Quicker_777 on June 15, 2013, 02:49:44 PM
So I know my own opinion as to the "most promising" alt coin other than Bitcoin, but I'm curious what the popular opinion is for this topic. 

I will wait until 50 or so votes before saying which one I believe is the "most promising" and why, so that I can at least see what the unbiased vote result is.  I will also announce the "in progress" vote count as I write my viewpoint. 

Of course, anybody may post in this thread at any time to try and influence the vote count! 

 ;)



Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: AquaMan on June 15, 2013, 05:32:13 PM
So I know my own opinion as to the "most promising" alt coin other than Bitcoin, but I'm curious what the popular opinion is for this topic. 

I will wait until 50 or so votes before saying which one I believe is the "most promising" and why, so that I can at least see what the unbiased vote result is.  I will also announce the "in progress" vote count as I write my viewpoint. 

Of course, anybody may post in this thread at any time to try and influence the vote count! 

 ;)


LTC , as well as PhenixCoin, which is not listed there, PXC has the best most active developers behind their coin right now. Their website, Phenixst.com (free escrow site) Casino, their own exchange coming out soon, PXC was the only coin that successfully got held back off cryptsy to give it more time to grow.
 Some people will bash PXC, they just havent studied enough to find whats really important behind a new coin.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: TheSpiral on June 15, 2013, 06:52:08 PM
Some pretty horrible choices...


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: jbmiller10 on June 15, 2013, 06:58:28 PM
You're missing two of the three altcoins with the highest network hashrates, DGC and WDC...


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: Charles999 on June 15, 2013, 07:13:01 PM
where's worldcoin????


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: Oldminer on June 15, 2013, 07:16:12 PM
where's worldcoin????

Poll fail.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: AquaMan on June 15, 2013, 07:20:18 PM
WDC..  kidding right... lol, here come the WDC and DGC trolls... they already died, people are putting their energy mining dead coins.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: jbmiller10 on June 15, 2013, 07:41:00 PM
WDC..  kidding right... lol, here come the WDC and DGC trolls... they already died, people are putting their energy mining dead coins.
You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, as I am my own. However, what exactly constitutes a "dead coin" to you?

Developer's jumping ship?
A total drop off of hash rate that leaves transactions unconfirmed?

I'm genuinely curious here.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: PoolMinor on June 15, 2013, 08:28:27 PM
GameCoin....always and forever.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=208747.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=208747.0)

-PoolMinor


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: FlappySocks on June 15, 2013, 08:42:15 PM
"Most promising alt-con" needs to be defined a little more.

Does it mean, the alt-coin most likely to succeed?   Litecoin is inevitably going to top that chart, as it's well established.
Or should we be voting for the coin we would like to succeed because it's the most interesting (technically or otherwise)?


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: mr_random on June 15, 2013, 08:43:29 PM
The most promising coin is whatever coin the person who responds has most of.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: AZIZ1977 on June 15, 2013, 08:47:34 PM
Your missing so many alt coins.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: chunkatuff on June 15, 2013, 08:54:57 PM
The most promising coin is whatever coin the person who responds has most of.
correlation does not imply causation


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: Quicker_777 on June 15, 2013, 09:44:34 PM
Your missing so many alt coins.

No doubt.  Some of these coins mentioned are "dying" coins that are not supported by active mining any longer, or are not traded on the exchanges yet (Pheonix coin).  Feel free to post a more comprehensive poll if you really think there is a chance that those coins would skew the results  :-\

Poll results are now showing Litecoin by a landslide.  The others are not really distinguishable in results:

Ripple (no 2 by a couple votes). 
Which coin would I like to succeed?  PPCoin.  I know there are a lot of LiteCoin fans, but I love PPCoin for its novel approaches in several respects - mining, max number of coins, and built-in inflation.  I think it truly has the capability to proceed as a legitimate (and STABLE) currency. 
Which coin do I think will succeed?  Ripple.  Big money will win the day, but not if these guys can't make it truly distributed.  They've got to pay attention to the criticisms placed on their current architecture and create something smooth and workable.  If they can do that, it will succeed definitely.

Keep voting, unwashed masses!


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: Balthazar on June 15, 2013, 10:23:27 PM
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fail


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: CoinHoarder on June 15, 2013, 10:28:24 PM
Chuck Norris Coin is going to take over the cryptocoin ecosystem.

If you don't like it, tell it to Chuck's face... I dare you!  ;D


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: EskimoBob on June 15, 2013, 10:28:36 PM
LTC and Ppcoin


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: imdrunk on June 15, 2013, 10:31:51 PM
Lite


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: FlappySocks on June 15, 2013, 10:39:40 PM
Yacoin in 3rd place is interesting. Is that because people think it has a future, or because it is technically interesting?


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: FlappySocks on June 15, 2013, 11:44:13 PM
Yacoin in 3rd place is interesting. Is that because people think it has a future, or because it is technically interesting?

Well, the way I see it is this:

1. Bitcoin is and Bitcoin will be.
2. Alternative to Bitcoin has to be as advanced as possible, implementing and experimenting with things Bitcoin is just to big to mess with.
3. Litecoin and many other altcoins are outdated. Difficulty retargeting once per day / hour / week and 2.5+ minutes block time are so 2012.

Yacoin does look good.  The best of everything preceding it.  It just needs to solve the anonymity problem.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: JohnSy on June 16, 2013, 01:22:42 AM
So I know my own opinion as to the "most promising" alt coin other than Bitcoin, but I'm curious what the popular opinion is for this topic. 

I will wait until 50 or so votes before saying which one I believe is the "most promising" and why, so that I can at least see what the unbiased vote result is.  I will also announce the "in progress" vote count as I write my viewpoint. 

Of course, anybody may post in this thread at any time to try and influence the vote count! 

 ;)

Wow that's great
LTC , as well as PhenixCoin, which is not listed there, PXC has the best most active developers behind their coin right now. Their website, Phenixst.com (free escrow site) Casino, their own exchange coming out soon, PXC was the only coin that successfully got held back off cryptsy to give it more time to grow.
 Some people will bash PXC, they just havent studied enough to find whats really important behind a new coin.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: MashRinx on June 16, 2013, 01:35:08 AM
If it's fair to say that people are voting with their hashing power, the Alts with the most hashing currently are:

DGC, WDC, TRC, CNC, in that order (using even MHash-to-GHash conversion for TRC, so it may be a bit out of place).  
I have to admit, I was surprised to see 200 MHash still on CNC, but more than a few someones are still mining it.

EDIT:  I misread the title of this post and thought it initially was asking for alternatives to both BTC & LTC.  LTC should be at the beginning of the list above.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: yager on June 16, 2013, 02:05:13 AM
WLD, DGC and MNC


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: Diamondstarfall on June 16, 2013, 02:41:54 AM
I feel like the majority says litecoin yet the price has been falling steadily for the past few weeks.

Really makes you wonder, this whole game is a speculator's game.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: CoinHoarder on June 16, 2013, 02:46:51 AM
I feel like the majority says litecoin yet the price has been falling steadily for the past few weeks.

Really makes you wonder, this whole game is a speculator's game.

Litecoin is historically more stable than most other Litecoins.

However, it rises and falls with Bitcoin and Bitcoin has been down the past few weeks.

It'll bounce back- I think now is a good time to buy (which I am), the price won't be this low for long.

Also.. this is my +1 for Litecoin.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: dmatthewstewart on June 16, 2013, 12:18:16 PM
where's worldcoin????

Where it properly belongs, out of this conversation


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: jackjack on June 16, 2013, 12:25:00 PM
where's worldcoin????

Where it properly belongs, out of this conversation
Don't say this out loud, oldminer will come with all his bullshit


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: willphase on June 16, 2013, 05:05:24 PM
ripple is not an altcoin...


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: Sondey10mg on June 16, 2013, 05:47:19 PM
A poll is bad if it doesn't cover all options. You will not get statistic relevant data from this poll.

So yes, poll fail



Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: digitalindustry on June 16, 2013, 06:03:04 PM
 By default it is NVC at the time of the poll - because Nova is the next highest price , and thus the next most promising to pay you more if you are intending to mine and sell or hold , as of this poll -

So unless you are planning on eating Cryptocurrency - it is by definition at this time, the "most promising" -

LTC is at $2 that is a huge % drop - i think it will find support , but its a big hit -


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: p0peji on June 16, 2013, 06:43:33 PM
By default it is NVC at the time of the poll - because Nova is the next highest price , and thus the next most promising to pay you more if you are intending to mine and sell or hold , as of this poll -

So unless you are planning on eating Cryptocurrency - it is by definition at this time, the "most promising" -

LTC is at $2 that is a huge % drop - i think it will find support , but its a big hit -


Say what? Since when is higher price of a currency an indicator of its potential?


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: jjiimm_64 on June 16, 2013, 06:45:39 PM


Say what? Since when is higher price of a currency an indicator of its potential?

since everyone that is bidding the coin up in value say it is!!!


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: p0peji on June 16, 2013, 07:00:09 PM


Say what? Since when is higher price of a currency an indicator of its potential?

since everyone that is bidding the coin up in value say it is!!!

Hehe nice troll   ::)


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: ohiwastedmylif on June 16, 2013, 07:07:03 PM
MEC



Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: domob on June 17, 2013, 05:43:50 AM
Clearly namecoin, as that's the only one which actually introduces (IMHO) something really useful and new.  (Not talking about just changing some parameters like the block rate or the hashing algorithm).


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: PalmerEdlrich on June 17, 2013, 12:33:37 PM
By default it is NVC at the time of the poll - because Nova is the next highest price , and thus the next most promising to pay you more if you are intending to mine and sell or hold , as of this poll -

So unless you are planning on eating Cryptocurrency - it is by definition at this time, the "most promising" -

LTC is at $2 that is a huge % drop - i think it will find support , but its a big hit -


Say what? Since when is higher price of a currency an indicator of its potential?

Since when ? not sure exactly , I'll take a shot at it but , 1256 B.C.  since then .

Don't quote me but , it could have been before that . 


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: mrvegad on June 17, 2013, 02:10:02 PM
Yacoin in 3rd place is interesting. Is that because people think it has a future, or because it is technically interesting?

Well, the way I see it is this:

1. Bitcoin is and Bitcoin will be.
2. Alternative to Bitcoin has to be as advanced as possible, implementing and experimenting with things Bitcoin is just to big to mess with.
3. Litecoin and many other altcoins are outdated. Difficulty retargeting once per day / hour / week and 2.5+ minutes block time are so 2012.
+1


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: r32godzilla on June 17, 2013, 02:16:56 PM
Poll fail, where the fark is dgc??


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: jackjack on June 17, 2013, 02:20:15 PM
where What the fark is dgc??
FTFY


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: d5000 on June 17, 2013, 03:49:57 PM
Following coins are promising because they do something different than Bitcoin:

- PPCoin (or another PoS derivative)
- Namecoin
- perhaps eMunie (if it launches and survives)
- perhaps Freicoin, could be the first one with coloured coin support
- Litecoin could survive a bit more than most other altcoins but I'm not totally convinced.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: MaGNeT on June 17, 2013, 06:55:29 PM
I didn't vote, PhenixCoin isn't on the poll.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: defaced on June 17, 2013, 07:03:52 PM
Franko is the future.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: karsy on June 17, 2013, 07:14:31 PM
Digitalcoin or the upcoming Netcoin.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: lukemarshall on June 17, 2013, 07:19:49 PM
Prolly Bitbar...



Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: Brunic on June 17, 2013, 07:25:35 PM
Litecoin dominance is impressive.  :o


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: moody123 on June 17, 2013, 07:45:37 PM
You're missing digitalcoin on this list.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: ChrisJ on June 17, 2013, 10:02:49 PM
A real challenger for Bitcoin would have to be a better invention that won't be a fork of the original code and won't have the word 'coin' in the title.

These coins are largely marketing efforts with a sustained innovation model. So community and determination is key to their success. FTC is the most promising on this basis.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: fxmulder on June 17, 2013, 10:09:15 PM
you're missing a few coins on that list, I've kind of leaned towards stablecoin lately just because its name seems to meet its behavior.  Too early to tell though


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: LosingAlpha on June 17, 2013, 10:24:50 PM
A real challenger for Bitcoin would have to be a better invention that won't be a fork of the original code and won't have the word 'coin' in the title.

These coins are largely marketing efforts with a sustained innovation model. So community and determination is key to their success. FTC is the most promising on this basis.
We have a winner. Other desirable features:

-2 decimal places (no more counting zeroes)
-More limited supply than we've seen from most alts
-More protection against sociopathic 51% dick-swinging.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: spoodle on June 17, 2013, 10:42:46 PM
Porncoin is always on Top, its just behind at the moment(which it doesn't mind), stick around for the money shot.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: mebezac on June 19, 2013, 06:44:06 PM
I don't think you can classify eMunie as an alt-coin, but a completely different kind of cryptocurrency. That being said, I am the most intrigued and excited by the development going on with eMunie.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: solracx on June 19, 2013, 07:04:01 PM
-More protection against sociopathic 51% dick-swinging.

What this means is that any miner needs a license and can be revoked at anytime.

Or, a miner applies for a miners license that defines how much he can mine and get exhausted once limit is reached.  Kind of those garment quotas that existed years ago.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: xchrix on July 02, 2013, 08:39:22 PM
I didn't vote, PhenixCoin isn't on the poll.

PXC is missing!! the most promising altocoin ;)


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: nawazish1 on July 02, 2013, 09:05:34 PM
I didn't vote, PhenixCoin isn't on the poll.

PXC is missing!! the most promising altocoin ;)

Why not vote for our partners then. ;)


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: MaGNeT on July 02, 2013, 09:36:35 PM
I didn't vote, PhenixCoin isn't on the poll.

PXC is missing!! the most promising altocoin ;)

Why not vote for our partners then. ;)

There's only one in the poll  :'(

Project "Tri-Coin"!

-= WDC PXC FTC =-


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: cryptomaker22 on July 02, 2013, 09:38:17 PM
Where is PXC?


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: nawazish1 on July 02, 2013, 09:42:33 PM
I didn't vote, PhenixCoin isn't on the poll.

PXC is missing!! the most promising altocoin ;)

Why not vote for our partners then. ;)

There's only one in the poll  :'(

Project "Tri-Coin"!

-= WDC PXC FTC =-

I think the poll operator liked CNC more then PXC and WDC.  >:(


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: jackjack on July 03, 2013, 08:43:54 AM
Where What is PXC?


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: nawazish1 on July 03, 2013, 08:52:35 AM

Here you go

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=246481.0

 :)


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: jackjack on July 03, 2013, 09:03:34 AM

Here you go

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=246481.0

 :)
Hey I remember you, you were in many loan threads
Good thing you realized that the best way to win easy money is to create a copycoin


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: nawazish1 on July 03, 2013, 09:05:39 AM

Here you go

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=246481.0

 :)
Hey I remember you, you were in many loan threads
Good thing you realized that the best way to win easy money is to create a copycoin


Have you read that post with open eyes. That is not my coin. I am a miner now :)


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: pinarello on July 03, 2013, 09:16:45 AM


the answer on this is EMUNIE that is the future, just do some research and you will find it one of the most promissing releases of all recent coins launched.



Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: nawazish1 on July 03, 2013, 09:19:47 AM


the answer on this is EMUNIE that is the future, just do some research and you will find it one of the most promissing releases of all recent coins launched.



I also like this one but it is really difficult to get info about it. There should be a thread about how to get the client and how to set it up with some screenshots.


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: just_me on July 03, 2013, 03:11:12 PM
The answer may be somewhat relative. What is of value to one person, may not be of value to another person.

Personally, I really don't care.

But, if I want to buy low and sell high, then look for low priced coins right now, and the low priced coins can get large percentage increases without even becoming all that valuable, whereas coins that have already risen significantly will require huge amounts of investments in order to get them to go up.

Since it is early days of these coins, therefore I like the low priced coins.

Which one is 'best' then? The lowest priced coin, that will go up by 10x or 100x or 1000x in the shortest amount of time, I suppose, that would be the 'best' coin to me.

But, the odds are not good that I will chose correctly to find that coin.
And once that coin has gone up alot, then it is not the 'best' coin anymore, and it is time to sell, and try to find the next 'best' coin.

Its relative and changing over time.

Overall market sentiment, rather than logic, seems to be driving some of the coins at times. ;D

The 'herd' mentality/mind. The masses of people following the trends. The pumpers on forums or chat having significant effects on coin prices, but that may not last and I think it is a temporary thing. At the same time, bashers can also have significant effects to drive the price of coins down as well. Then there is some people who have more 'clout' or 'pull' who may be more able than others to cause their own hegemonies to get through, such as people who run exchanges. The exchanges have significant amounts of pull, I see. In other words, they can magnify the coins they like, and belittle other coins, if they want to.
For example: Ltc's claim to fame is that ltc may get traded on mtgox, which is an exchange.
Therefore, perhaps which coin will be best in the future will be more decided by the exchanges, or the most popular exchanges, rather than by the masses of the people. Therefore, the answer is in the hands of the few people who own and run those exchanges then, and for the most part, it does not matter what the rest of us think.
For example: Mtgox could start trading in Goldcoins, and goldcoins which are currently low priced, would likely shoot up in value quite alot, and perhaps even surpass LTC in price. So, like I was saying, the exchanges will decide which coins will be the 'best' coins in the future.

Some people in the LTC community may be feeling the heat recently, what with the addition of so many other promising coins, that may compete with LTC, so people who are invested in LTC are trying to move fast to get their coin 'up there', rather than wait, and have other coins perhaps surpass LTC.

But consider that whatever coin Mtgox may add to their exchange, that coins price will likely go up alot.
And the people at mtgox might consider that they can buy alot of the lowest priced coins, such as Goldcoins, and then shock the entire coin community by adding goldcoins while snubbing LTC. And mtgox might gain even more money by doing so, because they can buy so much Goldcoins for so much less, and the rate of increase of the Goldcoins would likely be much greater than any increase in LTC.

Then consider what will happen to the coin that mtgox decides to boot off of its exchange? That coin will likely drop in value alot.

The main power seems to be in the hands of the exchanges, and not in the hands of the coin makers/copiers , nor is it in the hands of the pumpers or bashers either. Just whoever has power at the exchanges will decide which coin will be 'best' or 'higher priced, and mtgox can put almost any coin on their exchange and it would likely become higher priced than ltc.



Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: A L I E N on July 03, 2013, 03:41:28 PM
http://www.megacoin.co.nz/


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: jackjack on July 03, 2013, 04:30:20 PM
http://www.megacoin.co.nz/
Quote
Anonymous
Stopped reading


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: abcehmumhecba on July 03, 2013, 05:24:50 PM
yacoin for the reasons listed on their site:

* Currently the only CPUMined coin (with all other altcoins, CPUMining has become unprofitable as GPUs, FPGAs and/or ASICs can do it much more efficiently.
* Means that anyone can get involved with mining YAcoins. You don’t need a fancy AMD video card, and a complex miner program with a lot of technical know-how
* This may also mean that the YaCoin coin distribution is and/or will be more widespread, and thus more democratic (this is speculation at this point)
* Also means that YaCoin could see a larger, more sustainable network hashrate, as miners can co-mine it along with GPU-based coins
* PoS and PoW (long-term power efficiency)
* Ultra-fast confirmations



i'm not entirely sure how well the 'cpu only' mining will work, and if people will find a loophole to get their GPU/asic's onto it or whatever,,,but if it holds up, it should be pretty cool.
i would ASSUME that once it gets out there more, a 51% attack would be almost impossible as well.
also it really does seem such a waste that people are running such energy intensive hardware to mine the other coins, especially when human energy production and the side-effects of it are destabilizing the world.  That was always my big concern about bitcoin, and yacoin comes the closest so far to allieving that. 



interesting too, that the original developer left the project.  not sure what the deal was about that, but it's good to see that the coin had enough potential to find its way anyway. 


Title: Re: Most promising alt-coin other than Bitcoin
Post by: Cobra on July 03, 2013, 05:35:43 PM

the answer on this is EMUNIE that is the future, just do some research and you will find it one of the most promissing releases of all recent coins launched.

I totally agree, http://forum.emunie.com (http://forum.emunie.com). Most innovative coin so far in my opinion.

Netcoin and Primecoin also innovate and could have a future.  I just can't say tweaking a few variables and creating a new coin counts as innovation.