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ive been reading a fair amount  about brain wallets. they fascinate me

ive heard some pros and some cons. the main reason against them seems to be that

1- people use very common phrases (lyrics to songs etc)
2- people have poor memory

but if one were to use an uncommon phrase (say a foreign language idomatic expression) and they securely stored the phrase, would the brain wallet fail

additionally ive seen some brain wallets add an extra password to help the seed

given the above assumptions, at a technical level, is there reason to believe brain wallets are not to be used other than what popular opinions feel?

There is a nice discussion here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1719563.0

But any idiomatic expression is almost definitely a bad idea no matter the language.

@OP:

It's just a matter of how well you trust your memory versus the value at stake. A truly secure passphrase is going to require a non-trivial amount of neurons to remember. Any phrase/saying/poetry/quote/song/etc etc. is a bad choice for a password precisely because it's not secret and the whole point of a password is to be secret. All the world's printed information could be stored in a 64-bit address space, with room to spare. But it only takes about 5 or so random words from English to attain 64-bit level security. Only random passwords which are generated locally (secret) should be considered secure. Nothing else is secure.

Here's a diceware password book (https://pastebin.com/Fbg1s5ig) I created sometime back in order to assist people in generating strong, relatively easy-to-remember passwords. Note that you can choose any bit-equivalent of security you like simply by memorizing more words - each word you memorize gives you about 10 bits of entropy. This is not a guess, either, it is a mathematical fact based on the way the password has been selected. Here's a sample password with 72-bit equivalent security, generated by consulting random.org (https://www.random.org/integers/?num=100&min=1&max=6&col=4&base=10&format=html&rnd=new) instead of rolling a die: cook wine pea petal pear text tuba.

For me it sounds like a terrible idea.. It surely can be safe, but I would every day think "what if someone think of the same as me" :P

I would be super paranoid at least..

good conclusion.

period.

That's why majority don't adopt brain wallet.

brain wallet is a good choice to transfer and keep little coin. Not safe enough caused by internet.

How uncommon do you a think an obscure poem written in Afrikaans would be?? Cost some guy 4 BTC back in the day...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ptuf3/brain_wallet_disaster/

Brain wallets are bad, mmmKay? Don't use Brain wallets, mmmKay?
https://i.imgflip.com/1z070x.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/1z070x)

i would have thought they were a great idea because there is nothing to be destroyed,
i.e paper, hard drive, hardware.
once you choose a system for creating your password you are sorted.
If for example you were interested in astronomy you could combine planets in our solar system with their position from the sun,
of you could combine the birth dates of you family starting with the oldest down to the youngest.

what is a bad idea if picking something obscure in some other language, that can be forgotten.

Only your brain.


That's a good example of bad passphrase. Anyone who knows about your passion can easily crack your wallets.

I would higly not recommended brainwallets for average peoples. Passphrase is very weak if hacker knows your identity (and if it used without so-called "salt". but it rightly for all types of passwords). You can't create in your brain something which other people can't repeate in theirs.

Braine Wallets looks to be unsecure

ok, but "they" have to firstly know you, know your interests, try all combinations of all the interests you have, know you have Bitcoin and know they are in a brain wallet.
what about picking something you absolutely hate, or something male orientated if you are a female, it just needs to be something specific that you will remember.

It just doesn't make sense from a cryptographical point of view to carry all of your coins in a single seed, which is why you should avoid brainwallets, and electrum wallets, or anything that could generate all of your keys from a single seed of any kind for that matter.

If your keys are spread across different separated private keys, you are lowering your chances of an attack by a lot. So don't use these for anything else than spare change or temporal re-allocation of btc.

DEF CON 23 - Ryan Castellucci - Cracking CryptoCurrency Brainwallets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foil0hzl4Pg

is an epic reminder why you should not use single hashed brainwallets.

If you must go with a brain wallet than even small passwords salted look pretty strong if using

https://keybase.io/warp

Caveat: That comes from a cryptography layman!

I would say that there a little chance someone guess your brain wallet. For example your passphrase is "IHateDogs". But, because people are similar in brain activity (most of us) someone can just try this password (with evil intent or just for fun) and will get access to your funds. So, you must use so-called "salt". For example - sha256(salt*('yourpassphrase'+'salt')) or something like that. But even with "salt" brainwallets weaker than RNG.


It depends what algorythm you're using. Read about BIP-0039 / BIP-0044
More private keys - better defense against only in some cases. Because it harder to store and secure 3 private keys than 1 seed.

The reason I have to voice an opinion on the NO side here is that I've heard a fair number of people proudly explain to me what their passwords were.

Almost always these were ridiculously easy to crack phrases, yet they didn't have a clue about that.

Humans are just plain no good at creating random.

brain wallets are fun and secure

Don't use non-secrets to build passwords. A non-secret is any kind of public information. Here are some examples of public information:

"To be or not to be" <-- this was published by William Shakespeare about 400 years ago
"I like big butts and I cannot lie" <-- published by Sir Mixalot about 25 years ago
3.14159265... <-- the digits of pi, an easily calculated and well-studied mathematical constant
1.618033988... <-- the digits of phi,   "   "   "

Your typical PC has a 64-bit virtual address space. All the information ever published (on paper) in the history of man could be archived into a 64-bit address space with room to spare. That means that anything that has ever been published is vulnerable to a dictionary attack in resource-feasible time and space - in other words, this is not a "purely theoretical" attack.

For this and other reasons, some cryptographers (e.g. Bruce Schneier) recommend 80-bit equivalent security for passwords, although it is safe in some conditions to fudge a little using password-strengthening techniques.

Humans are notoriously bad at generating randomness. You should not trust your intuitive sense of "mixed-upedness" when choosing a password. You should generate passwords utilizing objective randomness (e.g. a die, a hardware RNG or a CSPRNG). Since no one can store more than a certain amount of truly random information in their brain, utilize a reputable password management tool to track your passwords and choose a master password that is both within your capacity to remember and attains 80-bit level security.

The main factor in making sure you can retain your master password is to use it on a periodic basis. A random password is susceptible to loss if you just memorize it once and then never use it afterwards. I've done this and lost a lot of valuable data as a result (I've lost no wallets in this way, however).

A brain wallet is a secure way to store Bitcoins if you follow best-practice guidelines in choosing a password. You probably don't need a brain wallet, however, unless you are in a situation where you really have no safe place to store the password to your bitcoins. For example, if you live in a country ruled by a totalitarian government or if you travel across national borders frequently, it might make sense for you to keep a brain wallet. I would not use a brain wallet for cold storage, however, since you are liable to forget the password.

What about if a disease occurs to you and you can't remember it? You'll lose the wallet!
Not a good idea!

My thoughts about that. What if you are loosing your mind the past view years? You get something on your head in an accident and lose parts of your memory?

Generally brain wallets are always a bad idea. Humans can't generate a random password or whatsoever.
It might seem random to you, but in reality we are far far away from being random when generating passwords.
The pseudo-randomness in a human-generated password is only a fraction of the randomness of a pc-created password,
estimated enough entropy is gathered. And if you start using phrases which you can memorize easily, then it will be
pretty "easy" for an attacker to guess your phrase, if the amount of btc's stored is high enough.

In what plan to motivate to work? You can not decide on the choice of work, or you are just too lazy to go to work. If only laziness, then it will quickly pass. You have to live for something Smiley

It is not a good idea to me. T never trust my memory. My brain forget everything forget everything need to remember instead of pin it on a brain note. Even you can create a brain wallet by a unique language, are you sure that you can remember it totally every case ? I don't think so unless you are a genius.

brain wallets are fine - don't believe the charlatans, they don't know what they talk about :)

just mind your password - make it long enough and impossible to guess.

What you are talking about is a rare cases which i think you were a pessimist but if you think it will never going to happen it will not. It's just a matter of believing but if it will do going to happen to someone, well they should have better to leave a clue to their trusted friends and family. It may happen to someone but like i said it will rarely to happen.

That's all good, a long strong password will make the wallet secure, I don't think anyone is arguing that point. But as people have pointed out what if somehow you forgot that password, making it long and strong just makes it easier to forget, but even if your memory is somehow exceptional what if an injury or disease makes you forget it? Then what?

then you ought to write it down, preferably not as is, but rather as a puzzle that only you can solve.
I'd also advise to somehow hide the hint message among some unrelated data, so even if someone sees it he wont have a clue that this is the hint to your brain wallet.
for that reason, I would not keep it in a safe.

Brain wallet is the good technique that man can do with his brain power. Bear in mind that human brain is a complex thing and as many algorithms, you think of and provide them with your passcodes or something else at any moment something can happen to you. In that moment it is 50 percent that you will forget your passes and that was your only storage you've  stored it. Afcorsee the human brain is exceptional but always make a backup.

yes brain wallet are good because of the brain of people are very weak they con not  remember our password so they help from the brain wallet to get purchase money

To be honest, this sounds like a fast way to loose money.

+ the burden of remembering it will most likely make you forget it

how many people here alway have a hard time remembering there ccv ?

except if the phrase is stupid simple to remember

i wouldnt advice storing your entire cash on your brain

by the way , your brain is digital !!! :)

print a paper wallet

I thought the same thing as you did. For example, if a bitcoin's owner is suddenly being diagnosed with Alzheimer or Dementia - it's a huge possibility that he/she will lose the memory of many things, including the password for brain wallet!

Bad idea for sure, you can easily forgot your mem phrase or get hacked if its too simple, no way to prefer a paper wallet instead of a brain wallet

brain wallet is not to easy how if we have a lot of same thing and easily forgot

brain wallets are always bad.,
because our mind always chooses easier option becuase it has to keep it in memory i.e. in our brain.

that is the reason brainwallet site got closed and majority brain wallets got hacked and funds sweeped.

if you still want to use brain wallets then use some salt to make it more difficult to crack or guess., e.g. warpwallets are doing the same.,
they even have open challenge to break their wallets .,

ref: https://keybase.io/warp/

Alzheimer or Dementia are usually of a slow onset. But bullets, strokes and meningitis strike fast and produce the same effect.

Of all the things that might disappear in this world one thing is guaranteed - your brain will vanish.

very bad, we are humans we have tendency to forget, keep it simple, write on a piece of paper.

Doesn`t look very safe to me  :-\

As i research for its advantage and disadvatages to contribute to this thread, i just found this article. Credit to the owner. I just add my own idea about it.
Advantages:
1.Only you know the mnemonic in your brain, so you just need to trust your memory.   (this is the hard part, unless you have a good memory)
2.There is no written record or possibility of an online hack. (hackers cant find it,  its in your brain)
3.Your brain wallet is always safe from hacking. (i think its is same as number 2?)

Disadvantages

1.If you suffer from any medical condition like amnesia or dementia, you will lose your coin keys with you. (yes,  if you this kind of problem,  brain Wallet doesnt suits you)
2.As there is no written backup, if you forget your mnemonic phrase, then your funds are lost forever. (Thats your major problem,  you cant crack your password)
3. If someone knows you have a lot of money in your paper wallet, they can steal that. But if someone gets to know that you have a lot of money in your brain wallet, you can get kidnapped. :) (this the best,  funny but true). 

Even if you have a brilliant memory it is not that easy to memorize a mnemonic seed of 24 words or an even longer seed.
However, even if that is no problem for you the risk is simply too big.

If after a few years you only remember 22/24 words, it is still nearly impossible with current computation power to
bruteforce the missing 2 words of your seed.

This problem is intensified by the fact that your memory may be impaired by a medical event like a stroke, a medical
event caused by a accident or even the onset of a medical condition like dementia or Alzheimer´s.

All in all I would recommend a brain wallet only for an amount of Bitcoin that you are willing to lose.

yes brain wallet are useful nut also has disadvantages when accidentally damage so it cant be able to use or log in

Brain wallets are something a good idea. This is the most trustable wallets to use.

What do you mean with "most trustable wallets" to use?
With brainwallet OP referes to wallets generated from a password which will be stored in your brain.
So 1) there is noone you would have to "trust" as a 'walletprovider'. And 2) There are far better options for a wallet.
With normal passwords you are cutting the search space for the priv key to ~1/20 compared with some RNG (considering enough entropy).

Best way to use brain wallets? Create your own language, just like how Tolkien created his own language for the elves. With your own language, it would be very hard to brute force as this would not exist in any dictionaries or any documents online or written in books.

To create a strong password-remember-record-record again and record it)

If you wanna get crazy you could just use a Diceware passphrase. Look it up. one in 1,719,070,799,748,422,591,028,658,176 chance

Or just use a 12 word phrase of random people, places, things, slang and make up your own saying that slips off your tongue easy. Say it over and over again to yourself when nobody else is around.

And don't piss someone off with a quantum computer.  ;)

IMHO - not a very good idea.. :)

This is awful idea to say at least. The very nature of such passwords would make them guessable by potential attacker if only he/she would invest sufficient amount of time and energy to investigate owner's life and preferences. And you can always forget a part especially if you're not using it for a long time.

Brain wallets are not as reliable as TREZOR!

I have three Trezor wallets and have spread my cryptos across all the three.

I guess this is very dangerous if you are not really good at memorizing.  I have read some article regarding this brainwallet that if you forgot it, your bitcoins will be lost forever.  I don't think this is a good idea after all. Only if you have good memory techniques for you to easily recall you bitcoin address or so.

Hello.. Nowadays what is the secure wallet for digital currency?

A Brain Wallet is the one when user remembers their mnemonic phrase or the private key and never writes it down. That is, all is stored in the brain only for security reasons.

So why have a brain wallet and still write you private key or mnemonic phrase down on a piece of paper?

To me brain wallet is not good because it is difficult to manage in case the user forgets his/her mnemonic paraphrase or private key due to any mishap such as  accidents, brain diseases/ damage or even mental stress, he /she will lose his/her crypto-coins and funds.

It's a well-known fact that humans are usually a bad source of randomness, but our memory is actually not as bad as it might seem. Yes, we almost always forget passwords that we've created a few months ago and typed only once, but if you are repeating some words every day, you won't forget them unless you will forget about repeating them for some period of time. I myself memorized my 12 word seed that was generated by Electrum and I've never forgotten it since I started doing it, although I've messed up the order of 2 words when I wasn't doing this exercise for a few days. While this method should never be your main backup for your seed, it's a great additional backup - if your house will burn and your hardware wallet, piece of paper with seed, paper wallet and PC will get destroyed, the seed in your memory might save your coins. There's also additional benefits to memorizing your seed, like the ability to cross borders without risking carrying your wallet/backup with you.

brain wallet is the most secure of all only if u don loose your mind

I´m envious of your good memory!

However, I think even if you are able to memorize the mnemonic seed you should still keep an additional backup somewhere.
You have no guarantee that your memory will work as good as it does now when you are older. This is not even taking into account
the onset of an illness that would compromise your ability to successfully retrieve the mnemonic seed (e.g. Alzheimer or dementia).

I concede that the use of a brain wallet is great for carrying a huge amount of BTC across a border. This should be doable within a few hours
and therefore the potential pitfalls of a brain wallet like the onset of an illness or an accident and so on don´t really apply.

Brain Wallets have a significant disadvantage that means they have a higher probability of being hacked. That is that us humans are pretty predictable in what we use as a passphrase and password, and hacking technology has got a lot better through the use of rainbow tables and dictionary attacks. Also a few large databases of passwords have been leaked meaning so it is quite easy to hash all these passwords and then see if their corresponding address exists as an active address on the blockchain – if so you have the private key and therefore access to the funds.

I can understand why beginners think this is true, because they only think of Bitcoin wallet hacks as "computer intrusions." The problem is that your mind is not capable of being truly random when you are generating the brain wallet.

Brain wallets usually end up being very low entropy because of the way the human mind works. In turn, you are always at a much higher risk of a dictionary attack or similar kind of brute forcing to decrypt your private key.


That's interesting. It never occurred to me that the massive bitcointalk leaks, for instance, might be valuable as brain wallet decrypters. I wonder how many people generate a brain wallet based on compromised passwords/passphrases, only to have them immediately wiped when they fund them.....

If used with high-entropic-generated passwords, Brain wallets can be extremely effective. Otherwise they can be quite dangerous

Brain Wallets have a significant disadvantage that means they have a higher probability of being hacked...

For brain wallets a hard social engineering work can be the key.
Phrases in your brain can be consist of your history and your future.
If you have something which doesn't known by a second one that means "the secret of you" you can use it as a phrase, but then this would mean you uncovered "your secret" and now it means it is not a secret.
If it is not a secret that means it can be found.
So randomization can be more safer then brain wallets.. 

Hey friend

Every wallet has its pros and cons, were adding you a link to few top recommended wallets. Good luck !
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/10-bitcoin-wallet-apps-you-should-consider-using-today_us_5999ed74e4b033e0fbdec566

Definitely bad in my opinion. At least, this shouldn't be the only way you store your words. Seems riskier to me than just leaving on an exchange if you're going to do this.

Nah, brainwallets are easly lost, I'don't commend them at all.

I really don't think these will work always, we can't say the capacity of the memory, creating your own  mnemonic recovery phrase is very risky.
It really depends on the peaon having the wallet, there is a percentage that it will be forgotten and its danger is given-that cannot be, should be 100% safe.

yes it is do good, the brain wallet is so better than than other wallet it is so seccure