Bitcoin Forum

We could say there are ONLY 21 THOUSAND bitcoins, and have them subdividable like 11 decimal points. Just to put a perspective on the arbitrariness of how we define the limit.

Actual BTC limit = 21000000.00000001

Could just as easily be: 21000.00000000001

Or even: 21.00000000000001  (only 21 bitcoins in existance! lol)

So, we could say "21 thousand bitcoins ONLY!" But does that mean there are only 21 thousand bitcoins? No.

They're all the SAME QUANTITY of UNITS allowable. Pretty arbitrary really.

Just food for thought.



A great way of putting it.

Right now, I bet it would be beneficial to move the decimal place a few points to the right so that people feel like they're getting more bitcoin. That psychological effect is a big one.

As an uninformed public I'd much rather have 200 microbitcoins (or whatever) worth $200 total than 2 bitcoins worth $200 total. I bet it would lead to a lot more adoption purely on the psychological implications alone.

What brought that up?  Are you replying to another thread?  Not sure of your point (or logic).


Edit...now I see what you are trying to point out.   But like it was said by calian, it is just a ledger entry.

Kilobitcoins and megabitcoins. Sounds like you'd like the new onecoin alt. Your realization shows that bitcoin is much more of a ledger and much less of a coin. Still an amazing construct though.

Never thought of it that way before... but it appears there are only 2.1 bitcoins in existence..

2.100000000000001 BTC

  ;D

If the project is still around in 2150 or whenever it is, I suspect they'll change the code to have an approximate 2% yearly inflation of available bitcoins.

I'll be dead by then so I won't really care.

So a possible alternative to using mBTC then. Just change the definition of BTC across the board.

So if 1BTC = $100 today, let's move the decimal so that 1BTC=$1. Instead of seeing a measly balance of 4BTC in my wallet, I'll see 400BTC. :)

Nothing really changes but it would encourage noobs IMO (who are perhaps put off by the idea of having to buy one whole bitcoin/dealing with decimals).

Of course when 1BTC=$100, we'll have to do it again. ;D

There is some psychological logic to it - it's pretty much like a stock split when it comes to publicly traded shares. It's fair to say that causes quite a lot of confusion as well.

With the large number of decimal places available to Bitcoins though, I'm not convinced it's necessary. The new 'norm' would just be a mBTC. Trading 0.001 BTC is just fine (assuming 1 BTC is worth a lot and fees aren't too big), but buying 0.001 shares in a company isn't really done.

We can all agree that the 21M figure was contrived to show the world that a limited number of bitcoins will ever be mined, along with showing the handsome algorithm curve for its creation.

If a lower amount were used (via minus a couple zeros) then the price would have skyrocketed too high, to quickly, spooking too many. Likewise, if a higher amount were chosen, this too would spook the masses for a set of dis/similar factors.

For the common layman, mining or investing in Bitcoin will never be on their radar. But, Bitcoin is something of which could be very beneficial to them, directly a/o indirectly, whether they use it or not.

Down the road, the average Bitcoin user would know, or care less what the exchange rate is, as long as they don't see their dollar, et al., fluctuate wildly on their handware device of choice. If fact, they may not even see a total amount of bitcoins figure (useless they opt to display that option), again, just the amount they have on account based in their local currency. Bitcoin will just be the most honest way to keep score via its back end accountability consisting of ones and zeros, sans any major manipulations in the exchanges.

I'm sure that the above has been expressed a myriad of times more eloquently, but opted to try to put Bitcoin back in perspective, hoping others will expand or correct, if need be, my assessment.

What is Source to content and stats? That would be useful. Thanks.

This is great, really, it's like the red pill of perspective.

It is an argument of semantics to say there are 11 million (or 21 million) BTC's when each one is (currently) divisible by 8 decimal places.

…So? Bitcoins were made to be divisible in 8 units… (or 1 byte)

Apparently there are not many mathematicians here. Of course after normalizing the problem there is only 1. People into Finance would call it 100% which is not really much different to saying 1.
For any limited resource that only has speculative value it only matters which share of that resource you hold and what value all of that resource has. That said, people use units of account that relate to their every day transactions which for now for the most people are in the cɃ order of magnitude or mɃ for expressing all you really need to know about the price of any purchasable good. If you move stocks, you will stick to Ƀ or kɃ. MɃ certainly is only interesting for Satoshi himself and maybe one other individual.

Apples are indefinitely divisible.  Do we have 1 apple or 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 apples?

Still one apple....doesn't matter how you slice it.

Stop all this division! It's like your stealing from me when you say there are only 21k bitcoins. Your new ledger leaves me with only a few Satoshi. :'(

2100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
give or take a few

that's why you should buy some bytecoins... and when your done, I have some great desert land to sell you ;)

Yeah, Bitcoin is really just a point system. When you have trustless, distributed, perfect memory of who has how many points, you don't actually need "money." And of course the point unit doesn't actually matter. What matters is what percentage of the total amount in circulation you control, but it's just easier for our brains to work with "coins."

Well stated.

That is a lot of zero's

Yes excellent

mbits

Yeah actually the king of Bitcoin declared it official just yesterday.

Cool.

And who is the "king" of Bitcoin? MtGox?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkbQDEXJy2k

hahaha

Very fitting

Nope

It's just a interesting exercise and way to look at the arbitrariness of the quantification of Bitcoin.

lol

The significance of the 21 is what I wonder about.

I dont get it......

Yes! Why 21???

Why not 35? or 20 even?

Knowing Satoshi's genius, it must have been picked with some sort of formula or insight or REASON. But this reason is never revealed.

Simple. Satoshi, like all humans before they ascend to demigodhood, liked round numbers. That's why he chose 10 minutes as the average block time (instead of, say, 9 and a half minutes). Starting from there, we get 6 blocks per hour, 144 blocks per day, 52,560 blocks per year, and 210,384 blocks every four years. Satoshi wanted the block reward to halve every four years, but being a stickler for round numbers, he chose to round it off to 210,000 blocks. And that's where the number 21 comes from.

:-*

+1 The number is pointless. I use mBTC so for me there are 21,000,000,000 units (or 2,100,000,000,000 if you count mBTC-cents as I do).

isn't 1 for him, 20 for us pretty round?

its real great theory behind this so please think about this 21 ::)

it is nonsense to add inflation to Bitcoins even in a 100 years, Satoshi did not believe inflation was needed and most of us do not believe inflation will be needed.

It is Kanes vs Friderick H.

In a worst case situation in which a satoshi becomes very valuable, all that would be need without the need to inflate the Bitcoin is to add more decimal places, and have units such as milisatoshi, microsatoshi, etc, but we are very far away from that.

 ::) omg

No.

I don't understand why people have so much difficulty with decimal points.

1 -> 10 is inflation.
1 -> .1 is deflation.
1.0 -> 1.00 is increased precision.
1.0 -> 1 is decreased precision.

21 million total bitcoins =/= 21 thousand total bitcoins. Strictly speaking it is deflation. (edit: Not that it matters, mind you.)

Finite number is finite.

Maybe the most accurate definition of Bitcoin would be a ledger that grows to 1 0, base 21 million , because strictly speaking you could multiply or divide the total number of bitcoins in existence by any number you like, not just "10". The observation the OP was really making, though I'm not sure he realized it, is that you can change the base of Bitcoin to whatever you like and it's the same.

Of course it causes psychological problems, and other business, but whatever.

Edit: Lots of stuff lots of the time. Bases are confusing.

Yes this is my point. It's true, moving the decimal point around doesn't change anything because it affects everyone the same.

The base can be changed and it's the same <-- that was a good way of saying it, DumbFruit

Right now, I bet it would be beneficial to move the decimal place a few points to the right so that people feel like they're getting more bitcoin. That psychological effect is a big one.

As an uninformed public I'd much rather have 200 microbitcoins (or whatever) worth $200 total than 2 bitcoins worth $200 total. I bet it would lead to a lot more adoption purely on the psychological implications alone.

Has merit, but if using bitcoins is profitable, there will be adoption. There might be a speedbump here, but not a wall.

Whatever happened with that idea of bitcoins, bits, and satoshi's as the delimiters? I thought that was brilliant. It went like this;

Bitcoins stay the same.

10,000 bits make a bitcoin.

10,000 satoshi's make a bit.

21,000,000. 0 000 0 000
bitcoins       bits  satoshi's

So if you buy, .01 bitcoins, you have 100 bits.

It sounds great to me. It makes you feel like you have more of it, and can buy and spend it more easily too.

Do you take bytecoins?