Bitcoin Forum

There is a scheme here which has been going on for quite a while and is hurting all altcoins.

Developer creates new altcoin, premines it for supposed bounties and services of which only a fraction gets paid to other parties, while the main is cashed in by the dev himself, and dumped when the coin hits the exchange and or earlier via other means.

The "dev" merely changes a few variables in the client, then moves on to create a new altcoin and repeats profiting on it.
This will continue until people stop supporting this kind of madness.

While it would be reasonable to premine some blocks for bounties, if the developer was honest and kept supporting his coin, as in creating services, hiring more developers etc, this option has to be thrown because of the too high risks of being abused.


I urge everyone to not participate in any more altcoins that are premined in the attempt to keep cryptocoins alive.

copy coin -> premine -> dump premined coins on exchange -> profit  needs to stop!



Do NOT dismiss every new coin, just those that are of the above kind. There certainly is space for innovation, but unfortunately it will be harder for new coin developers to establish themselves. They will have to INVEST in their new coin, and hope it will succeed, which will grand them more donations in the long run.
Premine should be a red flag "no go" area for everyone now i hope.


From my observations, it seems that hazard is the guy behind most of those dump coins. He knows how to create new coins and is always there to put down new alts he himself wasn't involved in.

Not all premined coins are pump and dump.  Working example PXC. Innovation is always not important some times better service is more important then innovation.

So someone who releases a coin deserves nothing? your a fool  Quit whining. 

 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

 :D Love it

Sometimes, when a coin has real potential and devs are working on places to spend, increasing value of my and their coins, I don't mind when they hold a 5-10% pre-mine.
It gives me the assurance they also want maximum value for the coin, just like me.

But for "launch today, die tomorrow" pump & dump coins a pre-mine has only one goal...

F Y. If the coin si something innovative I DON'T CARE about premine. Nobody is working for free while some lazy ass  is making money from is work!

LOL YEah He almost called himself a fool.

I want to say thanks for bumping my thread, to make this situation aware to more new players on the market. There are a lot of hyenas involved in this market, and it strikes me to no surprise they are the most vocal on here.

My goal was to make this situation clear to those who are new and or have not realized yet what is going on.

The person who releases it can't mine it himself after it's been released? You're a fool.

But if the person is doing hard work to make the coin successful then what. By your point of view I think he should rely on donations like beggars. Wake up Bro every body needs money to do something. Now consider if you are mining for months and you don't get even a single coin. Will you still keep mining the coin. I am sure even though you won't have to work hard like the developers but you still will work only for money. I have no problem with premine if the developers are really doing something other then pump and dump.

Mods should just close these whiny threads and ban the OP's

Why should he instantly get paid at all? Is he not mining like everyone else? What extra work is he doing that it's so important for him to get paid millions of premined coins in order to copy/paste code?

If a developer actually gives a shit about his coin, he'll code it without his million coin premine.

The only thing a premine does is give shit heads a reason to release clonecoins and sit back and wait to sell them off on some shitty exchange that adds every new shitcoin.

Only copy and pasting a coin can't be called work at all. By saying work i meant the developing the services for it where coin can be used. If BTC is bought by people it is not because it was developed as a currency but it is because it is used as a currency in lots of places. Or else BTC is also not worth anything at all. And premined is needed to promote the coin and to offer them to exchanges like BTC-E to add it to there exchanges and also for paying of for expenses of developing the services.

+1^

Give the creators of Bitcoin your coins, they deserve a premine, according to you.

So what you're saying is that the coin should be created with the intent of bribing exchanges to add the coin and paying people to create websites [of which the owners make profits from the fees]. Good ideas!

Exactly... the developer IF he trusts in his coin, can mine himself, and if he REALLY puts a lot of work into it, the price will skyrocket and will pay for itself. That, along with donations of those who got rich on his coin.

If he has to premine it for profiting on it, he probably already has planned to release the next shitcoin.

Or are there really that many naive people around here that think there are no scum developers in the cryptoworld which would abuse this scheme to infinity as long as it works?

First of all read the first post correctly I said developers should not rely on donations they are not beggars. And the second thing that there are some exchanges which take bribe to add the coin. But its the choice of the developer and the community to do it or not. If they are making services for the coin the exchange will definitely add it. But in a worst case scenario if the developer needs money to do something he would be needing someplace to exchange his coins to money so that the development could be continued.

I think it is useless to talk with you because you will never accept premine. Just judging by your posts. Right now I am supporting PXC and it has the best developers at the moment in altcoins. If you want to see how premines can be used with honesty you can see them. They even help people who have lost their coins because of a service problem.

Nawazish1, The above bolded is exactly the point.  We aren't talking a few thousand coins, or a reasonable number of coins based on the amount of time the "dev" spent "creating" the coin and the "dev's" expected value of the coin.  We are talking hundreds of thousands or millions of coins.  You must realize that a large part of investing and business is emotion driven.  Instantly taking millions of coins for yourself is nothing short of corrupt.  It does not show good faith, it doesn't show a real value in the product or service.  

The point shouldn't be to let greasy business practices continue and further pollute crypto the way fiat is, hoping that you will be able to pick up some of the paltry crumbs from every pump and dump.  We should be striving to be better, not rejoicing when we've managed to use our intellectual potential to prey on others' fears, uncertainties, doubts and ignorance.  We should be facilitating the creation of a system that benefits all of us instead of continuing the same paradigm of apathy and greed.  Civilization and progress are about moving away from animal instinct and impulses and toward cohesion, safety and mutual benefit.  It is a sad fact that we are starting to justify and normalize corruption instead of stamping it out once and for all.

 5-10% pre-mine is reasonable?  lol...

I agree that premining for profit is not good but if that premined is used correctly then it is OK. You can see PXC as an example. If developers wanted to dump the coin they would have done it so far but they are working honestly. And I am OK with that. And I think every one just follows each other in this forum. Now every one has problem with premines. But when the coin come to the market all of them rush towards it. If you don't like the concept then don't use it. And let others to think about themselves guide only if they ask.

And the reason why every one went against premine is FTC. FTC ruined the concept.

I don't want to bash you, but you are missing one very important point. Maybe you don't care about premines (of some coins), others do not like it at all. Also, they are not interested in whatever services the devs might make for their premined coins, all they see is the devs trying to up the value of their premine. And correct or not, that's how many people see it. This will definately hold back the popularity of any premined coin.

Yes I agree to you. Its the fault of the people who try to see with closed eyes. If the premines are donated and used properly I am sure developers wont have enough left for them and also keep in mind that developer effort just not only makes his own coins worth more but it also makes the communities coins to have more worth. But the question arises that if the developers will dump or not when the price is high. I am sure that a wise developer will never dump all the coin he own because he will want to have the wealth online and stay away from the banks. So this means that if developers are honest everything is alright. Its on you how you judge the honesty.

Actually Satoshi himself pre and instamined his coin. So you can call this a tradition :)

Now people are going to deny this :'(. But this is the fact no body works for free and to develop anything money is needed.

BTC-e destroyed a large amount of a premined coin, their message was quite clear

They can change their decision when they will see another coin going higher then FTC. And don't worry cryptsy is there to support those new coins. And after some time Phenix exchange will also be there to support coins with better community support.

EDIT: I also don't want more useless coins. We have enough at the moment. But any one who has a plan is welcomed.

I hope this means your supporting bottlecaps:)

I disagree, he has a right to voice his opinion. Mods already have a tough enough job without drawing a line between "whining" and honest criticism of a business practice which has gone poorly for consumers in the past.
Satoshi never claimed that those early coins were for bounties - all the BTC early adopters kept their coins to use however they see fit.

If you expect payment for creating a coin in the form of a premine, that's fine. Just don't paternalistically claim that only you can be trusted to fund further development. There's nothing stopping early adopters from organizing and funding their own bounties, and rationally they should because it increases the value of coins they still hold.

Alternatively, developers can:
1) borrow money
2) buy coins
3) release a really useful patch/service/whatever
4) watch the exchange rate go up
5) sell coins
6) repay debt from step 1
7) profit!

I laugh at BTC-e, they lost big business opportunities to cryptsy and mcxnow (in case of WDC). It's simply stupid. They took CNC, is it any better than any other alt coin? ;)

I like much better the cryptsy approach: let market determine its value. You say it's a crap, so what? who cares about you? Like the stock market, you can choose to ignore anything you want, you just lose your chances, that's all.

You don't like premine? then don't mine those who have premined. The choice is totally yours. I have been mining every alt coins, and my return is much higher than if I mined BTC/LTC directly. This is the fact, like or not, I don't care.

Yup. The digital world is very fast-paced and those that dont change with the times miss out. Its like gox, sure they apparently still get a lot of trade from BTC but I havent been to their site in ages. I dont trade/mine BTC anymore. BTC-e is the same - lots of missed opportunites, and even if they started listing some of these newer alts I doubt I would use their services again. I like Cryptsy and they were the first to adapt to change so I'll be sticking with them. Coins-e is now taking opportunities from Cryptsy, and likewise even if/when they start listing some of the newer alts they might find most of the volume is already on Coins-e.

The reason that most of the altcoins just copy an existing code base and tweak a few parameters thus really not a challenge to the established leader(s), i.e. Bitcoin:

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

It is really, really hard folks. One little detail wrong and poof ... your money is gone...

My idea is that one should stop moralizing about what people should do in crypto.

After all, most "investors" in crypto, and in the first place, in bitcoin, are here to profit from the losses of others.  Some crypto currencies (such as bitcoin) have also marginally a genuine use (as a currency, to buy stuff with), but by far most of the volume and market cap is not their use.  As such, people investing even in bitcoin, simply want to "hold" it, or to "trade" it, so that others give more value for it than they spent on acquiring it, to get out more than they put into it and hence to profit from the loss of others.

A pump and dump scheme is no different.  The devs who premine or who find other schemes to acquire coins in their system for less than they plan to sell them do no different than the guy buying bitcoin at $200, to sell it at $700.  They put in money and effort, and hope to get out much more money, at the expense of others.

Now why do people "fall" for such a scheme ?  Because they do the same, or try to do the same.  They try to profit from the "pump" phase, and hope to be early in the "dump" phase.  They hope to acquire cheaply, and sell expensive.  They hope to be sufficiently "in sync" with the dev or other "manipulator", that they can eat their part of the cake too.
In doing so, they also take the risk of being the loser who will finance all that gain, because after all it is zero-sum.  But their drive for greed is sufficient to make them blind for the losses.  But bitcoin is essentially no different.  It is just a bigger scheme AND it has some marginally present real usage too.

People that are supporting them are a very strange part of the population I don't understand. There begging for satoshis...

If you need it then you should not be doing it.

We came here to start a virtual currency.
This is not a task for kids working on ICO or smaller premine scam "coins" for profit on Poloniex after school.

Plenty of big projects have been started & survived with no "start up funding"
So that claim is debunked period .

You don't NEED ..fuck all.

..on the contrary you all "WANT"

You create a problem so you can claim the solution.. 2% of the currency etc.

Anyone who supports crowd funding bullshit should get a punch in the mouth.
And there is no other more inapropriate place for that scammy bullshit than HERE !

If you do not have the means.. then you leave it to those that do.
Is that a hard concept to grasp ?

PS:
There is no such thing as an investor either.. these are not stocks.

Regarding the OP's logic, anyone can buy coins from themselves (sell to themselves on the exchange by setting ask higher than anyone else will pay), not just the devs. The effect is to make the demand and price of the coin seem higher than it really is. However that won't work if you've got many smaller players competing to sell to themselves.

So a small % sold as ICO to fund the devs, shouldn't really alter the market.

Every coin will have whales, but they gambled with their money. Issuers who get a whale % are manipulating with the everyone else's money. The issuer can buy the ICO from himself gaining his whale portion for free. Thus large % ICOs are not a free market outcome.

Scammers are brain dead. Why sell of the premine and run with small profits when you can stay and ensure longterm stability and passive income. It doesnt take rocket science to know which is best. Premises are good I would use a premine if I had a coin. How must you pay for bounties otherwise ? Selling the premine is pathetic and means you dont believe in yourself or your coin.

If I made a coin I would want to be proud of it since its mine and I dont make shitty things because I habe self confidence unlike the coward scammers who couldn't be successful if they had all this money in the world.

what are clone coins? you guys have any reading sources that i could read up on? thanks in advance