Bitcoin Forum

I am planning to use bittrex to trade altcoins.  I would first get bitcoin first as i need btc to buy altcoins.

So i have a question on this and want to know if im doing it right.

Let say I have $10000 in btc. 

Btc = 7837.34 usd now

1.28 btc = 10000 usd


I send that 1.28 btc to bittrex.  Lets just make it simple and say i want to buy lisk and its worth $5.  I know its much more than that now but i like to make it simple.  Let say i want to buy 1000 lisk so $5000 plus fees.  I know bittrex fees are 0.25%.  So that means buying 1000 lisk would cost me $5000 + $12.50 = $5012.50.  This is correct right?  So basically now my bittrex btc balance is around half which is 0.64 btc?  To make it simple i ignored the sending btc fee to bittrex.


So let say my goal is to sell it once i make 20 percent profit.  Thus i want to sell it once lisk hits 6 dollars.  Say lisk hits 6 dollars.  I then sell all of it for $6000 - $15 = $5985.  So in this situation I made $5985 - $5012.50 = $972.50.  Is that correct or not? 


So once I sell the lisk on bittrex, I'm getting back btc right since lisk is paired with btc and most altcoins are not paired with usd or usdt as they put it?  So here is what confuses me.  At that moment i will get paid whatever amount btc = $5985 right?  However... isn't it a good chance that i might not get more than 0.64 btc that i originally used to buy lisk assuming btc price went up as well?  Like for example at that moment i bought lisk with my btc...  $5012.50 is about 0.64 btc at that moment.  But now... when i trade $5985 worth of lisk for btc... couldn't i get even less than 0.64 btc?  Thus even though i made a profit of $972.50 in my example buying lisk and then selling lisk... i might get back 0.60 btc only and now my btc balance is only 0.64 btc +0.60 btc = 1.24 btc?  Or is there something wrong with what im calculating here?  I do know when you are investing in altcoins, you are basically betting against bitcoin.  But here in my example, well you need btc in order to buy altcoins almost all the time since theres maybe 10 coins that are paired against usd or usdt?


And if my calculation is wrong, can someone tell me where is my calculation wrong?


Because i believe the profit i calculated is right here.  And if it is right, how do i make sure to lock in these profits?  I know you realized $972.50 in profit here.  But say you dont sell the $972.50 worth of btc now... and wait... well btc price drops... that $972.50 profit could only be $800 or less etc right?  Or is my logic wrong here?  I want to know from daytraders on this as i know daytraders mostly buy low and sell high and make lot of these transactions.  Thus if your goal for lisk is 20 percent profit of 5000 dollars invested and your goal is to make about 1000 dollars on buying lisk minus the buy/sell fees of 27.50 for a total profit of $972.50... are you suppose to immediately send that exact profit $972.50 worth of btc OR WOULD IT BE THE BTC DIFFERENCE between the 1.28 btc you started with and what you have now... and then send it immediately to gdax or gemini and sell it to them and then you lock that $972.50 in profit immediately to your bank account?


The thing is if everything was paired with USD, then it would be very easy to calculate/profits and losses.  I know bittrex has usdt but that is only paired with btc and not many other coins.  So the other thing is would daytraders instead of sending it to gdax or gemini... they immediately turn that btc into USDT?  That way their profits are locked since you have usdt?  I know usdt is around 1 dollar but it cannot be a little less or more.  But i read its still an altcoin.  So i want to know exactly how daytraders lock in their profit after they lock in their profit from one coin.  And most importantly, is it even possible to have a lesser btc balance after buying lisk at 5 dollars and selling it at 6 dollars depending on the btc price.  Because this is very confusing to me.

The deposit part is okay, the buying lisk part is also okay. Getting the profit and conversations are true. After you sell them for $6 each, you will have your balance as BTC, because there is no LISK/USDT market on bittrex. This means, you may make profit in terms of USDT, but you may be in the loss in terms of BTC if BTC price went up while you're trading it.

Okay then what do most daytraders do here then with the btc they receive from selling lisk?  Do they just hold the btc and wait for btc in price to go higher?  Or do they immediately sell it for usdt?  Then use that usdt to either buy more btc or cash out to their bank account?  Or do they send it to gdax/gemini immediately and sell that amount of btc profit to their bank account?


You say you can lose in terms of btc if btc price went up when you're trading it.  Can you explain to me exactly what you mean by that?  You mean if during that time btc price went up from say 7837.34 to like 10000 or something like that... and thats when you sold your lisk when it hits 6 dollars to lock in your 972.50 profit... well the amount of btc you would receive when btc price is 10000... is going to be less than the 0.64 btc you originally used to buy lisk?  Thus you might only get back 0.60 btc or 0.50 btc if btc prices goes high?  So the opposite is true.. if btc prices goes below 7837.34, then you would make more profit since the btc you receive would be a lot more than 0.64 btc etc?


The thing is so if i lisk goes up 1 dollar and sell you for 972.50 profit, you would still be up money right?  But you would have less btc because btc price went up?  So wouldn't that mean once you sell a coin once it hits your target price profit, IMMEDIATELY sell it for either USDT or immediately send it to gdax/gemini and cash it out to your bank account?  And when you do this, its going to be whatever btc $972.50 is right at that moment?  Or am i wrong here?  Because people say the goal of trading altcoins was to get more bitcoins.  But if your lisk goes up and you sell it for profit but btc also go up, then there is chance you get less btc that you invested in to buying lisk which is 0.64 lisk used to buy lisk.   Can you explain it a bit more or any other daytrader can?  This is the reason why i haven't daytraded yet because im still confused with this because if everything was invested against usd or usdt as they put it, that would be easy to calculate.  Because if i own btc... and also want to invest in altcoins... well i obviously want btc price to go up as i am holding it.  But those altcoins i obviously want it to go up since im planning to daytrade.  But if btc goes up and lisk goes up, i get lesser btc that i invested which makes me very confused here. 


Because if anyone here daytrades altcoins, wouldn't that mean it might be better to get rid of all their bitcoins?  Because many people say investing in altcoins is basically betting against bitcoin.  But i have bitcoin and will not sell it because it seems to be doing good.  But i also want to invest in altcoin for daytrading profits.


So can you or any experienced daytrader explain this to me?

I can tell you right off the bat that you made a serious calculation error in saying that once you buy LISK, your account will only be worth 64% or whatever. This makes literally no sense. I think you misplaced the decimal in the fee structure by 1 or 2 zeroes. Bittrex fee is 0.25% not 2.5% or 25%. Fees are hardly relevant in daytrading cryptocurrencies because the swings are so high to begin with that they are rather negligible. If you can't even beat the fees then chances are you shouldn't be trying to day trade crypto to begin with.

Well assuming i start off with 1.28 btc in my bittrex account.  If i want to buy 5k worth of lisk at 5 dollars each... isn't that half my btc balance so 0.64 btc since 1.28 btc is 10000 usd?


Yes i know the fees are 0.25%.  So where am i calculating it wrong?  If i buy 1000 lisk at 5 dollars each... thats about 5000 usd.  The 0.25 percent fee would be $12.50.  So i paid $5012.50 for the 1000 lisk... or 0.64 btc.  Am i right or not on this?  I don't know how im incorrect on this.   I also do not know where you get i mention 64%?  I meant after i buy 1000 lisk... my btc balance would show 0.64 btc approximately.


Yes i know the trading fees which is 0.25% isn't much at all.  Can you or anyone else here look at my math again?  Im positive that this part of the math i am correct here.  What im confused here is with locking profits etc and how to do it.

Can someone comment on this?  I like to know how to do this before i daytrade.  Thus i don't want to know after i bought lisk at 5 dollars and then sold lisk at 6 dollars, i got no profit at all because btc went up too high etc. 

The problem is here:

  "Thus i want to sell it once lisk hits 6 dollars"
 
You do not get to sell your lisk for dollars.  You sell it for BTC.  When you put in your sell order you do not enter dollars, only BTC.

So in your example with BTC = $7838, then $6 is 0.0007656 BTC.  You could sell when lisk hits 0.0007656 BTC.   Of course by that time then BTC could go up or down and 0.0007656 BTC is no longer worth $6, it could be $5 or $8.  Its a moving target when trying to compare BTC and Dollars.

With altcoins your mindset needs to change from thinking in dollars to only thinking in Bitcoin.  Everything is measured against Bitcoin.  You never want to sell your lisk for less BTC than you purchased it for otherwise it would have been better to just hold your BTC rather than trade.

orion

Okay so if that is the case, then wouldn't that mean i need btc to either stay the same price or go lower than when i bought lisk and it goes up from 5 to 6 dollars?


So wouldn't that mean buying lisk at 5 dollars and it going up to 8 dollars could still mean losing money if btc went up a lot?


Well the thing is im planning to get btc sole for investing in altcoins.  And i definitely look at the altcoin price though.  So if i don't look at the altcoin price, then wouldn't it mean i need btc to stay the same or go down?  Thus if you buy lisk at 5 dollars and bought 1000 lisk... assuming btc drops and lisk stays the same price.. then you sell the lisk, then you profit?  Also then what is exactly the point of these altcoins having a usd price then if you are not suppose to compare it to dollars.

The USD price is there purely as a reference.  Use it or don't.

If Bitcoin drops then it makes altcoins look much more attractive.

Again, you need to stop converting everything to USD, work in BTC.  Trade your BTC for lisk at .0007BTC and sell when they are at .0008BTC.  Don't worry about the dollar, fiat is irrelevant to trading altcoins for bitcoins.  Fiat only comes into play when you cash out/in for BTC.

This is a hard concept to grasp but you need to forget the dollar, think in bitcoin.  Otherwise you will always be trading at a loss and will be broke very quickly.

orion

When you say bitcoin drops, it makes altcoin look more attractive.  What do you mean by this?  You mean if you want to buy altcoins?

Yes people say look at btc and not usd. 

But you are telling me its possible to lose money if you invested in a coin like lisk where you bought 1000 shares at 5 dollars or lets just say 0.0007 btc.  Then when the price hits 6 dollars... lets just say 6 dollars is now 0.00065 btc.  Then you sell it for btc.  So here, moneywise you should be up 1000 dollars minus fees.  But you get back less btc than you started with. 

So here, this is NOT what you want to do?

However, you do make around 1k profit minus fees though right since even though you receive less btc than you invested even though the price went up, well that 0.00065 btc is worth more than the 0.0007 btc that you initially used to buy lisk?

So in this example, you can't lock in any profits and send money to your bank account to lock in the 1k minus trading fees?  Because i thought you would transfer whatever btc amount is around 1k to lock in your profits?  Or it does not work this way?

Yes this concept is confusing.  Because here... when you invest in altcoins and it goes up... you need bitcoin to either stay at same price or go lower in order for you to get more bitcoin right?  However, what if you already are holding bitcoin that you don't touch etc and want to invest in altcoins.  Because i obviously do not want bitcoin to go down because i have a lot more money in bitcoin than investing in altcoin.

So do daytraders either daytrade bitcoin/eth/litecoin because they can deal with usd only?  Or they only trade altcoins and don't own bitcoin because if bitcoin goes up, then they lose bitcoin if altcoins go up etc assuming bitcoin goes up enough?

In your example of buying lisk at $5/0.0007BTC and selling at $6/0.00065BTC, yes, you lost money.

If you had just held the BTC it went from $7142.85 to $9230.76.  Your 1,000 lisk only went up $1000USD minus fee's.  But your actual investment lost ground to BTC and dropped from 0.7BTC to 0.65BTC.   If you had just held the 0.7BTC it went up $1461.53, no fee's.  You lost over $461+ dollars by trading. 

Bitcoin is currently sitting at $8,000USD.  I think most of us expect it to pass $10,000USD in the next 60-90 days.  That is a 25% increase.  In order for your trading to be profitable you have to outperform 25%.  Otherwise just sit on your Bitcoin and do nothing while making 25%.


orion

Okay if in that example i gave i would lose money, then how is even investing in altcoins profitable then if bitcoin is only going to go up? 


The thing is i have bitcoin but those are the bitcoin that i held.  Im planning to buy bitcoin with USD so i could get altcoins.  Thus lisk etc.  So that situation still applies?  Because if i could just buy an altcoin like lisk with usd, then i would do that instead.  Thus if that coin price goes up or down, then thats how much profit you should make.


So basically i cannot invest in any altcoin and lock in 10 or 20 percent profit if i believe btc will go higher than the altcoin percentage during that time?  For example, say i buy lisk at 5 dollars or 0.0007btc and buy 1000 of it.  Say after a very short bit... lisk goes to 6 dollars or 0.00065 btc because bitcoin went up a lot as well.  So here, i lose money?  If thats the case, how can you even make money then on altcoins if you are betting against bitcoin?  I mean so you are saying if you buy altcoin and sell it at the same buy price of 0.00065 btc or 5 dollars... but bitcoin dropped a lot in price... then when you sell it for btc, you gain money?  This sounds confusing because what about those people that buy altcoins for 1 dollar and then it went up to 5 dollars etc?  Because bitcoin when it was 300 dollars for example definitely has 5x its price so those people who invested in coins that are 1 dollar and went up to 5 dollar loses if bitcoin was 300 at that time and went higher than 1500 when they were ready to sell that altcoin?  Because if this is the case, this is really ridiculous that you cannot buy altcoins with usd and cashout with usd.  I mean unless there is something im mentioning wrong here... why has there not been traders who demand there should be usd?

This is what i mentioned earlier that doesn't make sense. 


Even if i receive 0.00065 btc per lisk after lisk goes from 5 dollars to 6 dollars or 0.0007 btc to 0.00065 btc, well im getting less btc than i bought with.  However, the btc price is higher than it was before.  So the total amount of btc now i have in USD that i withdrew at that moment is higher than the usd value right before i bought the lisk right?  Because if that is the case, yes i lose btc.  But don't i gain profit here?


Can someone else also comment on this?  Because that means even if a coin goes from 1 dollar to 10 dollars, then you could lose money if bitcoin 15 times itself when you sell your altcoin at 10 dollars?

Can any other daytraders reply to this?  I was told on another forum that this is not correct... because even though im getting less btc than i invested even though lisk goes up, well the price of btc went higher so you do have profit.

you mainly need to worry about volatility of btc prices

Please where can a newbie learn about trade

Yes, true. For every altcoin that's not paired with USD(T). Because then you will have to sell back to BTC, and you will get less BTC back than you had invested in this altcoin.

BUT technically you could have made a nett profit. Let me explain, with figurative numbers:

Let's say you're buying altcoin A with 1BTC. BTC is at $5000 and A is at $1. So you're buying 5000 A's.
After 2 months, the value of A went up from $1  to $2 and you want to take profit.
But BTC went up to $20k in the same time.
If you sell them now (back to BTC), you will get only 0.5BTC for your 5000 A's.
Then you can sell your 0.5BTC back to fiat, which will give you $10k. You have certainly made a profit, $5000 to be exact.
BUT: if you hadn't invested in altcoin A and had left your 1 BTC in BTC, you would've owned $20k now instead of $10k. So relatively you've lost money, against the BTC.

Hi there thanks for the response.


Okay so in this example that you used, yes this is the type of example that i like to look at.  Yes if altcoin a goes from 1 dollar to 2 dollar and i buy 5000 of it at 1 dollar, it cost me 5000.  If it doubles to 2 dollars, i basically doubled my money so i have 10000 total so 5000 profit. 


Yes that makes sense if btc went up to 20k at the time... i would only get back 0.5btc for my 5000 altcoins whereas i invested 1 altcoin to buy those 5000 alts earlier so i get back only half of my altcoins. 


You say yes i made a profit here of $5000.  I know its $5000 minus the buying/selling fees but yes this is what im looking for. 


But is there a reason why those other posters kept telling me i lost money here?  Both posters kept saying i lost because i received less btc than i bought with.  Thus i could buy an altcoin at 0.0007 btc and even if the price went up for the altcoin, if btc goes up a higher percentage, then when i sell that altcoin, i could only receive 0.00065 btc.  They said you have to make sure you receive more btc per alt when you sell than when you buy.  That did not make sense because if i receive less btc... well if btc price is higher, then well it shouldn't matter.


Yes that makes sense if i have that 1 btc and just hold it as oppose to using it to buy 5000 altcoin in your example, i would make more assuming btc goes up from 5k to 20k and the altcoin went up from 1 dollar to 2 dollar.  Yes that make sense i lost money against the btc.  However, if you are daytrading and looking to make profits, then does that really matter assuming you are looking to invest in altcoins only with those certain btc?


Is there a reason why those posters kept mentioning im losing money here in this trade with my numbers?  Because what you said.. makes absolute sense.  The only thing was i didn't think about when looking at profit in that example was hey if you just kept the btc instead... you would have made more assuming btc went up higher percentage than the altcoin.  The way those posters spoke.. it was as if okay if you invest in an altcoin, you need to make sure it increased at a higher percentage than btc during that period.  For example if you buy an altcoin and it goes up from 1 dollar to 3 dollars... you better make sure btc don't go from 5000 to more than 15000 otherwise you lose money.  That made wonder... how is it even possible to make money investing in altcoins then?  Such that what would be the point of trying to make 10 percent or even 20 percent profit on a coin from buying it if btc goes higher than that.  And the thing was when i read altcoin discussion, i never read anything about this.  Everything is which coin will double or 3x or more etc and i didn't read any post about you lose money if btc goes higher percentage than the altcoin. 


Can you answer these other questions i just posted?  And thanks for your post because your post makes absolute sense.  And can others here chime in and comment on fromholland's post and confirm this is true?  Because this makes sense to me as he says yes there is profit whereas those other posters say there isn't.

Ok, what I think they're referring at, is this:
Most small coins can't be bought with us$ but only with BTC. So you would have to buy BTC first, to buy your coin A. So if you buy 1BTC with your $5000. you don't have $5000 anymore but you now have 1BTC. Then you buy coin A for that, and then later sell your coin A for 0.5BTC which is $10k then, yes you've made a nett profit. But only if you sell your BTC back for us$ and withdrawl. Then you have made a $5k profit. But as long as you keep it in BTC, to invest in the next coin, then you've lost 0.5BTC.

Most investors don't think in $ anymore, they think in BTC (me too). So it's their goal to accumulate as much BTC as possible. And as BTC fluctuates, this ammount of BTC may be worth more $ at one point and less $ at the next moment. but as we all think that BTC will always go up on average in the end, we're fine with the fluctuation of BTC even when it goes down a bit, because it will also go back up again at some point..

Plus as you said, if you lose compared to BTC, you could've better left it in BTC. So if you want to make good trades: buy low (compared to BTC), sell high (compared to BTC).

Hope this helps. Good luck!

You say


Ok, what I think they're referring at, is this:
Most small coins can't be bought with us$ but only with BTC. So you would have to buy BTC first, to buy your coin A. So if you buy 1BTC with your $5000. you don't have $5000 anymore but you now have 1BTC. Then you buy coin A for that, and then later sell your coin A for 0.5BTC which is $10k then, yes you've made a nett profit. But only if you sell your BTC back for us$ and withdrawl. Then you have made a $5k profit. But as long as you keep it in BTC, to invest in the next coin, then you've lost 0.5BTC.

Most investors don't think in $ anymore, they think in BTC (me too). So it's their goal to accumulate as much BTC as possible. And as BTC fluctuates, this ammount of BTC may be worth more $ at one point and less $ at the next moment. but as we all think that BTC will always go up on average in the end, we're fine with the fluctuation of BTC even when it goes down a bit, because it will also go back up again at some point..

Plus as you said, if you lose compared to BTC, you could've better left it in BTC. So if you want to make good trades: buy low (compared to BTC), sell high (compared to BTC).




yes i know most small coins cant be bought with fiat and you need btc.  You say when you sell that coin you made a net profit.  But you then say only if you sell that btc back for us and withdraw.  Well you mean if you sell it for btc and turn it to usdt or send it to gdax/gemini to turn it into usd... then there is profit right?


However, if i keep that in btc... yes i did lose 0.5btc that is correct.  But if i use that 10k worth of btc to buy another coin... well im getting the proper usd amount for the next coin.  Let say the next coin i want to buy is ark.  But no matter what happens after i sell the lisk... i do have a net profit no matter what right?  Thus if btc goes down, it has no effect because i already had a gain on the sale of lisk?  Thus if btc goes down and then later i sell it, i sell bitcoin at a loss right?  And thus the buy/sale of lisk will always show that net profit?


This is the other thing that has me a bit confused.  If i buy lisk at 5 dollars and buy 1000 shares.  You want to sell it at 6 dollars.  Well i know you can just put the price in btc to sell right after you get the lisk.  Such as you don't have to check prices and bittrex will automatically sell it for you to 6 dollars.  However let say you wait a while and then you put 6 dollars in btc.  Well there would be a difference in btc price here assuming btc price changes which it always does.  But that has no effect on your profit though right?  Thus you would get the same profit whether you put down 6 dollars you want it to be sold now or 6 dollars later on since btc price changes?

Can any daytrader reply to this?

Think BTC and only BTC.  You need to get the USD out of your head.  When you spend 0.7BTC to buy something and sell it for 0.65BTC that is a loss.
When you are day trading you are only thinking about increasing your BTC holdings.  If I take 0.01BTC and trade with it today I want to end up with more than 0.01BTC at the end of the day.
If you consistently buy and sell at a BTC loss each time then you will run out of money.

orion

If you only think btc, does that mean usd price is not relevant at all then?  Because that doesn't make sense.  For example if lisk is 5 dollars.  What is my purpose of buying lisk?  Not the fact that i think it would go up.. but the fact that it should go higher than btc in terms of percentage?  So if someone wants to bet on altcoins but want nothing to do with btc, they cannot do this?


When you are daytrading stocks, though i never done this, the purpose is to sell at higher price than you buy because you are looking at profit.  So with altcoins if you buy lisk at 5 dollars... say you buy 1000 of it.  Let say after a while lisk drops to 3.50.  But during this time, bitcoin goes from 5k all the way down to 2500.  So in this example, your coin dropped down in price by 30 percent.  Btc dropped down in price in 50 percent.  So are you happy to sell your lisk for btc now that lisk goes from 5 to 3.50 and bitcoin goes from 5k to 2500?  Because you will be getting back more btc than you bought lisk with.  However... is this a gain or loss?  In terms of usd profit/loss, this is 100 percent a loss.  But in terms of btc... this is a gain.  So traders would rather have a situation like this as oppose to lisk going from 5 dollars to 6 dollars and you buy/sell 1000 shares and btc going up from 5000 to 6500?


Because at the end, you are getting profit.  In the first example, is that recorded as a profit or loss such as capital gain or loss.  Because i have to assume the first example is a capital loss even though you made btc in that example. 

BTC will go up, us$ will always stay us$. Which one would you prefer?

Yes my thinking is it would be hard for the altcoin to outrun btc because btc keeps going up.  And the thing is you want to sell lisk at a higher percentage than btc goes up right?  So you are fine with altcoin going from 5 dollars to 3.50 after you buy it if btc goes from 5k to 2500?   I would assume the dream scenario when you buy altcoins would be you buy an altcoin it goes up very much... and bitcoin drops all the way down?


So let me ask another thing.  Say you buy an altcoin that cost 10 cents.  Let say you believe this coin will 10x.  But when you buy it... then eventually the coin goes up 10x so it goes from 10 cents to 1 dollar.  But say btc when you first bought the altcoin cost 5k.  That coin went up to 50k when you are getting read to sell.  Here.. you would not be gaining any btc since that altcoin and btc went up the same rate right?  However... you are still clearly making profit here?  I just want to make sure of this.  Because in this example ... say you bought 10000 shares of an altcoin at 10 cent for 1000 usd.  Here you gained around 9000 usd less fees right?  But you gained zero btc in the process.  I dont find any issue with this because in this example, wouldnt you just cash out that 9k in profit worth of btc into usd and there is your profit?  


Also is there a reason why no one talks about this on the altcoin discussion forum?  Everyone wants to know the next coin that will 3x, 5x, 10x, 50x, 100x.  Because based on the statements being made, whats the point of finding a coin that will 3x if btc 3x as well?  To me, it would mean profit because the coin 3x.  But to others... it would mean no btc profit.  Why is that a big deal when you should be looking at money that you convert to usd cashed into the bank account.   So basically if you are daytrading altcoins or holding altcoins, you should be getting rid of all your btc then?  Because if you want altcoins to go up... btc will need to go down.  So are you suppose to only choose one?  Because if i invest in lisk... well i want lisk to increase in price.  However, the amount of money im investing in lisk is not as much as i have in btc.  And obviously i dont want lisk to go up a bit... but btc goes down a lot more.  Or even if they go up or down the same percentage... well i lose money because i have much more btc than i would in lisk.   So do you have any opinions of this as well?  My thoughts were if i were to buy altcoins... i want btc to go up ... i want altcoins to go up.

If you buy a house for $100k, and you sell it 10 years later for $250K, then you've made a $150k profit. But if all other houses are now $350K, where will you invest now?


Find the coins that will 3x 5x 10x against BTC. If you can't find them, stay with BTC.

What I do, is sell my coin A for BTC when coin A is high (against BTC). Then wait for coin A to go down again (against BTC) and buy back for the same amount of BTC, now you have more coin A which means a profit. Wait till it goes back up, and trade for BTC again. Now you'll have more BTC than before.
Keep doing this and you'll get there.
I never take any money out but if you want to do that, wait till BTC is high against the us$ and then cash out, to maximize your profit.

I get what you mean here with that example.  So profit and not btc is what traders look at.  But are there traders that look for profit?


Well i think it would be hard to find coins that will 3x, 5x and 10x against btc.  If btc is going up, then i have to find a coin that does better against it.  So that means i need not only that coin to go up, but perform a lot better than btc.


Well if you never take money out... then where do you get your profit?  Where do daytraders get profit then?  Because i thought daytraders goal are to make profit and thus cashing out few times for 1-2k for example would be pretty good if they could buy the lows and sell the highs etc.  I thought daytraders want to make a few hundred here, a few thousand here etc.



So which scenario do daytraders prefer?


Buy lisk at 5 dollars and buy 1000 shares for 5000 usd or 0.0007 btc per lisk.  BTC is at 5000 usd.  Lisk goes up to 10 dollars.  BTC goes up to 15000 usd.


Or


But lisk at 5 dollars and buy 1000 shares for 5000 usd or 0.0007 btc per lisk.  BTC is at 5000 usd.  Lisk goes down to 3.50.  BTC goes all the way down to 2000 usd.



So in this example, you made profit on lisk but lose btc when you sell the lisk for btc because btc went up 3x whereas your lisk only 2x.



In the second example, you lose profit on lisk when you sell it for btc because it dropped from 5 dollars to 3.50.   Lisk dropped 30 percent.  BTC however dropped 60 percent.  So when you sell your lisk for btc... you are getting back more btc than you started with.  That is what you say is the goal of daytrading right... get more btc than you started with?



So which situation does a daytrader like here?  Because my thoughts are well in the 1st example, the guy made around 5000 usd profit.  But he lost btc in the process when selling lisk for btc.


In the 2nd example, the guy lose 1500 usd profit right?  However... here he gained btc in the process when selling lisk for btc since btc dropped 60 percent. 

For BTC to 5x it would have to go to $40k in a short term, that's not gonna happen. So find a coin that can do that, they're out there.
I guess it depends if it's your sole ways of generating income. It that would be the case, than you'd have to take out money to pay your mortgage, groceries etc.
For me that's not the case. I see crypto as my piggybank / 401K, so I just let it all sit and accumulate exponentially.
Rule #1 is: buy low, sell high.
So in your 1st example your Lisk has gone up = high. However BTC is high also, and we don't buy high. In this case you would sell your Lisk for USDT, and wait for either Lisk or BTC to go down to get back in again.

In your 2nd example you say: But lisk at 5 dollars and buy 1000 shares for 5000 usd or 0.0007 btc per lisk.  BTC is at 5000 usd. but if BTC is at $5000 and Lisk is at $5, then 1 Lisk would be 0.001BTC.
If then BTC would go down to $2k and Lisk down to $3.50 then Lisk would be 0.00175BTC. This would mean a 1000 x 0.00075 = 0.75BTC profit which would be very good!

Hi there yes its hard for btc to 5x short term.

Yes i meant as a sole way of generating income.  Thus having profits into bank.  So in my example, then doing what i said would be fine?  Thus cashing it out for btc and then immediately sending it to gdax/gemini or even use bittrex for usdt and cash out to bank?

In the 1st example i used, you say sell your lisk for USDT.  You cannot sell lisk for USDT.  Almost all the altcoins besides the main ones you cannot sell for USDT.  You need to sell it for btc first.  So you have to go through btc.  So i assume you mean when you sell it for btc... immediately sell it for usdt on bittrex or send that btc immediately to gdax/gemini to cash out to usd?

In the 2nd example, yes there is 0.75 BTC profit.  The issue here is you are losing USD.  Because when you calculate the capital gain or loss, this is a loss.  How would this be good if you know what i mean?

So here yes you lose usd but you gain BTC.

But in these 2 examples i gave you, which one would a daytrader want... example 1 or 2?  I cant imagine its 2 because 2 would be a 1500 usd loss... example 2 would be a 5000 usd gain.

I would prefer the 0.75BTC profit because I got that BTC at $2000 which means I got it low so now it has the potential to become much more!

Okay but thats because you dont plan to cash out till much later right?  If you had to cash out for bills and everything, which you choose?

But for someone who daytrades, which situation do they want?  1 or 2?  The thing is i still can't understand anyone wanting 2 more than 1 because in the first example, you made money and can cashout to bank account.  Once you cash it out or send it to bittrex, you essentially locked in your profits right?

But when you are calculating gains or losses, in the 2nd example you have a 1500 dollar loss.  In the 1st example, you gainded 5000 dollars.  So i really dont know why people would choose the other one. 

Because the potential to go up to bigger heights is much higher.

It's very unlikely to be a professional daytrader with only $5000 invested. It's likely to be much more. So this would mean, that you would reinvest most of your profits, and take out only a small portion to live off. So everything you reinvest, you want to reinvest LOW so it can grow HIGH.

I don't day trade, I find it very stressful. More often than not I hold my bitcoins for as long as I can. However, I have traded in the past, and not just cryptocurrencies. If you are receiving less btc than you had before initiating the Lisk trade, I consider it a loss. The btc - usd price has no bearing here.

Lets assume the price of bitcoin drops, what then? Would you still consider it a profitable trade? I doubt it.

This is why i did stop on becoming an active day trader because it do really give me stress rather than enjoyment on engaging into trading field.I have experienced forex trading and stocks. Being scalper isnt really easy since you would really need to be active when theres sudden movement on prices.How much more on bitcoins or altcoins. Prices are way too volatile you should have active eyes,active thinking and have active hands. hehe

I understand the potential part.


Well when i say invest 5000 usd... i mean thats one trade.  You could have 25k or 50k etc but you use 5000 for 1 coin such as lisk at 5 dollars etc.  Then you try to grow your account balance etc.  Such that imagine someone starts with 5000 and then grows it to 10k, then 20k etc.  Well actually i meant you have a bankroll for trading.  But you already have money in your bank that pays for expenses.   So even though you want to have profit to cash out, you still can pay off stuff with money you already have in the bank etc. 

If you receive less btc than you start with, you consider that a loss.  But when you calculate capital gains and losses, well that is certainly a gain right?  I can't imagine you say you had a loss here because you receive less btc but btc went down etc. 

Wait... so you telling me if lisk goes from 5 dollar to 3.50 when you sell it when btc goes from 5k to 2k... that is not a profitable trade?  Well usd wise, that is absolutely a loss.  But with many of you mentioning getting more btc than you started with is more important... then how is this not profitable because you would end up with 0.75 more btc because btc dropped higher percentage than lisk?

You mean when looking at the btc or altcoin price?  Or the altcoin price in btc?  When you did daytrade, did you do bitcoin or altcoin or both?  And can you tell me what is more important here?  Is it usd profit/loss or btc profit/loss.  And in my 2 examples, which would you has a daytrader prefer.  Because i always thought when you sell your altcoin back for btc... the most important thing is usd.  Thus if you get back 5k usd more than you started with, thats a profit.

Today BTC is around $8k.

Think 10 years from now. Will BTC be worth more than that, or less?
So which one would you want to accumulate, BTC or $?

Well it should be worth more.  But you want to have money coming into your bank account, well you can't just hold.  Thus i mean for someone to cash out consistent profits.  So if thats the case, isn't usd more important? 

No, because you want to cash out as little as needed, the rest stays invested. Money in your bank account doesn't accumulate, so basically you're losing potential profit there.
Daytrading doesn't mean, invest us$ into something, hopefully make profit, and then take all us$ out again. It's building up a portfolio and let that grow by making swing trades on a day to day basis.

I get what you mean as the rest stay invested.  However what if you want to continually take money/profits out then?  Because if someone is daytrading full time, they are suppose just make profit and not cash out or something?  Or cashout once every few months etc? 


Well im sure there are daytraders that make profit and want to take out money again over and over right?

Holding is just an action of pussy person want to earn some pennies from Bitcoin ( not including BTC years-holders). So calculating the suitable profit for day-trading is necessary to protect your profits.

Now why would they want to cash out? Because they want their money to stop growing??

Only time when someone usually returns to fiat (us$) is when they think the market is overheated and expect a dump (or some investors choose to keep a certain percentage of their portfolio in fiat, just in case everything dumps suddenly, then they can buy the dip with that fiat).

You are right BTC to altcoin trading is quite different. Here the profit depends on both coins. Let me tell one thing if you buy 1 BTC worth of altcoins today. Next month your altcoin price will increase $1, and the bitcoin price is increased $2k, or $3k is it worth for you? To do altcoin trading, USDT is best this is my opinion.

The issue here is most altcoins are not traded against USDT. 


So how would you lock in profits like with lisk in my examples.

Hey all someone mentioned using usdt would be a way to park your value.  Do most daytraders do this or not?

If USDT doesn't have a serious problem, then it's okay to store your dollar in terms of USDT. But you can't know if USDT will be solid like this. Some rumors are now on the market about USDT that it's not backed with real USD.