Bitcoin Forum

I am seriously considering getting out of this game. Give some strength bros!

EDIT: I sold some of my Bitcoins but I will still hold fairly good amount of BTC for the longest time.

If you scared go to church

I won't give any strength, but I'll give you some USD for some cheap BTC. ;D

I've been buying like crazy.

Hang on tight. Don't lose faith. This is time to buy up more coins while we go through this period of slow down.

I'm still holding. Looking at the bubbles the last 2 years, the price will recover and go higher than before. If you are so damn sure it will go low, you can sell your coins and try to buy in lower but it's a big risk.
I'm holding out for sure until Winklevoss IPO hits which values coins at $100 each. Lets see if the institutional investors like Bitcoin, easy to purchase a stake in.

Chill out man, worst case scenario, hold your bitcoins for a year and make a massive profit.

Just wait a bit.

I'm buying more, just waiting to see how many bears get in on the pile.

http://thepoeticsoftelevision.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/goobacks.jpg

sell today or tomorrow you will woke up in the 70`s

If you are panicking now you might as well sell.  We've got a lot more volatility to work out before we can rocket again.  If you can't sit tight, sell out or put your coins in a paper wallet and walk away for 3-6 months.

:D

It's gonna be a blood bath out there!

Lots of panic selling and capitulation still to play out here.

Imo you have invested too much into Bitcoin, if a price drop leads to panic.
Just hold an amount that you can afford to lose.

Exactly.  If you are panicking you are overexposed.

I was planning to buy-in a $3 (just before the $30 peak). Still have not gotten my computers staightened out :P

Shoulda, coulda , woulda.

Maybe THIS month I will finally buy Bitcoins.

That is probably right. There was a point where all of my net worth was in Bitcoins.

So I will make a compromise. I will sell today some of my Bitcoins but I will still hold fairly good amount of BTC for the longest time.

It might get much much worse. A great test for people's faith in bitcoin, the people who truly care about bitcoin and are not in it just for the quick buck will remain. If you aren't one of them, just sell and leave now. You won't be missed. :P

you will lose in longterm if bitcoins drop

sounds like wise advice.

+1 to this.

I'm 100% in BTC.
This is not the most sensible position.

Unless it was a "just finished paying off my debts, first ~1000"-kind of net worth, that's pretty scary/ballsy.

from what it looks like in the 30's

I truly believe in Bitcoin and will still remain. I am just diversifying my assets.

Well put 1 zero more and and multiple it couple of times and we are talking about right amount of money. It was pretty scary/ballsy for me as a College student. But off course amount were only peanuts for real high rollers (In couple of years I hopefully will be high roller too).

The higher the price the more I panic and sell to make profits.  The lower the price the more relaxed and confident I feel given the price is going lower week by week and not second by second.  This is why the masses always lose money because they feel good when price is high and buy and panic and freak out when it is low and sell.

Buy low, sell high, why is that so complicated?  Emotion is a mutha fucker and will destroy your profits, don't be driven by it.  Focus on the tangible not your feelings.

stop. drop. shut 'em down open up shop. oh. no. that's the ruff ryder's roll.

every dip comes with a launch, every launch comes with a dip. shit will balance out in time.

Good advice.

We have enough invested it would be a bit painful if we lost it all, but it really does not affect our quality of life so in all honesty, it is not a big deal.  It just means when hubby goes to buy his new car in a few months he won't be able to pay cash for it unless BTC goes up a whole lot. ;)

I would add that people should not panic and sell all their BTC holdings regardless of it's volatility.  BTC is great for diversifying investments.  That is one of the major things financial advisers will say to do.

This. +1

It is good advice, it also allows any trading/buying/selling to be done with less emotion (for most people).

1) "Reginald Browne, head of exchange-traded product trading at Knight Capital Group Inc. (KCG), the largest lead market maker for ETFs and their cousins ETPs on the New York Stock Exchange, said he expects the examination to take years."

And even then, it may never get approved.

2) Seriously, THAT is your worst case scenario?

If you are "scared" about an investment/asset/purchase (any investment/asset/purchase) it likely is too large.  Life is short why inflict optional stress of yourself.  Ask yourself what about of Bitcoins could you hold such that you won't be scared, you won't panic, you are willing to ride it out to its inevitable conclusion (regardless of if that is success or failure).  Most likely you can logically reach a number in your mind.  Nobody else can tell you what it should be because everyone's risk threshold and personal wealth is different.    A venture capitalist with a billion dollar net worth might not blink at hold 100,000 BTC and an out of work family man might not be able to handle 10 BTC.

My guess is your current holdings are significantly larger than that comfort threshold.  As long as it is you will be stressed out.  Someone might reassure you today but tomorrow will come.  The price may go up and you feel better temporarily but at the first sign of weakness the doubts will come back.

What's going to happen? Someone finds a problem with SHA-256? Quantum computers find a way to calculate the hash needed to unlock all blocks at the same time?

Government outlaws Bitcoin? (You know even for that, I would keep going. Supply and demand)

If you are going to rely on the S-1 please READ the S-1.  The ETF doesn't value coins at anything.  To pay the registration fee they need to provide an approximate IPO because the fee is a % of the fund value.  The price they used in the S-1 was the volume weighted average for the price across the three largest exchanges on the day of the filing and for the sole purpose of paying the SEC their fee.


If they would have filed the day Bitcoin hit $266 they would have used that price for the filing as well.   If/when the ETF is approved, the initial baskets of shares will be sold pre-IPO at the CURRENT price whatever that may be $20 or $20,000.

News to me. Ok, i'll take a closer look and re-evaluate my position. Thanks.

Yeah because it is always wise to grap the falling knife... (I don't believe that Bitcoin is falling knife, just speaking in general.)

This is why is it not wise to panic. Look at the price slowly crawling back up to the price of the last drop today.

Only short if you are 100% sure it will drop and willing to bet money on it. Otherwise, keep your finite currency instead of printable currency.

I have rich and I have been poor.

When I was rich I think I felt it didn't suit me. My ego said no.

It's like being with a very beautiful woman... and messing it up because you just don't feel worthy. That can happen.

If panic is coming on you might have to admit to partial sell to get to that level of trading that feels natural again. It takes a loss to find where that point is.

Before I lost a lot of money I had a gut feeling. I ignored it. It gave me about a months notice, that's quite a lot. Likewise I would guess you've had this feeling for a while.

Introspection to inner knowledge is not easy. You got to delete anything that gets in the way - logic, guilt, fear...

That's not what "buy low, sell high" means. In fact, the two are incompatible. If done right, buy low is precisely not catching a falling knife, but picking it up from the floor.

Well, it's all just metaphors anyway.

What I really don't get is the "I'll hold, no matter what" stance a lot of people seem to take. Ultimately, it probably runs down to the difference between investors and speculators. The former believe in the product itself, and would somehow consider it treason to sell their entire position, the latter are agnostic about the product itself, and just try to make a profit.

I strongly suggest to break down this distinction in your mind.

Even if you believe in a bright future for bitcoin, i.e. you have reasons to be an "investor", there is absolutely nothing wrong with going short now, to buy back cheaper later. It's not without risk, but if you keep in mind not to be too greedy and wait too long to buy back, you'll be fine. Because, be honest with yourself: does it really look like the price is going to skyrocket tomorrow? Probably not.

Sell now. Buy back later. You'll sleep better, and your total amount of btc will be higher in addition.

dont panic just sell your coins and buy-back at lower position

Yup.
The odd thing is that if really you are a Bitcoin believer, you should want to increase your stash.
Well, downtrends like this are golden opportunities.

fapfapfap

Why panic, hedge your BTC wit LTC

Considering the downtrend, I also think about selling.

Worst hedge ever. If bitcoins dies, litecoin will die too.

Selling might be a good idea until this downtrend stabilizes. It seems like every week the price is dropping so until this trend is reversed i would cash out and buy back at a lower price.

I liken it to keeping gasoline soaked cash in your house as a hedge against the financial loss if your house catches fire.

+1

good idea, i did it too around 3rd may when the price reversed and i lost 20 bitcoins when i had to re buy for higher price.

classic panic reneging. If you really believed it was going to go down, you should've held your dollars :0

don't worry, i did the same thing right after the Pirate@40 collapse. Went from 15 -> 9, bounced to $11, panic sold, panic bought back in at $13,  and then to the stars :p

It was then I learned conviction.

Name:                Gordonium
Date Registered:  March 30, 2013, 04:51:14 PM
Motto:               Greed is Good

Wow, you must be some cool Wall Street dude ... or some 14 year old that found out to late about the newest Ponzi scheme ...  ;D

When you cut citations like that you make me sound like a retarded. You mothafuckaa!

Says man with blue d-bag as an avatar (literally).

Here's what I did:

Oct 2012: Bought 100 BTC @ ~$12 ($1200)

April 2013: Kicked self for not selling any at $200 - decided I'm in for the long run

Two days ago: Sold 30 @ $93 ($2700)

I doubled my money and now I'm holding my remaining 70 BTC until the end of time, because I don't have any risk at this point.  You may want to sell enough to get your initial money back -- it really made me feel a lot better :)

Speaking of avatars: Michael Douglas? Seriously? Are you gay?

If you are asking this, it is my opinion that you are in bitcoin for the wrong reasons.

Do you have capital that you can't afford to lose? If so, get out while you can.

I have never invested more than I could afford to lose.

just sell, and buy them back after 6 month. (sub10$)
And you will be RICHer later on

Don't do this. If Bitcoin goes to under $10 it is dead and
is never coming back.

People seem to think price is some arbitrary number that goes up and down. It isn't. It is an indicator that follows bitcoin's popularity and the faith people have it in.
If bitcoin goes to 10 it means everyone will have given up on it. And nothing is going to bring them back.

No. I am just a fucking winner!

http://www3.images.coolspotters.com/photos/228688/gordon-gekko-profile.jpg

Just like it went dead from $32 to $2 ?

Y'all are making this too complicated. Just buy low, sell high. It really is that simple.

If price is HIGH (you are feeling "OMG I just made SO MUCH money on bitcoinz!") it might be time to sell. If price is low (hopefully you are thinking "Wow, those idiots just lost tons of money, and I didn't, because I sold high) then buy.

Also, litecoin may not be great for hedging, but it's great for making money. Oh yeah, and in some respects, consider it a hedge - a hedge against, for instance, the disastrous ruin that a coin taint system would bring upon bitcoin for a short time after being implemented. Even the threat of BTC becoming unusable, crashing, and people moving to alt-coins hopefully deters a lot of the socialist weenies like Peter Vessenes who are thinking of implementing such a program. The fact that alt-coins are ready, up and running, on exchanges, and have value, shows socialist weenies that if they try to sabotage bitcoin, there are a dozen other coins that are more than willing to step up and absorb some of the value, and provide much of the "money laundering" functionality that they are so scared of. In the same way that shutting down one bitcoin-qt node won't shut down the whole network or shutting down Piratebay won't kill torrents, or jailing the top dogs in a cartel every couple years won't "win the war on drugs," shutting down BTC won't shut down cryptocurrencies - will just make a huge, painful dent but dents can be hammered out in due time. If LTC and altcoin-haters had their way and no altcoins existed, it might be a different story.

If BTC forks and there is a 20% drop, well, there may only be a 5% drop in LTC. I'm not comparing to Fiat - obviously fiat would drop 0%. But there's a reason most of us aren't 100% in fiat. ;)

I am pretty sure Gordonium bought his first Bitcoins shortly after he registered on Bitcointalk. So in April 2013. Probably at 250$.

Explains his butthurt ;D

I bought my first Bitcoins at 10-15 dollars.

Nice (again gay) photo.

By the way: Gold dropped from 1800$ to 1200$ during the last 6 month ...  ;)

Same will happen to your Bitcoins.

If you have that many gold ingots, you don't give a flying fuck about the market price. Buy anything you want anyway  ;)

Exactly.

http://www.pagecovers.com/covers/swag_quotes/scarface_money_power_respect.jpg

You really should, before 'the collapse'.


(SO I CAN BUY THEM ALL!!! :D )

only to panic sell later at a loss ;)

Oh the woe that is BTC ;)

lol^

Rofl, priceless  :D .  It's embarrassing how many of those are true  :), especially the 'foul bachelor frog' types.

Courage & certainty are said to be the things needed for trading, to cancel out fear. Needs to be real, not ego. Another case against ego. DMT off SR anyone?

I'm fine, I invested <10% of my annual salary which was sitting idle in a checking account. I'm not going to take my gun to my head if I lose it.

We will probably go right back to the next bubble anyway. This frenzied sell off has fear reeking off of it. People were so happy to trade at 130 all of 6 weeks ago.

volume is still very low. wish i had more cash. i'd be buying with a smile

capitulate damn you!!  :D

Volatility in Bitcoin doesn't really faze me anymore. I'm long and I'm buying. See you on the other side.

I concur.

Guys, don't shit in your pants. Few whales or maybe even central bankers are dumping bitcoins on purpose so you shit your pants. Bitcoin is a trademark and with bigger value.

Amen.

You all need to start businesses that provide products and services for bitcoin, earn Bitcoins, not buy them with fiat. If the price is low... Earn more of them, then sell high. Yes, I know ideally the price of goods and services would not he pegged to the dolloar but for now it ie, and take advantage of that. Bitmit is a great place to start.

This is the first time in a long time that bitcoin is a strong buy.  Down 30% in the last few days, market cap well below 1 billion, and significant positive news in the last few days.  I don't care how many negative articles are published about the Winklevii ETF, it is a positive for BTC long term.   

There's a good chance it will never be approved.

yes please!  I wish you could email it to me.  Someone should invent a decentralized cryptographic bio-chemical modifier / enhancer...

"Good chance" is a bit strong from a wording perspective.  I think it might take awhile, but no matter how you look at it, a BTC ETF is lower risk than a leveraged ETF.  Leveraged ETFs have been mathimatically proven to lose value if you hold overnight.  At least a BTC ETF is not guaranteed to decline in value.  Additionally, the BTC ETF would be very similar to GLD and SLV which are very popular trading instruments and arguably led to significant increases in the value of the underlying commodities.  

If it takes a year or two to get approved... OK, no problem.

Stops the Winklevi selling off their large stake on exchanges.

For some very rich BTC pioneers,they just want to cash-out regard less of us , and from mathematics view ,BTC=3600*365/11000000=11%
It's damn inflation currency, it request 100 millions new cash in flow to maintaining its price level  in the future 3 years....

Price dump is inevitable, Not means about panic, this just the truth..... we will touch 50 USD within months ,which just before the bubble...

Get out now.  It will only go down.  If you want back in, then buy in again at 50-65.

I'm still holding, now time to close my eyes and open back after 1 years passed.

You are not alone!

At this price I won't even consider selling, that's why I'm buying more. If it goes to 50 I am prepared.

Since many seem to be panicking and saying it will go down 100%, I think It's a good time to buy because sellers will dry up soon.

but what if it goes down some more and wont go up for 10 - 15 years?

capitulate damn you!!  ???

What if it goes up and never comes down?  There are risks both ways.

Granted, being as bullish as I am, I always think "this might be the last time we see 70" and so on.  But I do think there will be a day when the double digits, triple digits (and so on) are gone forever.

Holding BTC is not creating any value for you ,if you really think price will go up ,Get some AM directly shares to get more capital gain based on your prediction.

i agree. but that's not the case. btc is going down and there's no sign the trend will reverse in sight.  

Instead of Panic, I choose to pee on my pant, then hold on....

   We'll just have to wait for a molecular printer...

Buy some LTC or FTC as a hedge, Both are seeing a price jump right now.

https://btc-e.com

Actually, ideally, BTC will be around $1, like the Second Life currency L$. Then people will start using BTC as what it was meant to be - an anonymous currency!

(I should shoot myself for saying that, given that I haven't sold yet...)

I love it when this happens.  Just bought a few coins.  Will continue to buy all the way down to the bottom.

Just be sure to send your coins to 14YDg2knHWoYaDZpUFvuQfFP7kUpPpYL83 before you do it.

I will take the burden off your shoulders.

Bad idea, if bitcoin dies, litecoin definitely won't survive.

sorry but wtf are some people saying? if bitcoin price is $10 then its dead? Then what? you are going back to paypal or banks that increase fees all the time? Good luck then. Dont forget to lick they feet so they wont take your money when their bank will have financial trouble. Which is quite possible considering how many people don't have jobs and will not have because of better automated factories efficiency. Not to mention national debt which is increasing all the time and costs of it increases yearly too. I know that it seems crisis is over but main problems that caused it are not solved.

Best strategy for surviving in this chaos..
Most miners get burned because they have a very simplistic approach btw - mine and if coin goes up we sell and have profit.
Nowadays this is not enough - you must have a business to support with your coins which will help you break even and profit.
So many get rich quick guys in cryptos...

"Greed is good"

Enjoy your greed, you moron!

You seriously believe that Bitcoin, the prototypical prototype, won't be replaced by a superior and polished competitor such as LTC one day? ;D Probably happening now.

Did you ever leave paypal or close your bank account?! Are you for real?!!!
Jeez. I knew people were stupid, but...

If by superior and polished you mean roughly the exact same.

I chuckled a little.

wow you obviously buy crack off Silk Road

or should I say...Atlantis

harharharhar

id love some crack if it wwasnt 5000BTC cuz the value is sad right now!

Maybe Satoshi designed it to eventually balance out at around $100 just to make it easy to think about/convert?

I am buying silver also. The more it goes down, I think great! Buy more!

Hey Bitbryan - How did you type the B with lines?

Congrats for reaching top spot on google when searching for "fucking panicking" :)

[ b t c ] without the spaces (press the button next to bold italic underscore)

That's because you visited the thread before;)

Nope , just tested with a local webproxy , same result :)

Oke, my bad.

lovely bear....I think we are already starting the journey of long bearish...

Also ,Congratulation to this thread become world panicking example...what outsiders will think of us??haha

I laughed

click the b symbol on the top of your reply

This reminds of when it went down to 50 something before. I got some cheap coins back then and my fiat is ready

That feeling of panic is a good sign, it's a sign you are not comfortable with your current allocation.

It's a sign that you might be able to look at BTC with less awe, and more realism.  I can't emphasis this enough, holding onto BTC for longer than a day is not investing, it's a bet that you will be able to sell at the right time.  Don't get me wrong, I make bets that I will be on the right side of the volatility trade all the time.  My point, is the fundamentals of long-term BTC holdings are not sound investing.

Investing is generally the based on the belief that "stored value" will be worth more in the future, than it's present value.  But right now the value is based on supply & demand.  In other words, the Psychology of the BTC holders.  If every single BTC holder decided to sell at the same time, the value would be nil.  If more people want to buy, the value increases.  But you can say that for a number of things, wheat, oil,  etc.  However, those items have an end use, ie convert to energy (machine or human energy).

What is the intrinsic value of BTC when there is no general tax revenue to back up BTC?  What value do you want to assign to it today? tomorrow?  Okay, what about everyone else?  And that's a problem, a problem that creates the huge price swings.  You can do a technical analysis, and on a short-term basis it works, but fundamentals will rule the long term. 

Instead of talking about BTC, lets talk about investing in forex.  The reason most traders speculate in one currency over another is due to the economy.  Is the county that sponsors the currency increasing it's value above the money supply?  (using a very loose definition of value & money supply here)  So what is the value of BTC economy?  There is none, or very little - it's really just a knowledge based economy.

There is another measure we could use to place a fiat value on a single BTC, and that is the cost to produce one BTC in the fiat.  ie how much did it cost in electricity, hardware & knowledge to produce that single BTC.  However, the dynamics are rapidly changing due to the large scale introduction of ASICS. 

Also, there is under appreciated dynamic due to small scale miners being forced to either become a large scale miner with a large investment in equipment or exit the mining game.   Large scale investment, usually means people who are liquid enough that they can hold BTC for the right price, ie they don't need the money and are not forced into selling.  In other words, their BTC holdings are a fraction of their overall portfolio.  But, this also means they can take a loss if they feel that it's no longer worth the risk of further downgrades.

With a decent number of BTC transactions used to facility the trading of illicit goods, you have to look at the big picture.  If you take it to an extreme conclusion, the miners & Bitcoin Foundation are supporting the trading of illicit goods.  And that's why I think many BTC evangelists hate the idea of being licensed, regulated or subject to some taxing authority.  However, having one exchange responsible for 80% of BTC exchanges, is just asking for trouble.  Basically, there is a real possibility that the exchange of BTC to USD may become impossible, either due to legal issues or lack of access to exchanges.  And that will cause a supply & demand imbalance that cannot be corrected.

I would point out a recent technical change has created an interesting long-term positive for BTC.  The current bitcoind software is configured to generate a limited number of BTC.  However, the number of orphaned BTC or lost wallets is increasing daily.  The new minimum transaction cost will create even more orphaned BTC, as it becomes uneconomical to consolidate small wallets.  If you assume Gavin increases the transaction costs over time, even more orphaned BTC will occur.  This has the long-term effect of decreasing the supply of BTC.

Back to basics:
Btc is worth something because it has a use.  It can be used as money.  Money has value.

If you want to talk about price, it boils down to this: How much will it be used, and for what?  Is it the best money available? For everything, or only for certain niches? etc. ..

EDIT: of course, wheat and oil will always be used, bitcoin might not be, so its more risky in that aspect.  But imo, you can't say it doesn't have value.

It doesn't have value.

According to the bitcoin foundation:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2877271/Bitcoin-Foundation-Response-to-California-DFI.pdf

The BTC economy is very very thin, in fact it does not exist.  Pirate, GLSBE, the various bitcoin banks failed for the same reason, having faith should not be the basis of an economy.  BTC currently has one and only one value added purpose: to facility the exchange of goods with the added bonus of little or no regulation.  However, once it does become regulated, it's value will diminish to the illicit goods trader.  Which means, it's value will then be determined by what the long-term holders think it's worth.  But, as I tell all real world traders, a previous price point or trend, does not indicate a future value.

In other words, it's value is based on what a counterparty is willing to pay - on any given day.  An investor looks at the fundamentals, a trader learns to love the volatility, a speculator wins big or looses big(but mostly just depends on luck when he buys and sells).  But a trader also knows when to step out of the way, when the train rolls downhill.

If I owned more than a double digit amount of bitcoin, I would indeed have sold when the price was bouncing around $95-$110, aiming to buy in again lower and increase my stash. I had an inkling that the price would slowly fall, but imo normal TA doesn't apply as accurately to BTC as it does to any other commodity/share/investment, so I chose to play it safe and hold.

I did some day trading (albeit tentatively) during the major bubble earlier this year, and increased my BTC holdings by about 30%, which was nice. Obviously this was due to the massive volatility, which has understandably subsided.

However, with the small amount of bitcoin I own (some of which I mined, some of which I bought at around 30-40 GBP [gutted I didn't save some of the 200+ bitcoin I spent in the last year through you know where] when it was priced at £6-8), and some of which I won on Seals (1btc>5 in less than a month) I don't feel it's worth the risk to try and make an extra couple of coins with the risk of losing more. Hence I am holding and going long due to my low capital.

If I owned triple or quadruple+ digit BTC I would definitely be trying to play the market and earn some significant assets.

But for me, right now, it seems obvious to hold the majority (70%) of my stash - the rest is going into silver and Litecoin.
Even if the value drops to 1/4 of what I bought in at, I won't panic, just buy probably more coin.

I think we are closer to global economic meltdown than most people think - I'm not saying it will happen overnight, could 1, 2, 5, 10 years, but when it does happen (which I do believe it will) things will kick off big style. And that's when the properties of bitcoin will show their true colours.

What an excellent discussion in a few of the more "mature" responses.

Much more interesting read than what i expected from such an OP.

Pirate didn't fail at all. Pirate did a very successful scam, he did steal more than BTC500k and now its filthy reach. How is that failing?

Thank you.  ;D

ha thanks for buying up all my cheep coins ;0 now i can buy back in sub 50.

Now here is where it gets scary, and if you as a investor/trader/speculator ignore the feeling of panic, you risk becoming a bag holder.  And I feel for the bag holders, I have been there (in other markets) and it's not a nice feeling.  Combine my fundamental analysis with a technical analysis...when it goes below the 200 day SMA, you have a confirmed bear trend, and it's more than likely going lower.

+1 i got out and i was like damn i took a loss. some gain some loss. so glad i did most befor the 130 fall and kicked my self for not selling more at 101 and 94 respectivly. now im like thank the gods i got out alllllllllll the way out. ok three btc for old times sake but i wil buy if it goes to sub 40 i will buy a lot!!!!!

edit: wow add kicked in there, the point is ya get out now and kick your self or wait and get out at half this at 35 up to you. im not a bear im not a bull im a realist.

I sold over half my holdings at 31.50 long, long ago... its all a matter of perspective.  At the time I had a 400% profit at 31.50 ;p

This only looks low due to where we've been recently.  Go back a year and a half, and 70 looks awesome :)

The price volatility is because of people like you who get their coins very cheap....they can dump it any time with profit, I think when those earlier adopters runs out BTC ,the price will eventually steady....but how long ?no one knows it......

From a chart/technical perspective, since we broke through the recent lows of 88 and 79, the price needs to retest the post-bubble low of 50, IMHO.

If we hold and bounce from there on huge volume (capitulation/panic/pain that clears out the sellers), we should begin to head higher.

Just in case this high-probability scenario doesn't play out, I have been buying a little in 5 increments on the way down. If this scenario does happen, I will load up in the low 50s.

 

oh i agree, i remember when they were 2.50 to 3.50 each. and when they went to five buck i was like what the fuck this is so god damn expensive i spent 250 once to get 78 coins thinking it was a rippoff. haha wow.

my point is its not going to stabalize or bounce we are going to go to fifty. you can hold and you will profit for sure in the long. we will be at 825 this time next year.

Just sold all you coins ,I am sure that after one year ,you will needs to pay double price for it...for sure....

no i watch the price daily, im not going to check back a year latter and be like oh wow it up. unless it goes up 200 in a day...doubtful...then i will get back in once it has hit bottom repeats 2011 and starts climbing for a solid month. then and only then will i get back in.

Ok, I am going to ignored the BTC price ,as long as I only have 500 btc in total.....store in paper wallet, let's god to deciding the future of my fund.

The price is just going to tank. This is only the beginning. Get out now while you can.

I disagree with you ,you can sell as much as you can ,but BTC value isn't only 70 usd...sell below any than this just insane .. assume all those miners would they allows BTC become valueless ? if they allow that then all money they prior invest in mining devices is lose...People panic need a proper reason to doing that ,why should you panic ?can you give me some reason??? why should we sell below 70?

Because if you don't you'll be kicking yourself when LTC is at $5.00 and surpasses BTC. ASIC is killing BTC. It's becoming centralized. It will turn into the rouge world currency. It's already used for laundering and scamming. Who wants to fund the bad guys? Not us.




( this entire post was a lol, please, sell your BTC so I can buy them all ;) )

This excuses isn't logically right, about money laundering. Cash is perfect for money laundering (more secure to store the value) ,why people still use cash??we should stop use cash because we do not wants to fund the bad guys.
ASIC centralized mining, so what??? Mining gold are also monopoly by skillful workers ...would you say that you will stop buying Gold because it is centralized???

This assumptions are false and isn't logically, the only thing will happen is ,you will regret because other people are going to take out advantage of your no reason panic.

Selling right now, is mean you admitted that BTC is a bad ideal except if you are some earlier adopters that you just want to cash out with profit.

I traded all my bitcoin for cheap USB Block Erupters. I can either keep them to mine if the price of bitcoin goes back up, or dump them on Ebay for a minimum 1.5x profit in USD.

Get as much btc as possibly ....Those people are insane and panic without a proper reason...
when people are fear ,it is the best time to be greed... :) :)

I'm slightly panicking now.
What is the result? I'm going on a buying spree. I buy things in BTC with a fixed price (Casascius Coins, Block Erupter). When price would go down significantly, they will adjust the BTC-price...

-------------------------------
Bitcoin's ideal is worth much more than its current exchange value

I agree - pick your bottom and place orders accordingly. Also, don't panic - We've hit a momentary roadblock as it related to USD cashouts - in a few months we'll all be wishing we'd bought more at 60/btc

This for sure ,let's those weak get out or those superior earlier adopters get out ....The future of BTC is who have the faith in it....
This no reason panic ,is just because of the manipulators, what ever you believe or not ...half months later , all people selling today will regret by that time....

Most of those selling are just buying back cheaper. There's not so much people cashing out for good, that already happened in 2011.

And BTW, anybody entering the this market today is still an early adopter.

I know I'm doing the bolded part.  Yes, I am a HUGE Bitcoin believer -- I want to hold a LOT of bitcoin in the future.  But when the trend is clearly down and strongly so, and I have a bit of free time, why not make it so that I can hold even MORE bitcoin in the future?

does anyone else think this might be tied to Bitinstant being down?

I'm telling you guys, silent majority of drug buyers keep bitcoin going

but nobody wants to believe me

+1

Possible adaptation of 0coin by an alt coin may prove you sooner than we think...

USD, Euro or even gold are also used in the black market. Do you want bann those too?

Sorry for my ignorance...

Everyone knows this. Nobody talks about it.

The 3 things that keep any currency working.

1. Drug Trade.
2. Sex Trade.
3. Gambling.

The main issue right now isn't that people can't get USD into bitcoin... it's that vendors are having issues getting it out... this is making them increase prices to cover the inconvience... which is driving the market price down.

The other issue is that whenever the hash rate grows we have more downward pressure because coins are being created at a faster rate. If the target is 14 days... and hash rate it growing by 10% you have difficulty adjustment in 12.6 days instead of 14. That's 15% more coin that can be sold/traded by miners.

It will right itself soon - people are starting to recall that mining is all about power consumption.

I was thinking more along the lines of if nobody is using bitinstant (which automatically uses MtGox for it's btc) then there would be less transactions going on and more possible market manipulation on the parts of both of those companies.

Am I the only one who thinks either of them is way too much of a monopoly for being companies of a "decentralized" currency?

Because if I had to take a guess at how the Feds want to attack BTC I can almost guarantee you it involves MtGox or Bitinstant or both most likely

Liberty Reserve got shut down with relative ease, how is Bitinstant different considering they are both US based?

also, this company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LexisNexis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LexisNexis)) SHOULD NOT even be mentioned in the same sentence as bitcoin

or am I missing the whole point here?

what does LexisNexis have to do with bitcoin i am curious?

Hang tight, Gordonium, I see good times ahead.

Hey you misunderstood what I wrote! I mean that an alt+anonymity will be the new guy in town making BTC obsolete, because I THINK that black market is the main driving force behind cryptos economy...

But I could be wrong...

 ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-rB6Wgb044

Black market goods are the ONLY reason why someone would go through the hassle of getting bitcoin beside getting them for speculative/investment purposes.

EDIT: At least today.

 it also can be use as a method of storing value, since lot of people are suffering in incapable of the local currency.

store of value = investment

You can keep saying this.. and you can keep using authoritative capital letters.

But that doesn't make it true.

The world is big and there are many reasons to acquire BTC. Furthermore, it isn't necessarily much of a hassle.

Wait what?!

https://i.imgur.com/u1KAQ1H.png

such as?


Depends on how much time you have on your hands

This. lucas.sev is spot on IMO, but maybe you have something interesting to say besides the "bitcoin revolution" cult drivel?

In New York you can do everything with Bitcoin: travel by limousine, buy pizza at panago, go the the bar, get a good lawyer, and live at a hotel.

We have quite a lot of people here who want to buy VPNs/VPSes. Or domain names. That's just for starters.

Buying is easy, takes 10 minutes with AliPay here.

All things you can do far easier with fiat currency

how the hell do you tip someone with bitcoin? and how do you even buy anything in person with them? Do you have to wait 60 minutes next to the POS system?

Seems like an awful lot of things required to accomplish the same fucking results

Offline transactions are still improving, but on-line is where Bitcoin really works best. It's not really any harder than funding paypal or secondlife and all the other funding methods there are out there.

Let me answer this, though I understand that it's a futile attempt.

I do shop with btc, mine, buy and sell bitcoins.

I got my finances with my family/friends fully in bitcoin now. It made me hate all my other "payment" options especially online banking.

Having paypal hold my money for 6 months is also an other reason.

If you don't appreciate this:

"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution"

then why are you here? ;-)

Having said all this, I think it's an infant / evolving project so it's understandable if it's not for everyone at the moment.

so if the bitcoin economy crashes who are you going to plead for help to? The service providers? What form of law code will hold them accountable for failing to uphold their debts? Thanks for the chuckle. The fact you put all your assets into one form of currency is laughable by itself but to then follow it by referencing this quote as some form of validation:


makes me question why YOU are here.

News Flash: Bitcoin is already being run by financial institutions, they just have no accountability to their customers.

Banks may be somewhat irritable to deal with at times, but if a FDIC approved bank fails to uphold it's responsibilities to its customers there is legal action that can be taken.

the government is not something we as crypto fans should strive to one-up, it is just something we should find ways to avoid.

Allowing Bitcoin to enter everyday society and thusly Wall Street is hardly avoiding that, and it's not like there has been blatantly obvious corruption going on in Wall Street at any point in history ever throughout its existence...

I don't like feeding the trolls, but anyways I'm bored this morning :)

I do not put alll my wealth into 1 asset I'm not sure where you got that from.

Having false illusions of security towards traditional currencies (or other assets for that matter) are idiotic. I know it's different for each country but I have seen examples of what a corrupt government can do with centralized assets. Don't kid yourself that you're safe. ;-)

Having insurances on your bank account does not come for free. All the clients of the actual bank pay their part for the possibility of a bailout, if fraud happens.

As for the bitcoin world, everyone has different risk tolerance. I had only gains from bitcoin so far and I "lived" through the 2 huge panic sells (I didn't risk more than I can afford to lose though, so I wasn't all that fussed) ;)

Trading can and should be regulated, as for the bitcoin protocol itself, it cannot be controlled or taken over. It seems you forgot about the utility aspect for the pure reason that you, personally don't have one for it.

I would also add, that I'm totally aware that if there's a fundamental flaw in the protocol then the value of bitcoin would go to 0. What would I do If I default on my bitcoin holdings? It wouldn't affect me much, purely because of diversification.

uhh, the third line of your post?


Bitcoin is not decentralized, don't kid yourself


Regulated by who? And I do find uses for cryptocurrencies, I just accept and understand the fact that I will never be paying my rent with it

The thing is, I can find lots of things to do with bitcoins. But in virtually all cases, it is much faster, convenient and liquid to use dollars. None of the bitcoin revolutionists here have explained -- what can you do with bitcoin that you can't do more easily with fiat?

You can store value / invest. And you can buy drugs in mail.

What else?

That line is: "I got my finances with my family/friends fully in bitcoin now." That means that I do the petty transactions among my friends and family in bitcoin. that's all. It doesn't mean that I have everything in bitcoin.

I can't seem to understand your stance on decentralization. On what level do you think it's centralized?

@desired username

let's pretend I am completely new to bitcoins, never even heard of them before you told me about them. I ask you how I can acquire said coins

What would be your response?

I find shopping with BTC a lot more convenient. I don't need to give away the necessary details for charging my account. By the nature of my work, I travel awfully lot. I got sting by card fraud many times which is quite annoying.

I can do international transfers very quickly and without horrendous wait times and fees. I can buy desired things which are not sold in my country (electronics, domains and many more).

As I said it previously, the usefulness of BTC is highly dependent on personal circumstances and geolocation.

Saying that it won't be mainstream is ignorant in my opinion. maybe it will maybe it won't. time will tell.

It is a common myth that BTC is for black market purposes only.

This article shows that most Bitcoin users do not even take drugs (I am in this demoagraphic): http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-03-10/demographics-bitcoin

Many people, including me, are captivated more by the technological aspects of the currency, and how different it is to anything which has come before, more than the black market aspect (myself included).

It is as revolutionary as the invention of the Internet itself, and is the first P2P currency to EVER be created.

Only those with small minds only focus on the black market aspect.

A cursory google news search for BItcoin will reveal much activity from angel investors and legitimate companies doing things which have never been done before.

Stop spreading this trash talk.

And I'm glad it works for you, believe me I am not trying to disparage what Bitcoins did for this field as a whole. I just am pointing out the fact that


Should be a good indicator of how this speculation


is going to play out

I am fully supportive of any cryptocurrency that is willing to work with the supporters who make it possible. Bitcoin turned its back a long time ago


the average person using bitcoins to buy drugs isn't going to be filling out some shitty survey especially via a fucking google doc link. Only those with small minds IGNORE the black market aspect

Obviously, without going into details here, I would point them towards:

-Several exchanges
-Localbitcoins
-Bitcointalk
-Local bitcoin forums

I know it can be hard for some people to buy them, but it's basically because of the restricted financial system and early stage of adoption. Funnily it also highlights the state of our freedom quite apparently. ;-)

I always feel that people expect a complete / finished product when they first hear about bitcoin. It has a lot more headroom to grow in my opinion and not just in terms of acceptance. This past 1 year showed pretty decent progress. When I started mining there weren't even any shop accepting it. Now I always check if something can be bought for bitcoin first.

Again, I understand if it's not convenient for everyone at this very moment but it can easily change (or not). :)

Of course the black market aspect is there - but it is NOT the only reason BTC exists and to say BTC relies on black market transactions only for its current value is in fact a very outdated and incorrect point of view.

Silk Road's popularity was about the same when the value was $13 so are you saying all the rest of the increase of the market cap is from other black market activity only?

When SR was down for over 48 hours (and no one knew if it was coming back) it hardly affected the price of BTC at all.

I don't use the service at all but as I actually follow everything happening in the Bitcoin ecosystem I was aware of this.

Have you done a google news search for Bitcoin yet?

EDIT: Here I'll help you: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=uk&tbm=nws&authuser=0&q=bitcoin

I hope it helps you realize Bitcoin is far, far more than just a tool for the black market. It could be argued Silk Road was important in the evolution of Bitcoin - but now? Bitcoin as a whole has outgrown it and I would argue it is irrelevant as more and more investors and entrepreneurs are seeing the more revolutionary aspects which Bitcoin brings to the table.

:)

Here I go, fixin' shit again!

http://tnation.t-nation.com/forum_images/6/4/64fb3_ORIG-south_park_gay_orgy_pile.gif

I for one don't ignore it. I think it's way over rated.

I don't take drugs and never used silkroad, but I think that people generally will have a positive idea of it in the long run.

You cannot fight drug use by force. There should be a legitimate non-profit organization providing "clean" drugs, proper therapies, and activities for the drug addicts. Legalizing weed will be a step in the right direction.

That way you would kill the black market, the related corruption, and the exposure to unsafe substances immediately.

that's a lot of ground work to be doing to be simply buying groceries. If I were looking for a specific good I did not have access to in my area I could see why that would be worth the trouble, maybe something like hmmm drugs?


nobody expects that, which is why devs made new coins.


No I am saying Silk Road put Bitcoin into the public eye and brought in a large number of speculators who were banking on more people using said TOR services and willing to sell off massive amounts when the first sign of a downward trend made itself apparent. Yeah, those people are really down for your cause. The very group you think is going to help bitcoin is going to drive it into the ground.


Because people who use Silk Road aren't buying coins for their fiat value, they are buying them to immediately spend on drugs which are pegged to automatically adjust to the USD value of bitcoins. Nobody was panic selling their coin stash out of fear of losing the ability to acquire the same amount of drugs as before the site went down.


you follow everything that happens in an anonymous ecosystem, must be nice being able to tell bold faced lies on the internet.


No I have not, I base my opinions off my own logic and reasoning and that way if I am wrong it is my own damn fault.

Bitcoin hasn't outgrown shit, the size of your egos have you twat

keep welcoming increased regulation and mainstream support while turning your back on the very things that made it what it is today. See how it plays out, I'm sure those investors and entrepreneurs really give two fucks about the long-term future of Bitcoin

This is my last contribution to this thread.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929256.100-bitcoin-sells-out-as-big-business-moves-in.html

Have a great day dude.

P.S I base my opinions on my own research and analysis too.

When I found BTC it took me two weeks of serious study late last year to really wrap my head around it in a serious way.

I don't see what the problem is - if Bitcoin doesn't get legitimate it will be made illegal - period.

It is extremely easy to pass legislation which would cripple Bitcoin - I am not going to say how in this thread however!

as it should be, what are you even trying to prove besides everything I just fucking said?

All that article is is simply PR talk on their part, nobody can come out and support illegal activities in public, but they can put up a front of legitimacy with the knowledge that people are going to use their coins to still make illegal purchases regardless of whether they acknowledge it or not.

You think Storz & Bickel are anti-marijuana behind closed doors? Fuck no, they'd be out of business. But they know how to find grey areas and work around them.

The problem is that things stuck in a grey area can never become entirely supported by the mainstream population because the majority of people only see things in black or white.

Well just wait for the Bitcoin banks, Bitcoin ATM's, (more) Bitcoin investment funds.

I know a number of people working on some very, very serious projects.

Bitcoin has gained massive traction in the last few months and this will only continue.

You are freaking out over nothing.

are you a total moron or you are here just to piss people off? Go and try to move dollars between exchanges and do the same with bitcoin and then say bs like this. The fiat is limitation over internet not bitcoin. With bitcoin you feel finally free and don't even need any 3rd party institution to help you carry your money over internet for fee. And even if you want to do daily shopping with bitcoin you don't need to wait for 6 confirmations with small transactions but much lower depending on value of bought items. It could be even zero confirmation which is instant if seller decide so.

To compare this to current visa paypass you also have instant payments with zero confirmations but they are not safe because people can steal your money buying a lot of small things which happend already by buying tickets for example. Which means visa cards are not safe too and banks don't give a shit to this and still are promoting these cards even if people don't want to use them.

well you can't save everyone I guess

enjoy your bitcoin banks and investment funds

and your comically confident oxymorons  

A diverse ecosystem is a healthy one.

I don't see anything fundamental here, though. I mean, I get it, you like bitcoin. (So do I.) And great, there's a niche of tech geeks that like it too. Like this guy--
;D

I'm all for bitcoin as a payment system. I love anonymity and irreversible payments. But it's just so terribly illiquid. No one uses it. Whenever I've had to get cash to people, domestically or internationally, instant bank transfers and teller deposits (no/low fee) do the trick -- and that's how anyone I've ever known wants it (well, aside from those that require wires). I get the credit card fraud thing... and while that may hurt the image of credit cards for those affected by it, the BTC economy being the scam haven it is doesn't exactly help bitcoin's image either (in terms of adoption). I will say that when I have been a victim of CC fraud, the process was easy and my money was never in limbo. In the bitcoin economy, it is the Wild Wild West -- good luck getting recourse when your accounts are hacked, shady companies run off with your money, people defraud you, etc.

I don't live under a rock, but I've met one person, ever, who uses bitcoins and he is strictly a trader. I get that bitcoin can be used as a currency. By and large, it isn't, though. Perhaps someday. I don't think I said anything like bitcoin "won't be mainstream"... but it isn't. If you use bitcoin as a matter of convenience, I guarantee the vast majority of people (including myself) will use fiat as a matter of convenience. That, and as a matter of peace of mind, as I for one don't necessarily want to hold coins for long. Talking as if we are in some alternate reality where lots of people actually use bitcoin -- as many seem to do around here -- is just a pointless circle jerk.

I still see only two fundamental uses -- investment and black market trade. The rest is geek novelty and cult mentality, which, somehow, people around here pass off as utility.

I'm curious -- in regards to products you can buy with bitcoin (and not fiat? more conveniently than fiat?) what are you talking about, some more examples, web sites? From the perspective of someone who isn't actively involved with bitcoin and thus wouldn't be holding it, is this still true? I just don't see it.

  Wait till China makes a run on US Treasury bonds, then you will see the utility of bitcoin.

A few quick examples but really you guys should do more research!

- There are invisible barriers to entry for people from many countries (especially in Africa and the Middle East) where it is virtually impossible for people to open a Paypal account. Artists, authors, entrepreneurs and more can easily accept payment in Bitcoin for their services from anyone anywhere in the world.

- Paypal and Visa transaction fees make micropayments (payments under $1 US) virtually impossible. These are easy, fast and convenient with BTC so for example someone can accept micro payment donations on their blog.

- Bitcoin is the first P2P currency in the history of the world and the first decentralized currency to have a value which is not tied to any one nation state. In terms of the evolution of humanity I see this as an amazing thing. It is the first truly global currency which ANYONE can participate in and accept payment in quickly and easily.

.

LOL, I forgot about all those untapped internet markets in Africa and the Middle East. I'm sure all 12 people who would be interested would agree with you, but until you can sell blood diamonds or car bombs via BTC, I think you are over-estimating the importance of these markets. 


Talk about digging for reasons to defend yourself, that is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. Are we talking about giving homeless people spare change or making donations online? The words "fast, easy, and convenient" should also never be used in the same sentence as Btc, puhh-lease


Anyone can participate in other currencies as well, it's called getting a fucking job.

So delusional it's funny at times

If China dumps US Treasuries it would cripple the US economy.  Destroying the economy of your second largest trading partner (largest is the entire EU combined) is economic suicide.

Ok you have degenerated to swearing and in fact this whole conversation you have been rude many times unlike me.

I can't be bothered picking apart the twenty or so fallacies in your arguments (or your conflation of my points with counter arguments that do not even address what I actually said) - I have better things to do than write an essay right now.

You can't troll me goodbye and ignored.

that's the ticket, keep ignoring anyone who doesn't see your grand vision of a future dominated by Bitcoin

"oh you don't think I'm right? Ignored!"

that is a surefired way to appeal to the masses

all people asked for was some kind of legitimate reason to use bitcoins instead of fiat currencies for anything besides spending on TOR, and you give us that.

Sorry all I can see is "This user is currently ignored."

You need to chill out go get a massage or something - if you can afford it.

the speculation bubble is deflating.. just like last time. it will be in the 50s in a month or two. that is what happens when you have more sellers then buyers.
everyone is quickly realizing that there is little point in buying bitcoin right now unless you plan to speculate. and the speculators are drying up. so get the
hype machine rolling again guys. you need fresh meat.

Daaw someone needs a hug. And I'm sure you can inform us of all the "surefired" ways to appeal to the masses on bitcoin.

Actually the exchange rate has nothing to do with Bitcoin's intrinsic worth as a disruptive technology / art experiment

lol now I can see what you said ha ha.

Swearing, being rude, racist, slamming homeless people any sane person would ignore you.

Actually I can't because there isn't any

I accept this, the majority of you do not

at least I'm not sitting here in a fantasy world

True. But this is the speculation forum area talking about panicking and the price relative to USD.

And finicky internet users, in a very short amount of time, can switch to something else that is not bitcoin. Making it a footnote in internet history.

Can anyone really blame someone who panics that has 1000 BTC and what happens with the price over a few months time? One month it is worth 250,000 USD. Enough
to buy a nice house in many places. Two months later it can only buy the land the house sits on. Two months from now it might only buy a 30,000 dollar vehicle
which seems to be the most likely scenario that will play out this year. Whenever you have price swings like that rampant speculation is the cause. And often the case
ends up being most take a loss. We run out of greater fools to buy.

So the advice given earlier about only risking what you can afford to lose and not worry about is the only sane advice I can think of when talking about bitcoin. And
if you are only dabbling with those kind of values you will never win big. That is where greed comes in, the fools, and the few winners. Ah, good times.

Anyway... I have come to the conclusion that the only ones making real money around here are gambling, drug, pool, and exchange sites for the most part. They are
just sucking people dry in a steady fashion and laughing to the bank. The few speculators who actually sold near the top just sit back and chuckle at these threads.
They know the biggest fools just hold until the value of their asset goes to nothing. Always afraid to get out with a loss and ride it to the bottom.

The top used to be US$ 1, then US$ 30, then US$ 260 ...

There will also be a final top, even in the case Bitcoin survives the dollar.

This.
This.
Cool story, but not really relevant.

I gave legitimate reasons in my post that was responded to with swearing and racism.

You probably need to be educated to really understand what I was saying.

Some people just don't "get" Bitcoin and if they don't it's not my problem  :D

Just released today: http://kipochi.com/blog/kipochi-launches-first-bitcoin-wallet-in-africa-with-m-pesa-integration

...

lol I know you won't read this but it sort if IS your problem when you and the collective Bitheads of the world try and fail horribly to challenge fiat currencies at their own game

Btc had its niche, and now greed has driven it away from that. People who aren't in it for profits have moved on, as well as some people who ARE in it for profits.

Either way, the Titanic stayed afloat for a while before going under, but everyone in steerage probably thought they still had a chance to survive, while the important people at the top all got into lifeboats first.

I'm sure you think you would be a lifeboat-worthy person, but if only you knew how far from the truth that is

For real? You certainly didn't respond to much of my post. I will rebut you now, but considering your incessant whining about "swearing" and repetition of the same "revolution" talk, I'd drop the attitude. If you want to educate us, please go ahead. But don't repeat the same baseless shit over and over when someone rebuts you. Yeah, that's right. I said "shit." When someone asks about utility, no one cares about an "art experiment." If you want to spread gospel, take it outside the speculation forum, because we're not all pigs here.
That we disagree ≠ I haven't done research.
Again, that people can use bitcoin as currency doesn't mean that the unbanked and those who otherwise use mobile payments don't prefer services like payza, m-pesa, fortumo, text2pay, impulsepay, junglepay, onebip, boku, zong, venmo, dwolla, or dozens of other mobile services... or prepaid cards linked to digital wallets. There's only 11 million bitcoin addresses; zong has served triple that number of customers alone. Paypal has moved into mobile payments as well -- where is it "virtually impossible" to open an account (https://www.paypal.com/worldwide/)? All you need is a phone and an email address.

Re fees, some of these services allow for free/cheap micropayments, or at least schedules that rival or best bitcoin. With e-commerce, these providers often charge the customer no transaction fees and instead pass them on to the merchant. Payza users can receive up to $400 a month free (sending money is free), which is significant in re to remittances. Certainly beats 7% or 15% you might pay on a single bitcoin micropayment, since you bring it up. Admittedly, once you start taking in enough money, you'll get hit with 25 cent transaction fees, which means you probably wouldn't want to receive less than ~$1.50 - $2 at a time to stay in that range. If you use Paypal as a digital wallet (not as a merchant), then transferring money to friends and family is free. Outside the US, 0.5% to 2%, tops. So let's say I want to pay someone $.50. If BTC=$100, and tx fee = .0005, you pay 10% / $.05 with bitcoin. With Paypal, 2% or less / $.01 or less.

Yeah, Paypal wins.
This "bitcoin revolution" stuff doesn't add anything. Like other web/mobile payment systems, you can send/receive money virtually instantly to an electronic address. Yes, it's not tied to a government -- but we're talking about utility here, not political philosophy and idealism.

BITCOIN for 100% control of your fund, and nobody can take it from you, and even the government can't , in addition if during the war , you local currency will be useless and if you use bitcoin ,you can always save your money no matter what happen to your government....this just revolution ,the first time ever we could 100% secure or fund ,no matter what happen with our country.

There are 2^256 bitcoin addresses.
Just a example of how much 2^256 is:
If you would split each of the possible 21 million bitcoins in single satoshis and place them in their own bitcoin address, the probability of guessing such an address would still be 1.813595x10^-62

I thought it would have been clear that I meant the number of bitcoin addresses used (nevermind that 90% of them are empty), not the theoretical limit. I was under the impression that there were 2^160 possible (2^256 for public keys).

Though digging around I may have been looking at old stats... I believe the 11 million number was from April 2013.

First time I read your post I saw one of my ads offer some advice  :D

http://puu.sh/3uGcB.png

I was referring to hate the face's swearing.

You make some interesting points (unlike hate the face) but I just don't have time to research and respond to each one.

However, on the Paypal worldwide page it does state "Send and receive payments in these countries. Withdraw from your PayPal account to a U.S. bank account.

I doubt someone in Botswana has a US bank account.

We take so much for granted.

Anyone, anywhere in the world can get a BTC wallet in 2 seconds and begin sending and receiving BTC to anyone, anywhere else on the planet. If you can't see the beauty of this you're in the wrong forum.

In re to utility I actually find BTC far, far easier to use than traditional online banking services and apparently so do a lot of other people.

No, look closer. Like bitcoin, no bank accounts needed. If the liquidity is there, there is no need for banking. It's just cheaper.
https://i.imgur.com/441lws9.png
That's cool, I guess, but you saying so doesn't really make it so. I think I've made a case for why the former generally isn't true for most people. "A lot" doesn't really mean anything, does it? What is "a lot" relative to the rest of the mobile/cloud payment industry, or the banking industry?

That is to send to their paypal account not to be able to withdraw it to a bank accunt!

That is just saying someone in those countries can open a paypal account but they cannot withdraw the cash to a bank account in their country!

Anyone can open a BTC wallet in 2 seconds, it is a level playing field there is no red tape and no BS.

Dude. Are you serious? You are telling me that you can use bitcoins for P2P payments. I am telling you that you can do the same thing with Paypal, cheaper, in all of the places that you claimed that people couldn't. The only thing that matters is liquidity -- and there is no question that mobile/web payments providers will continue to ramp up services in developing countries.

You can't withdraw BTC to a bank account in your country, can you? Much of this discussion is about people without bank accounts. I really don't see where you are going with this. The point is that people can exchange value cheaply without banks.

There are many, many ways to convert Bitcoins to local fiat everywhere in the world (which is a factor in liquidity).

To be able to purchase locally with funds locked in a paypal account doesn't seem the same, does it?

Why are you guys getting so angry go back to inflationary fiat only designed to keep you on the mouse wheel the rest of your life if you love it so much!

This you call "political philosophy and idealism" is in reality a very big practical problem solver for a big part of the world. I will give you two examples based on my very own personal experience:

1) Have you ever tried to do business with Argentina? I've been doing for many years, with big and reputable companies (but currently in a "fight" with C. Kirchner), until they couldn't pay us any more in USD because of internal monetary policy. The situation got so absurd that I was offered to flight to Buenos Aires to pick up a suitcase full of useless pesos. Obviously I declined as that is a dangerous game, I took quite a big loss and I moved on, not doing any more business with that country. That problem persists and is very common in my industry, Argentina is "cut out". BTC has the potential to solve that problem.

2) One of my best friend moved to a South American country, and there are very big barriers to get a residence permit (the process is lengthy and the bureocracy messy), and without resident permit you can't have bank accounts that allow international wires, both incoming and outgoing. BTC is actually solving that problem, besides of the exchange rate risk (which is indeed big at this moment).

Plus, I think that I don't have to remind you what happened in Cyprus, and the amount of money taxpayers from most of Europe and the US had to pay from their own pockets to bail out "too big to fail" banks. I guess you also know that Southern Europe countries are in the middle now of a deep financial crisis triggered again but a disastrous monetary policy.

So, I understand how for a lot of US and generally speaking "first world" folks the "decentralized, trust-free" characteristic of BTC is only "ideological", but the reality is it is not: millions of people are becoming poorer because of the IMF, FED or ECB monetary policies.

TL;DR -> do not underestimate the practical need for monetary freedom.

Bitcoin is actually extremely illiquid in much of the world. Are you actually suggesting that bitcoins are more liquid than Paypal $? What evidence do you have for this?

"Locked" in a Paypal account? According to Paypal, there are 110 million active accounts. There are what, 1.5-2 million funded bitcoin addresses? Are you aware of what Paypal is, and that large, reputable businesses accept it (unlike bitcoin)? It's accepted point-of-sale in 2 million retail stores.

Why do you seem to think exchanging bitcoins locally would be more useful or prevalent than exchanging Paypal currency locally? In the context of developing markets, why would you assume that bitcoin is more liquid?

    Bitcoin is more liquid than paypal in Afghanistan, Montenegro, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma, Cuba, Iran, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Belarus, and Somalia. This is approximately 600 million people. Even if they only made an average of 1 dollar a day and saved at a rate of 5%, and then put an average of 20% of their savings in bitcoin to be able to make international transactions, this would mean a tripling of bitcoin's market cap. There are at least a few people among those 600 million who would like to make purchases online and are hindered from doing so by restrictions that ultimately only benefit the rich. Both capitalists and socialists can get behind bitcoin in good conscience- free markets create more wealth, free flow of money loosens super elites monopoly death grip on the global order. The more they tighten their fists the more bitcoins will slip through their fingers!

You definitely bring up some interesting points. My feeling is that bitcoin is too illiquid and volatile at this point to serve these purposes on scales worth mentioning, though I agree, the potential is there. Indeed, people are becoming perpetually poorer because of destructive monetary policy, but that doesn't address what I was saying. My frustration is with the tendency to speak of bitcoin's potential as already having been fulfilled -- and that by its potential alone, it is useful. This forum is awash with that sentiment. It's funny, but frustrating, when people ignore everything you say and reply, "but, bitcoin revolution!" or something similar. The early discussion re utility is a good example of how irrelevant that can be (and how cult-like it comes off).

Would you agree that we're closer than we were two years ago? A year ago? 6 months ago? 3 months? 1?

Completely agree on the "potential" part. Bitcoin is revolutionary indeed, but its potential its still unrealized.

Going back at the two personal examples I gave you in my last posts: the company with which I did business in Argentina in the past, would never pay me in BTC at this stage. The process to buy significant amounts of BTC its still too lengthy, complicated and shady, especially for a big company - the volatility risk is also too big ATM. As absurd as it sounds, right now the only solution would be the one I was proposed, which was to fly to Argentina to pick up a suitcase full of pesos (an alternative would be dollars bought in the black market, but that is too risky and thus out of the question for a legit company trying to transfer a big amount of $).

On the contrary my friend in South America is using BTC to move some money back and forth, but still he couldn't make his relatives to understand how to safely "cash out" without my help.

Making a long story short, the potential is all there but the current infrastructure its not good enough to realize that potential. Bitcoin *can* be a revolution indeed, but it still has a long way to go.

What I do not agree with is with the statement that BTC being decentralized and trust-free is only "ideological" stuff with no utility. No sir, not at all. Those characteristics has the potential to solve very real, daily problems for millions of people on the planet.

[high potential] + [infrastructure gaps] = [huge opportunity]

yeah i wouldn't invest in Google at IPO because all they did was help me search the internet

Agreed ~

Yeah, well, this is pretty much the list of countries that Paypal does not serve. Certainly you would expect a US payment processor not to serve countries on the embargo list? However, I am curious as to evidence that bitcoin is more liquid in Belarus and Somalia. Or that bitcoin adoption has taken off in North Korea and Burma.  ::) I mean, Iranians have paypaad / mpaad, Bangladeshis have payza, etc... so comparing bitcoin to Paypal in that context isn't relevant. Naturally, it's not about being more liquid than Paypal. Paypal is just one of many, many examples, as stated earlier.

Why the hell would they do that?
REVOLUTION!!!  ;D

The company in Argentina can received in btc and use future market to secure its value(plus 500 or 796 ).. thus Volatility can become not a problem for them.
And it is also a problem that MT.GOX even thought as a largest liquidity method but it also sometime can't meet the needs, there are other way can solve this problem out by invent a trader that use fixed exchange rate to dealing with large transaction.(often 2-3% below the market average) Then this company can sold its BTC separately by small quantity over different exchanges.(Not only can make profit on the transaction ,it also release liquidity and price pressure on those exchanges)
So, the potential of BTC is numerous, all problem of its either liquidity or volatility can be perfectly be solved...

Those countries are extremely unsafe to store gold or other valuable stuffs, if they realize that they can store their money in a save way like BTC ,what makes you think they would not to do so ??? assume their local currency are almost incapable to store value ,because the uncertainty of their government .

Potential... that was my point -- that in a discussion about the present-day utility of bitcoin, unrealized potential does not apply.
Yes.

I think we're starting to make some pretty sweeping generalizations here. What makes you think that they would do so? We are talking about the same bitcoin that recently lost almost half its value over a 2-week period, right?

      Because maybe its the only way for them to buy an ipad.

Isn't that just about the entire point of speculating in something? You hope that the future value will be higher. If the potential was fully realised now, that would not happen.

That's when it's time to sell.

Any discussion about speculating in price movements has everything to do with unrealised potential as compared to present day utility.

So you admit that BTC has unrealised potential then?

Ding ding ding... time to buy.

       It is definitely harder to confiscate a brain wallet than gold, and it is much more liquid. All that needs to happen is for the risk of confiscation to outweigh the risk of bitcoin price fluctuations. Someone just has to believe that the risk is real. Gold and currency also have virtually no chance of seeing increases of value in the thousands of percent. Simple risk analysis. Besides that, people are not rational anyway.

   Speculation is counter productive and wrong. If everyone just tried their best to use bitcoin and tell others about the benefits, we would all make way more money than by speculating.

but how would we ever have attracted the userbase and development we did without the profit incentive that high prices wrought by speculators brought? :) just let the market do its thing

Yes, this pretty in the same way ,it might lose its value 50% in two weeks and also had chance to get increase its value by 50% in two weeks.
For some extremely countries like mentioned above ,those people if they know there are alternative way as BTC,they will ignored the price fluctuation ,because they have no other better choice ,Gold is too high weight and can't be cut into small amount, currency either not secure ,it may losing value more quick than BTC.

    The market doing its thing is what causes the cycle of financial crises and wars. If everyone would just buy, hold and use bitcoin for everything they can, the price would already be much higher and even more people would be getting into it now. People think they are making money selling "high" and buying low, but its peanuts compared to what an army of dedicated believers could accomplish.

still panicing?  ;-)

Now its panic buy instead of panic selling. haha

I think we are speculating on different time frames.  :D
But why bitcoin -- from a layman's perspective? That you and I see the benefits does not guarantee anything. There are obviously many options to hide / store money besides bitcoin. You make it sound like the Cypriots themselves probably bought up the bubble to 266.
This. You can't stop speculation, you just need to roll with the market.

Personally, as far as encouraging people to get involved... While I enjoy discussing bitcoin with people that don't know about it, I must emphasize the risk involved, not only re volatility and the recent bubble, but also the tense regulatory atmosphere and potential for government interference, as well as what the quasi-regulated and unregulated economy means to them -- the lack of recourse they may have when when accounts are hacked, shady companies run off with their money, people defraud them, etc.
No, it is not a 50-50 shot. It's not just "buy, buy, buy." And where do you get the idea that people will perceive bitcoin to be the best possible choice? Why is BTC not skyrocketing in prevalence in Argentina? Because people want dollars.
That is a very unrealistic hope, though. Until this market matures, the "army of dedicated believers" bit is irrational and will be perceived by many as such. People want to maintain or grow their portfolio -- you can't simply expect people to hold when they perceive the value to be in decline, particularly when much of the economy is comprised of speculators.
I think we may have seen the top here... maybe a couple more pushes into triple digits, but I don't think it will last. Starting to see sell pressure and not from whale dumps. I didn't think we could break out for long above 100, but we'll see. I think if the whale continues to push the market up, he is definitely playing with fire at this point.

MAbtc don't worry man you aren't alone in your thinking.

Talking about Bitcoins in afghanistan? Do they even have a higher ratio of TVs to donkeys yet? Why would they need to travel 50 miles to the nearest AC outlet to use bitcoin when the only thing worth accruing them for is located right in their backyard?

You people are delusional, you cannot create an anonymous and supposedly decentralized currency and expect the masses to put their trust in it because some Bitheads hyped it up by talking shit on the governments of the world and their economies while simultaneously being slowly but surely herded into their tax codes anyway.

Bitcoin is too big for its own good, either move on or deal with the consequences

http://youtu.be/X2XnF9cZypA?t=20s  ** play this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkoEWm4Bovs) in the back for more of an effect  ;)

yup! Love it, or get the fuck out.

im a bear and what is this

Bitcoin is very similar to silver. Both are volatile and heavily manipulated. I LOVE volatility. At least when you check it, it has changed for a bit of excitement. Nothing is worse than an investment that moves at 0.2% over a week. Boring....  If you don't like volatility, you should not be in any stock because they all can suddenly become volatile and lose ALL your money within a few months. Hard assets like land and metals are the only speculation that really cannot lose all value. The rich like art because the gov cannot take it unless they try to claim it was stolen.

At the end of the day... Bitcoin is cool. It's new and fresh and entirely unprecedented in so many ways.

If you can't appreciate that, if you've seriously studied and wrapped your head around how it works and you didn't have many sleepless nights than just leave - we won't miss you  :D

many many many many hours glued to my laptop screen since 2011 because of Bitcoin, and I've learned so much from it. no regrets  :D

Since I put all my saving into BTC, following with it is loss my ability to sleep in the night time, the price goes up I can't sleep ,the price goes down I can't sleep.
However, I am pretty sure that BTC is the future of our money ,at least it give a new way which we can 100% control over our wealth.I am going to ignored the short-run of the price fluctuation.  I am happy that take part of in this revolutionary technology ,even one day my coins only worth to buy a pizza again,I will not regret about it ..I will consider it as I am lose game in Casino...

  If you had been to Afghanistan you would know that in every village there is someone who has a generator that fires up his generator to charge cell phones for a small fee. There are already services in Pakistan where you can send money by sms using an old Nokia phone with a black and white screen. There is money to be made designing bitcoin programs to work with such phones, in which case it is absolutely plausible that we could see rural villagers using phones for banking- even families that have a donkey and no TV have cell phones.

  Don't take my word for it, go there and see for yourself. I was scared at first going there but I was treated with more kindness and respect than I had ever experienced in the US. Don't believe everything you see on TV.

    I agree with you, growing too much too fast is dangerous for any business or protocol in the case of bitcoin. I don't know what you mean by move on- maybe you are comparing the transition from fiat to bitcoin to moving to a heliocentric model of the solar system? Are you suggesting with move on from heliocentrism to awareness of our orbiting around the galactic core?