Bitcoin Forum

I started a thread on a relatively small gamers development forum asking them to consider accepting bitcoin purchases for their newest game  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvsaaz1ZILA)I am really excited about.

It really opened my eyes how people will fight tooth and nail to just discredit Bitcoin, and most of these thoughts seem to be because of articles they had read by authors who do not understand bitcoin at all.

If you would like to see how the 100+ responses in under an hour unfolds check here (http://forums.firefallthegame.com/community/threads/will-you-guys-consider-accepting-bitcoin.896741/)

I am not asking anyone to register and chime in about why you would purchase a game with bitcoin, but if you would like to go for it!

Favorite line of them all:

of course they are ignorant/don't understand/are frightened of it.. it's new, it's 'techy' and it's radically different from anything we've ever had before.. what did you expect?
I remember when I tried to explain to someone about P2P music sharing back in 1998 or so.. he said something like:
...every cassette tape you put into your tape-deck actually exists. You could trade that cassette with someone and for an 8-track, that you could then take to the music-store and exchange for a vinyl album if you wish.  That p2p/digital music doesnt exist anywhere and could vanish instantly. It will never catch on...

Pretty funny that they think dollars are still backed by gold.  Or maybe it was a 105 year-old gamer that just forgot about FDR.

wots new

Should have said drugs, would be more dramatic...

tr'rsts

I know right, I never heard anyone identify bitcoin as a porn ecosystem.  Drugs yea, porn?

there is a GirlsGoneBitcoin subreddit accessible on the right on the /r/Bitcoin subreddit

Honestly, who pays for porn these days...

On topic:  you are doing a fine job defending the use of bitcoin.
By the way, that Anubis guy really isn't stupid, quite to the contrary I would guess, he just hasn't read a lot about how money works yet, you might want to give him a break...

Oh you'd be surprised. The majority of people I know who I've talked to about this still think that the US is on the gold standard.

Well, some of them seemed to learn a great deal about Bitcoins (BitCoins lol) in that thread :D

Honestly, who pays for porn these days... [2]

I was young and naive at one point too  :D thought everything I knew was right

oh well, everyone has to have this argument at one point with bitcoin lest they were to adopt it blindly

These kind of drastic changes (like the changing of a fiat economy to a bitcoin economy) take a substantial amount of time to manifest themselves in a society (please correct my English). Here's an interesting excerpt from the Wikipedia entry about Paradigm Shifts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift):

Way to spread the word chsados.  I skimmed the thread.  Yep, it was painful.  The problem hardly seemed to be about bitcoin, but rather that those gamer people had not a clue what money is.  General financial ignorance, topped off with a healthy does of close-mindedness, and maybe even a small dash of stupidity.  I wouldn't be surprised if the average IQ of the bitcoin community is over 110.

I pulled this post off the tread so.  Yep... painful.

****************
So.. Bitcoin isn't real. It's generated via interwebz. Money you didn't work for.
{irrelevant ramblings removed}
Course, i just read about wtf Bitcoins are soooo... And from what i read, i sure as heck ain't using it. Rather buy things with money I've earned working.
****************

lol

If it was used to buy porn then now 1 bitcoin would be worth 10.000$ or more

After reading that forum thread I kind of want to go to the local high school and slap some teachers. How the hell are so many so ignorant of the basics about the world. Of course I know the answer before asking.. schools do not educate anymore, they are just baby sitting future welfare dependents that are expecting someone else to do all the thinking and work.

I average about 5 conversation's a day to people explaining BTC/LTC/ALTs etc. just as chsados did. 4/5 tend to nod and say they understand to a point but 1 usually gets scared or angry at me as if I'm trying to destroy mankind. Amazing ignorance in the world today. I'm not surprised considering how many people do not pay attention to history.

Okay, I'm off to the bank to trade my paper into gold! ( :) )

Be well.
T.

physical? what bank in the US trades out gold?

He is poking fun at one of the commentors in the thread that claims that dollars are backed buy the gold standard and one can trade them in for gold.  This was in response to me saying that bitcoin is just as "imaginary" as his dollars in his bank account and paypal.

On the thread you state;

But what risk are they taking on? Are you saying that OKCupid has damaged/risked its website? What about Reddit - they accept bitcoin too. What about municiple websites - did you know you can pay your electric, water, court fees, parking tickets through bitcoin now anywhere in the US?

Where can you pay your utilities in BTC?

The general population is ignorant about most everything so this is no surprise.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=160036.0
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1b63xq/pay_the_government_with_bitcoin_leading_municipal/

Proper word should have been municipal services...fixed

I wanna watch that guy OP quoted go try to get an ounce of gold for $35 from the treasury.

the rampant ignorance of the youth... expletive EXPLETIVE how dare the world make me feel so elderly at the relatively young age of 33!   >:(

makes me get all bearish.  MUST... ACQUIRE... MOST... BITCOIN...

Those Georgia Guidestones might be right after all.

Their ignorance allows us to get in cheap.  They will eventually get in which will raise the price and then you win!

Only talk to those who listen, because at some point they will have no one to rant with anymore and join up. This is how things run.

Befo this. I have heard different things, generalized in tokens. But the method used, not clear, boundless which service providers have been using before I know bitcoin.

Bitcoin may look like the tokens. Just make larger, more fair and everyone can monitormifmthere is out of control to ensure safe.

If i had said the words fiat currency and explain it  to 99.999% of people in this forum back in 2004 and tried to explain it their eye's would have just glazed over and thought wtf is this guy on about?????

So it's not surprising....


I mean only a small % of this forum really understands what fractional reserve banking is

even less the term current reserve ratio

even less, the basel accords

and even less

approved deposit taking institution, or the equivalent in your jurisdiction


so in some ways the majority of the CC/ BTC community is not that much better

I think so too, btc is a paradigm-shift regarding currency. Max Planck said, not literally quotet: science goes not forward until the old garde of scientist dies.

So, let's hope for the time when the next generation - or my generation :) - get the power.

And: great attempt by the way. I am reading through the forum, very silly. But at least you made some people think about it, thank you.

I like this answer:

"No but you see, as soons as :red5: starts accepting BTC as an option to pay for Red Beans, :red5: will immediately go from a game developer to an international drug smuggling organisation."

 :o

Let's just say you went in way too aggressive and cocky on your approach to persuade them.
From what i can read, most of your posts besides the first one start with something like "did you even read my first post?" and have a general "you just don't understand it" vibe to them.

Thats the WRONG way to persuade people about bitcoins. Yes, they are ignorant. Yes, they don't understand the system. No need to be a dick about it.
If you are going to promote a system that 90% of the population hasn't even heard of, another 9% is skeptic about and about 1% likes, keep your patience and don't try to come over like "i'm right, bitcoin is the best thing ever and there are NO drawbacks when you use coinbase." They don't care how interesting bitcoin is. After a couple of posts, they are essentially fighting you, not the bitcoin idea, for keeping your foot in the door so aggressively. Thats not the way to get into peoples minds.
Be considerate, be friendly, respect their opinions and try to discuss with them in a non aggressive manner. 

The guy in red (which i assume is an admin of some sort) said it was an interesting idea, so you should be happy. All you did after that was discuss bitcoin with a bunch of people that don't have the intention, and propably never will, no matter what you say, to use bitcoin. If the company is gonna accept bitcoin, it will be for a small part of the market that mostly already owns bitcoin, not for the dudes you are going crazy with right now on that forum. :D

Good effort mate, but next time, use an archaeology brush and chisel instead of a sledgehammer.  ;)

To be honnest, your best plan of attack now is to ignore the lovely bunch of ignorant fools in that thread all together and instead focus on the positive response you got from that admin.
Contact him by PM, tell him you liked his positive response and that you would love to help them out with ANY question the developers team have about the subject.
Tell them you would love to make a presentation for the developerteam with detailed explanation of both bitcoin and how it can be used by this company to improve their market share and profits. The opinion of the guys on that forum is quite irrelevant at the moment to be honest, as long as red5 sees the benefits of it you are good to go.

Make sure to be honnest in your presentation if they feel like hearing your plea for bitcoin. Don't try to sell bitcoin as a system to them with some of the clever romatizations we sometimes see on the internet. You are not trying to convince them that bitcoin is perfect and they should use it in their daily lives, you are trying to convince them of the advantages of attracting bitcoin users to buy their game using the currency. Talk about pro's and con's, the market they will be accessing, the hype it could add, and the mouth to mouth promotion it could inspire.
Warn for volatility issues that might hurt the customers, and mention how future growth of the bitcoin system might influence their bussiness! Make sure to let them feel you are there to assist them at any stage in the process if they need you.

Good luck mate!
If you pull this off, put a big post in here, i'll buy the game even though i don't know it, just to make a point. ;)     

But the sledgehammer's so much more satisfying :)
By the time a preacher climbs on the soapbox, subtlety has already failed him (unless preaching from the soapbox is subtle).
People are used to paper money, generations and generations worth of habit.  Why would an average guy chose Bitcoin over $$$ if he can't be persuaded to choose Android over iOS, linux over Windows, or Whopper over Big Mac? 
With paper money, not only is the brand loyalty stronger, but the entire infrastructure is designed around fiat -- from banks to ATMs to cash registers to ... *everything.* 

Just plant the seed of an idea in someones mind, it will grow with time anyway if the 'ground is fertile'. if ya know what i mean. :)

Ah, Inception, such a good movie. ^^

Don't worry OP, you did an excellent job in your first and second post. Anyone who continues to claim there is risk involved in accepting bitcoins through a payment processor like coinbase is a total retard who either can't read or can't comprehend.

Good job!

I later learned this was actually the CEO!  I will definitely PM him with a thought out message.

It is kinda hard to believe people would still think dollars are backed by gold but then again fiat currencies are a relatively new "invention".  The Federal Reserve Act lead to the creation of fiat currency in 1913 but National Money still existed along side it in various forums until 1968.

Maybe he saw a really old dollar like this one and assumed the promise was still valid.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb186/Pdecarolis01/1928TwentyDollarBill.jpg

Or maybe one of the various silver notes issued over the years. However even if you find these notes today the promise of redemption has been rescinded (US notes in 1953 and silver notes in 1968).  

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/US-%2410-SC-1934-A-Fr.2309.jpg/667px-US-%2410-SC-1934-A-Fr.2309.jpg

These notes were the last national currency of the United States, issued by an independent treasury, outside the control of any bank, and backed by precious metal.  I will say that again since it seems to be something that a lot of people simply don't get.   The United States has not had a national currency since 1968 (and the begining of the end was in 1913).  While FRNs may say "US Dollars" the Federal Reserve is a private cartel of corporations, and the private script they issue is as "federal" as Federal Express.  If you deposit any of this "legacy" national currency at your local bank it will be replaced with FRNs and the notes sent to Treasury for destruction*.  Why?  Well banks don't like competition and they fought very hard for nearly two centuries (with lots of setbacks) to eliminate national currency in this country.  Federal reserve notes are a currency in use in the United States, they are even accepted as legal tender in the United States but they are not money of the United States.

If you didn't know this already likely right not your first thought it "no that can't be right".  I would say the majority of Americans don't even realize there is a fundamental difference between the two notes.   The United States Notes (and other forms of national currency issued by the treasury like silver certs) were a bill of credit.  Each note being backed by reserves of precious metals (either silver or gold) in US Treasury vaults.  In essence if you had a US note (prior to close of redemption) the US government OWED YOU the holder some value.  This made it was exactly like buying and selling in physical bullion except more convenient.  Federal reserve notes on the other hand are issued by debt.  They are issued by the Federal Reserve and the interest becomes a perpetual obligation of the United States.  Holding a federal reserve note doesn't mean the federal reserve owes you anything.  On the contrary the very fact that you have a federal reserve note in your hand is proof the government is in debt to its bankers.  If the US government had no debt there would be no federal reserve notes.

As disgusting as the bait and switch is, I have to give credit where credit is due, the transition (which took decades) was an awesomely well played.  It finally (by 1968) gave a private cartel of bankers something they schemed to acquire for nearly two centuries ... complete and absolute control over the money on the United States.  



* A little bit of sad trivia.  Since US notes were originally issued by the US government they were a liability of the treasury however the Treasury wasn't in debt because for each issued note it held an equal amount of precious metals (assets) thus the net liability on the Treasury was zero ($1 printed = $1 of gold/silver in reserve).  However when the reserve was removed and sold off, the notes remained (thus $1 note = $1 liability with no matching reserve to offset it).   This means the United States treasury acquired a debt equal to the amount of outstanding notes.  By outstanding notes we only mean actual "legacy" national currency.  FRNs aren't issued by the Treasury (they are bought by the treasury for debt).  While US notes can no longer be redeemed for gold they can be redeemed for FRNs.  Banks will do this as part of the normal business.  They seperate the US notes from THEIR federal reserve notes and then ship them up to the federal reserve banks.  The federal reserve then sells these notes to the Treasury for more debt in FRNs.  Slowly overtime as the bills come out of circulation the debt by the Treasury to the holders of the currency is reduced but it is replaced by an equivalent amount of debt owed to the federal reserve.

If you're interested, for more info on what D&T is talking about, this is a good start
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfEBupAeo4
"All wars are bankers' wars"

The stupid is strong with this one  :D

I just love it how it is always mentioned that Bitcoin is linked to illegal money laundering and/or underground, how come this never comes up with the USD?

Because along with stuff like dope & guns, dollars are also known for paying for hospitals & food, something which Bitcoin is not.  Get it now?

Well from what I understand there are quite a few restaurants that accept BTC, it would probably be used in paying for hospitals unless it was illegal.

I'm not talking about what could or should happen -- i'm explaining why things are the way they are.  You asked why Bitcoin is linked to dope & guns, and i explained why.
I can also add that the dollar is not exempt from association with criminality.  As a matter of fact, i can't think of a single movie where Bitcoin, and not dollar, was used to buy guns or drugs.

Great post that should be reiterated to everyone more often.
Just as a little add-on about this fiat money thing.
 
The USA went bankrupt in 1932.
(You can 00gle it and find plenty of info. This guy posted just what I believe to be accurate of what it is really "about" Please read his post. I am just showing 1 paragraph of his)

From https://docs.google.com/document/d/165i0dicryJ_KtzCr6agR6O6v4XaRM2EDr6f1WbmU3Fg/edit?hl=en
 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/165i0dicryJ_KtzCr6agR6O6v4XaRM2EDr6f1WbmU3Fg/edit?hl=en)
The fact of the matter is, the United States did go "Bankrupt" in 1933 and was declared so by President Roosevelt by Executive Orders 6073, 6102, 6111 and by Executive Order 6260 on March 9, 1933, under the "Trading With The Enemy Act" of October 6, 1917, AS AMENDED by the Emergency Banking Relief Act, 48 Stat 1, Public Law No. 1, which is presently codified at 12 USCA 95a and confirmed at 95b. You can confirm this for yourself by reading it on FindLaw. Thereafter, Congress confirmed the bankruptcy on June 5, 1933, and thereupon impaired the obligations and considerations of contracts through the "Joint Resolution To Suspend The Gold Standard And Abrogate The Gold clause, June 5, 1933" (See: HJR-192, 73rd Congress, 1st Session). When the Courts were called upon to rule on various of the provisions designed to implement and compliment FDR's Emergency BANKING Relief Act of March 9, 1933, they were all found unconstitutional, so what FDR did was simply stack the "Court's" with HIS chosen obsequious members of the bench/bar and then sent many of the cases back through and REVERSED the rulings.

and
FDR took us off the gold standard in 1933
From http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-takes-united-states-off-gold-standard (http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-takes-united-states-off-gold-standard)
On June 5, 1933, the United States went off the gold standard, a monetary system in which currency is backed by gold, when Congress enacted a joint resolution nullifying the right of creditors to demand payment in gold. The United States had been on a gold standard since 1879, except for an embargo on gold exports during World War I, but bank failures during the Great Depression of the 1930s frightened the public into hoarding gold, making the policy untenable.

Soon after taking office in March 1933, Roosevelt declared a nationwide bank moratorium in order to prevent a run on the banks by consumers lacking confidence in the economy. He also forbade banks to pay out gold or to export it. According to Keynesian economic theory, one of the best ways to fight off an economic downturn is to inflate the money supply. And increasing the amount of gold held by the Federal Reserve would in turn increase its power to inflate the money supply. Facing similar pressures, Britain had dropped the gold standard in 1931, and Roosevelt had taken note.

On April 5, 1933, Roosevelt ordered all gold coins and gold certificates in denominations of more than $100 turned in for other money. It required all persons to deliver all gold coin, gold bullion and gold certificates owned by them to the Federal Reserve by May 1 for the set price of $20.67 per ounce. By May 10, the government had taken in $300 million of gold coin and $470 million of gold certificates. Two months later, a joint resolution of Congress abrogated the gold clauses in many public and private obligations that required the debtor to repay the creditor in gold dollars of the same weight and fineness as those borrowed. In 1934, the government price of gold was increased to $35 per ounce, effectively increasing the gold on the Federal Reserve's balance sheets by 69 percent. This increase in assets allowed the Federal Reserve to further inflate the money supply.

The government held the $35 per ounce price until August 15, 1971, when President Richard Nixon announced that the United States would no longer convert dollars to gold at a fixed value, thus completely abandoning the gold standard. In 1974, President Gerald Ford signed legislation that permitted Americans again to own gold bullion.

and
JFK and Real Money? (Again, research yourself and be wiser for it and maybe a little nervous. Some paranoia is safety)
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11110 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11110)
..Executive Order 11110 was issued by U.S. President John F. Kennedy on June 4, 1963.

This executive order delegated to the Secretary of the Treasury the President's authority to issue silver certificates under the Thomas Amendment of the Agricultural Adjustment Act, as amended by the Gold Reserve Act. The order allowed the Secretary to issue silver certificates, if any were needed, during the transition period under President Kennedy's plan to eliminate silver certificates...

What he did was...
On November 28, 1961, President Kennedy halted sales of silver by the Treasury Department. Increasing demand of silver as an industrial metal had led to an increase in the market price of silver above the United States government's fixed price. This led to a decline in the government's excess silver reserves by over 80% during 1961. President Kennedy also called upon Congress to phase out silver certificates in favor of Federal Reserve notes.

And so.. this is why we no longer have real money. We have fiat aka promissory notes backed by nothing other than peoples willingness to use them as a means of transfer. The U.S.A. corporation has yet to leave bankruptcy and will always owe more than can ever be "paid" back to cover loans. Anyone that starts to understand and still trusts 100% in the dollar is in for a rude awakening when a wheel-barrow is what's needed for a loaf of bread.


Be well.
T.

This thread is one of the core reasons why I created the Bitcoin Education Project. The primary issue we have with mainstream adoption is the FUD and misconceptions that exist due to the media and decentralized community. I've always believed in a simple axiom that if the people understand bitcoin then they will demand bitcoin. But education requires more than a discussion of cryptocurrencies, it requires a deeper discussion of money in general and what makes money valuable.

What we've found over the past two months is that the American public is vastly underinformed about how its money works. A large percentage of the American people still believe there is a connection to gold embedded into their money. Some believe the value of a currency is mandated by the government that issues it. Very few understand how central banks create and destroy money nor the impact inflation has upon their buying power. Even organizations such as wikimedia seem to have fallen into a trap of labeling some currencies as "artificial" with the implication there exists a natural currency.

In reality, money is simply a social contract that serves three purposes: a means of exchange, a store of value and a unit of account. The meta properties of fungibility, durability and divisibility alongside distribution also tend to play into the function and consequent value; however, anything that can satisfy these characteristics is money. A government's fiat is simply to resolve the issue of solidifying the social contract with a promise to properly manage the money supply in the best interest of its users, yet crypto-currencies have removed the need for trust, or better said blind faith, in any institution or actor.

I can understand how frustrating it is dealing with the FUD and willful ignorance of many when trying to explain the enormous benefits of CCs- never before has the human race had the ability to instantaneously move value without respect to time and space. But don't lose the faith in what this movement is trying to and has already accomplished. In just four years, we built both the technology and also a billion dollar economy from literally a laptop of a single hacker without any regulation, government investment or cabal of elite insiders. Imagine how far we can go in four more years? Eventually we can get the mainstream onboard, it's just going to require a lot of time, patience and true grit to see it through. The payoff is that money will transcend governments and be globally democratized without the manipulation of an oligarch.    

If the "Founder" of that forum actually knew how much USD % was used for "illicit" activities, maybe he wouldn't want to be tied to that currency, either? But, ignorance is bliss. You have to realize that most of the people running about have NO idea how the monetary system works, that's the way they like it and how they perpetuate further control. Education is the only way and that assumes they're open to it.

I also like how none of the people on that forum realize the world isn't America.
If you want people to pay into your game site and they live in parts of Eastern Europe, Africa, Middle East, India, Pakistan and China they won't be able to use Paypal, or it will be so expensive they won't want to use it (China).

Another idiot suggested Bitcoin would enable spammers and 'hackers' uhh no, they would use botnet harvested paypal accounts for free instead of having to pay with Bitcoins.

I'm sure Paypal is also charging the game company standard huge merchant fees instead of the 0.99% fee Bitpay would charge. The more people who pay using Bitpay, the more money they make. I'd enable every payment method and then heavily promote Bitpay option since it has fastest turnaround of any payment gateway on earth and is the cheapest. You'll obviously sell more accounts with credit cards, but you'll also be paying 8%-20% fee depending on your risk (selling game gold? high risk) and only get paid out once per month, maybe sooner but for higher rolling reserve and higher fees.

Eventually we may or may not get the mainstream support, but if we do, it certainly won't be by telling them that Bitcoin came from "a laptop of a single hacker" or educating the American public, or pretending that organizations which don't wish to deal in Bitcoin are simply ignorant.  Wikimedia is many things, but ignorance is not the first one that comes to mind.  

Their definition of real currencies is sound:
"[ Real currencies] are backed by the full faith and credit of an issuing government."
Seems reasonable to me.  If it's fiat, i want it to be the fiat of a large, known & powerful entity, not "a laptop of a single hacker."

And take it easy on the melodrama. "...crypto-currencies have removed the need for trust, or better said blind faith, in any institution or actor."  ORLY?  Tell me more about Pirateat40, Patrick, PMBs & 40%+ failure rate of Bitcoin businesses?

He's talking about bitcoin itself, as it is decentralized and there's no risk of any institutions or single actor seizing your coins unlike Liberty Reserve, E-Gold, Paypal, Banks

As a user, i don't particularly care if it's Jack or Jill who stole from me, or if it's an institution.  Bitcoin transactions are both pseudo-anonymous & irreversible.  Both offer advantages & disadvantages.  One of the grave disadvantages is incredible potential for sending your coins and getting goose egg in return.  Escrow is absurdly inconvenient, requires a trusted third party, and is far from foolproof.  So yeah, ya gotta trust somebody, and, as history clearly shows, still get ripped. :-\

Wow. Shocking. Never thought that sentiment is that bad. :o

On the contrary.. just imagine, what will happen when it changes those non-believers convert.. ;D

Community, it's time to do some more positive promotion and spread Bitcoin love!

Holy shit that thread is annoying!! The burden of proof falls on fiat not Bitcoin!

That's... a terribly depressing thought.

Just wanted to bump this to bring attention the shift of the general feeling towards bitcoin (positive) in the OP thread

http://forums.firefallthegame.com/community/threads/will-you-guys-consider-accepting-bitcoin.896741/

The general population is insanely ignorant about the current financial/banking system as well, but they just sheepishly follow the instructions given to them.

I wouldn't say they follow ... they simply don't have a choice.

That's because bitcoin is still early stage.  Pirate and others were at an even earlier stage.  You don't worry that if you give the girl at a coffee shop 20 bucks you'll get coffee and your change do you?  At a point were bitcoin is more widely used it will also be more balanced since stealing a tiny fraction will not be as worth it as stealing huge % of the entire monetary supply.  Oh and regular biz failure rate is higher then 40%

wow I would have thought gamers more open minded. my favorite quote

You think that is cringeworthy check this one out

lol I know, the only thing I could think is if it were someone really old, getting mixed up thinking back to when that might have been true.