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Title: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: Hydrogen on December 03, 2017, 04:03:09 AM Quote On November 28, 2017, the US Senate, Committee of the Judiciary held a hearing regarding bill S.1241: Modernizing AML Laws to Combat Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing. Despite little attention being given to digital currencies during the hearing, bill S.1241 itself would amend the definition of ‘financial institution’ in the United States Code to include digital currencies and digital exchanges. This could have alarming consequences for users of cryptocurrencies both in the US and abroad. Bill S.1241 would amend the definition of ‘financial institution,’ in Section 5312(a) of title 31, United States Code, to include “an issuer, redeemer, or cashier of prepaid access devices, digital currency, or any digital exchanger or tumbler of digital currency.” Currently, the definition of ‘financial institution’ includes banks, trust companies, credit unions, currency exchanges, etc. In her introduction, Mrs. Feinstein, Ranking Member of the Judiciary Committee, said (31:35), “The bill criminalizes intentionally concealing ownership or control of a bank account.” Although, during the hearing, no further clarifications were given as to the effects this would have on the cryptocurrency community, based on the amended definition of ‘financial institution’, it seems clear enough that the bill would “criminalize [those] intentionally concealing ownership or control of a [digital currency or digital exchange] account.” Wow. Let this sink in for a minute… The US senate is proposing a bill to make criminals out of anyone intentionally concealing ownership or control of a digital currency or digital exchange account. What’s more, according to the hearing’s prolonged discussion of US law enforcement’s handling of foreign banks and financial institutions, this bill is certain to have far-reaching effects on not only US citizens but the global community as a whole. If the above statement describes you, it is strongly recommended that you watch the hearing with this new definition of ‘financial institution’ in mind. If you’ve already watched the hearing, watch it again, but this time replace all mentions of ‘banks and financial institutions’ with ‘digital currencies and digital exchanges.’ The implications are really rather alarming. Interestingly enough, Ms. Kathryn Haun Rodriguez, a Coinbase Board of Directors Member, made absolutely no mention of digital currencies or digital exchanges in her testimony; nor was she asked any questions pertaining to these topics. Conversely, in her July 2017 written testimony to the US House of Representatives Committee on Financial Services and Subcommittee on Terrorism and Illicit Finance, she stated that some users of digital currencies use them “to conceal and move illicit proceeds because of the perception that virtual currency is untraceable.” Also in her prior written testimony, she stated that “the FinTech industry could be a very helpful partner to the government in addressing national security concerns;” that “investigators like digital footprints and that is exactly what digital currencies provide;” and that “of course, we can only follow the money to an individual or group if they used a Regulated exchange, one that follows basic AML/KYC laws.” Contrary to the bill itself, the hearing was noticeably lacking in references to cryptocurrencies; although there was some limited mention of such. Ms. Klobuchar (2:16:58): Quote “Is this transition we’re seeing from cash to digital going to make it easier or harder for law enforcement to track these money laundering cases, and you think these drug cartels are gonna start going cash free, and what do you do about it?” Mr. John A. Cassara (2:17:15): Quote “Senator, I’m just glad I had my career when I did because I don’t know what I’d do trying to follow the money when it comes to digital currencies, it’s extremely, extremely challenging…I think if you look at the metrics, the metrics suggest today [that] digital currencies are a small fraction of the threat that we face. That’s not to say it’s gonna be the case in 5-10 years from now. We’re right at a crossroads, and it’s going to be very, very interesting to see what goes forward.” Due to the probable negative implications for the global cryptocurrency community, hopefully the interpretation of bill S.1241 in this article is proven incorrect; however, at this point, it seems fairly clear (at least to me, the author) that this is the intent behind the bill. If this is indeed the case, it will be the most recent attack on a growing list of State-backed attacks against the crypto-community (https://btcmanager.com/state-vs-free-market-crypto-vigilantes/). Furthermore, from the noticeable lack of references made to digital currencies during the hearing, it would appear this bill is yet another underhanded attempt of the US Government to further erode global freedoms and civil liberties, which markedly began with the introduction of the Patriot Act, shortly after the 9/11 attacks. As Tone Vayes mentioned, it would have been nice if Andreas Antonopoulos was there to impart some of the wisdom he shared with the Canadian Senate, on October 8, 2014. Tone Vayes’ summation*: “It’s bad…I think it’s gonna end in a very confrontational way between Bitcoin—even Bitcoin holders and users—and the US Government.” Jimmy Song’s summation*: “Yeah, the nice thing about laws is they take a long time…” Indeed it will be “very, very interesting to see what goes forward.” If this bill passes, how many of you future criminals out there are still set on hodling? https://btcmanager.com/us-senate-bill-s-1241-criminalize-concealed-ownership-bitcoin/ .... This is the first update I've seen on US Senate Bill 1241 which could represent a first attempt at legal crackdown on crypto. There's a decent probability the rest of the world could follow in the USA's footsteps if these policies are adopted. Previously, it was reported on zerohedge that US Senate Bill 1241 could allow for state confiscation of crypto currencies without oversight or probable cause. I think some of what the bill contains is tentative and could change. Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: LeGaulois on December 03, 2017, 06:24:18 PM It's not going to do anything. The only thing is people will look more to use the anonymous altcoins and so good luck to them with that. What will they do then? Oh wait; it may be a good news since the anon coins value will rise at a good level. Good luck to them trying to watch people using anon coins.
They are focusing their resources on the wrong side...literally... Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: Silberman on December 03, 2017, 07:29:57 PM It's not going to do anything. The only thing is people will look more to use the anonymous altcoins and so good luck to them with that. What will they do then? Oh wait; it may be a good news since the anon coins value will rise at a good level. Good luck to them trying to watch people using anon coins. This is something I think as well, governments have two routes, they either accept cryptocurrencies and try to integrate them to the formal economy and make their best to not pursue crypto users, or they can take the criminal route and think that everyone that holds bitcoin is a criminal, if they follow the latter that is only going to harden the position of many and are going to use coins that are more difficult to trace.They are focusing their resources on the wrong side...literally... Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: Jating on December 03, 2017, 08:21:02 PM It's not going to do anything. The only thing is people will look more to use the anonymous altcoins and so good luck to them with that. What will they do then? Oh wait; it may be a good news since the anon coins value will rise at a good level. Good luck to them trying to watch people using anon coins. This is something I think as well, governments have two routes, they either accept cryptocurrencies and try to integrate them to the formal economy and make their best to not pursue crypto users, or they can take the criminal route and think that everyone that holds bitcoin is a criminal, if they follow the latter that is only going to harden the position of many and are going to use coins that are more difficult to trace.They are focusing their resources on the wrong side...literally... I also believed that it can't do anything. People will just try to find other ways to have bitcoin in their possession or any other altcoin in general like Monero or just used a tumbling services to hide their bitcoin. Government should really look bitcoin at the bright side and not just its negativity. Zcash and Monero or even Dash maybe the best route to take it they really wants to hide their cryptos as those three offers more anon than bitcoin in my opinion. Sadly, I just find this kind of thing very alarming because cypto are here to stay whether they like it or not. Why not just legalized or regulate it instead of an outlaw? We going back a step ahead instead of moving forward and embrace this new technology. Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: hase0278 on December 03, 2017, 09:54:09 PM This is something I think as well, governments have two routes, they either accept cryptocurrencies and try to integrate them to the formal economy and make their best to not pursue crypto users, or they can take the criminal route and think that everyone that holds bitcoin is a criminal, if they follow the latter that is only going to harden the position of many and are going to use coins that are more difficult to trace. Instead of banning it, they should have had use it to their advantage like how Japan did when they legalized bitcoin. They will probably use coins with more anonymity like you said. Some might even consider moving into another country if they want to continue to use btc. I think this move they have made is a wrong move, they will surely suffer losses in the future if btc were to become mainstream. The most possible effect when it happens is that they would be left behind in case usage of fiat is seized. It might not happen soon though.Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: krigger on December 03, 2017, 11:05:21 PM What does "Concealed ownership of Bitcoin" even mean? That doesn't even make sense. Like, it is perfectly legal to own cash and hold it in your house so why not be able to own Bitcoin and hold it without reporting to someone? That is abdsolutely brutal and authorotarian. People whould not worry about just keeping their Bitcoin to themselves and not reporting everything to the government.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: Razick on December 03, 2017, 11:27:01 PM Well it is about time we see the US goverment cracking down on Bitcoin. Not that I am a fan of it, but we all knew it was going to happen. The price cannot grow this high without some intervention being done by governments. Too bad the US gov sold all of those Silk Road coins or they would be loving Bitcoin a lot more right now. They need to shut down another exchange and steal all the coins. NOT.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: Cyberczar on December 03, 2017, 11:28:57 PM That's to be expected. There are a lot of people who feel they can evade tax by leaving their money in bitcoin. I think the law is trying to make them realise they could be in trouble by not declaring what crypt I currencies they hold at every point in time. Your best bet to avoid being on the wrong side of the law is to declare how much crypto you have whenever you are converting from cryptocurrency to fiat and vice versa. That way you can be sure of not being charged with tax evasion.
With time the laws governing digital currencies will get clearer and the best approach is to seek the counsel of your financial advisor or lawyer. They are going to use some folks as scapegoats in this and many countries will follow suit in a bid not to miss out on taxes. Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: neurotypical on December 04, 2017, 12:00:10 AM I don't see how people are surprised that if they used Coinbase or other similar services, would get any sort of privacy out of it. The only way to have privacy in this world is if you accept payments in BTC, if you mined the BTC, or if you buy it over the counter, the rest of methods will always leave a track so you better be ready to explain the taxman what you are doing there. I have nothing to hide because all my bitcoins are of legal origin, but I just want to ask:
If you own BTC, but you don't report it and they never know until you sell them to buy some real estate for example, what would they say? You were committing a crime in theory by not reporting that you had BTC, so what happens when you sell them to buy a house and they realize you had them but never reported them?? Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: richardsNY on December 04, 2017, 12:18:25 AM At some point all governments will start to force exchanges to report user information on a yearly basis to collect taxes from people who would likely never even consider declaring their holdings themselves. Result is that it will make peer to peer markets even more popular than they already are. Regulations will become far stricter than they have ever been, that's for sure, and the aforementioned is something that we have seen a first glimpse of already (referring to Coinbase). It's basically like this, if you don't feed the government by free will, they will take it by force. It's pathetic if you think about it, but that's how it works.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: bribed on December 04, 2017, 12:49:59 AM I agree that there is a need for regulation of some sort. But hopefully the world wont let the usa dictate this regulations. This would be for the bad of the cryptospace and for the bad of global economy imo.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: eddie13 on December 04, 2017, 12:59:04 AM I think I'm going to not worry about it too much because I'll pay taxes on anything I sell for usd and I'm not a criminal and not intentionally trying to hide anything...
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: kaya11 on December 04, 2017, 02:47:48 AM Lame excuses for tracking down illicit terrorist and drug cartel actions, they've already banned most of the accused terrorists' hideout countries (syria , palestine, iraq, etc.). Hope that Bill remains there in your country and ours won't follow.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: squatz1 on December 04, 2017, 03:47:06 AM I mean, I think this bill is just a statement to the cryptocurrency community-- pretty much saying that they have the votes (and power) to do as they please if they'd like to. This is a power play by the US government and those that run it, because we all know that the government and the politicans inside of it can make our lives a living hell by making owning Bitcoins something which is very hard to do. Gosh it could be a shit-show.
This'll also deter new users from coming into Bitcoin as they'll see the governments stance on Bitcoin. Kinda horrid, I'd recommend calling your rep or senator. Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: Kingofbitcoin12345 on December 04, 2017, 04:00:13 AM This possibility is in circulation/news that’s been monitored here in the forum,, making it unsurprising at all.. I do know if they what is the end result of it but until it is still not fully implemented the result would be speculative at this time.. I’m not against regulation or any law passed for the protection of one country but to used excuses like “can be used by illegal act” is already a lame and uncalled for..
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: CryptoBry on December 04, 2017, 04:22:11 AM Many governments are really threaten by something they could not completely control on their hands. Even in China right now, there are still many who are actively participating in the Bitcoin market and the government is losing possible tax revenues had they not banned its open trading activities. They do not understand the fact that cryptocurrencies are actually acting now as currency and as such there is no point of requiring Bitcoin holders to declare what they got...instead the government may require a report when Bitcoin is exchanged for fiat under certain threshold of amount. Anyway, let's see how things will develop on this area. We are just hoping that the USA government authorities would not be myopic in their approach (just like they are doing with other issues).
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: Silberman on December 08, 2017, 09:49:34 PM This is something I think as well, governments have two routes, they either accept cryptocurrencies and try to integrate them to the formal economy and make their best to not pursue crypto users, or they can take the criminal route and think that everyone that holds bitcoin is a criminal, if they follow the latter that is only going to harden the position of many and are going to use coins that are more difficult to trace. Instead of banning it, they should have had use it to their advantage like how Japan did when they legalized bitcoin. They will probably use coins with more anonymity like you said. Some might even consider moving into another country if they want to continue to use btc. I think this move they have made is a wrong move, they will surely suffer losses in the future if btc were to become mainstream. The most possible effect when it happens is that they would be left behind in case usage of fiat is seized. It might not happen soon though.Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: ivrynx on December 08, 2017, 11:58:23 PM This is against the law, i find it like trying to take over your bank accounts, bitcoin's characteristics is being anonymous, as well as the banks, they will keep your money and will not allow anyone to have access on it, i do not see, what is the difference between banks, and peopld who keep the money in a safe place. Bitcoin that is being kept in our wallets, was not stolen in the first place, why would they want to criminalize a person, they should ask help from japan and ask, how did they do it, if it is because japanese are disciplined people, then i think it will be our fault, not being disciplined.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: salterious on December 09, 2017, 12:27:41 AM I mean what did you all expect after the IRS essentially raided Coinbase's records with the permission of the judges. If you thought the search and snooping would stop there you are all naive as hell. I didn't expect anything less from the U S of A because that is what they like to do get on your case really hard prior to anything happening. It is good for them but I don't really think this will solve any problems moving forward and as some have alluded I think this will pave the way even more so for anon cryptos than it already has.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: thr3 on December 09, 2017, 01:27:12 AM From the wording it doesnt seem like it only applies to Bitcoins but to all cryptocurrencies. This is already a problem at the moment because people are already going to jail for trading assets with cash.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: bribed on December 10, 2017, 12:31:02 AM From the wording it doesnt seem like it only applies to Bitcoins but to all cryptocurrencies. This is already a problem at the moment because people are already going to jail for trading assets with cash. Can you evaluate a bit what you mean? In what jurisdications are people going to jail because they are trading crypto for fiat? Or do you mean by this, that they trade assets for cash to evade taxation somehow? If so, then I also think that this should be punished. Crypto cant be a law free heaven for all people that want to evade taxation, if it was, it could never grow to mainstream adoption, and this is what we all want to happen I suppose, so we need to make arrangements with the governments, thats for sure. Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: thr3 on December 10, 2017, 02:04:33 AM From the wording it doesnt seem like it only applies to Bitcoins but to all cryptocurrencies. This is already a problem at the moment because people are already going to jail for trading assets with cash. Can you evaluate a bit what you mean? In what jurisdications are people going to jail because they are trading crypto for fiat? Or do you mean by this, that they trade assets for cash to evade taxation somehow? If so, then I also think that this should be punished. Crypto cant be a law free heaven for all people that want to evade taxation, if it was, it could never grow to mainstream adoption, and this is what we all want to happen I suppose, so we need to make arrangements with the governments, thats for sure. https://cryptostreet.co/man-from-michigan-to-serve-1-year-in-prison-for-trading-bitcoins/ (https://cryptostreet.co/man-from-michigan-to-serve-1-year-in-prison-for-trading-bitcoins/) According to tax laws in the US, cryptocurrencies are assets. Selling them or trading them at a profit requires a tax declaration of some kind - capital gains tax (and vice versa to declare a loss). The case above was from a different regulatory body called FinCen which regulates financial transactions. A lot of people in the space are already on the wrong side of the law at the moment but you cant really blame them for it. I agree that crypto should not be used for evading taxes as I am a firm believer that everyone needs to pay their fair share of tax. However, more regulations in the space can be bad for growth --- as I believe in a free market, the market should self-regulate the good from the bad. Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: Silberman on December 12, 2017, 07:20:47 PM What does "Concealed ownership of Bitcoin" even mean? That doesn't even make sense. Like, it is perfectly legal to own cash and hold it in your house so why not be able to own Bitcoin and hold it without reporting to someone? That is abdsolutely brutal and authorotarian. People whould not worry about just keeping their Bitcoin to themselves and not reporting everything to the government. That is just their way of criminalizing holding bitcoin without actually doing that, as you say you can hold cash or even gold without having to report it but when it comes to bitcoin they want to know exactly how much you are holding, it is obvious this is a law against bitcoin holders, however at the end like most laws is not going to work since many holders are simply not going to comply.Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: hozerdev on December 12, 2017, 09:21:24 PM https://cryptostreet.co/man-from-michigan-to-serve-1-year-in-prison-for-trading-bitcoins/ (https://cryptostreet.co/man-from-michigan-to-serve-1-year-in-prison-for-trading-bitcoins/) This is really bad. According to tax laws in the US, cryptocurrencies are assets. Selling them or trading them at a profit requires a tax declaration of some kind - capital gains tax (and vice versa to declare a loss). The case above was from a different regulatory body called FinCen which regulates financial transactions. A lot of people in the space are already on the wrong side of the law at the moment but you cant really blame them for it. I agree that crypto should not be used for evading taxes as I am a firm believer that everyone needs to pay their fair share of tax. However, more regulations in the space can be bad for growth --- as I believe in a free market, the market should self-regulate the good from the bad. He violated Title 18, United States Code, Section 1960. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1960 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1960) Not sure though if the term the "unlicensed money transmitting business" can be applied to individual money transfers. Most likely it because hey used the business bank account of corporation he owned to transfer money. But any comments from a legal professional would be appreciated. Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: marky89 on December 12, 2017, 09:59:14 PM That is just their way of criminalizing holding bitcoin without actually doing that, as you say you can hold cash or even gold without having to report it but when it comes to bitcoin they want to know exactly how much you are holding As written, the bill doesn't entail that. I don't see anything that says cryptocurrency holdings must be declared. Rather, they seem to be targeting Bitcoin/cryptocurrency services. The expansion of the definition of "financial institution" would make exchanges, brokers, tumblers and perhaps even payment processors (Bitpay/Shapeshift) implement stiff AML/KYC protocols when interfacing with US customers. If passed, I think a lot of services will begin prohibiting US customers. At that point, things get more complicated for US residents. The bill essentially makes it unlawful for US residents to misrepresent or conceal their identity to these services. For example, I think that using fake personal information on no-KYC or low-KYC exchanges will become illegal if this bill is passed. That doesn't mean you need to declare crypto holdings, but it provides a deterrent to tax evasion when taking profits. Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: kier010 on December 12, 2017, 11:12:11 PM because bitcoin is decentralized it had been used in illegal activities so maybe the government is to prevent this people from doing illegal. or it is just government want to tax this bitcoin holder.
Title: Re: IMPORTANT! - US Senate Bill S.1241 to Criminalize Concealed Ownership of Bitcoin Post by: drshade1 on December 12, 2017, 11:24:31 PM 2018 is going to be a busy year, just make sure you're prepared and safe
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