Bitcoin Forum

Considering their Sept ship date and the incoming rise in difficulty?

You can get a better overview over equipment from this link

http://decentralizedhashing.com/bitcoin-mining-equipment-table/

I think no matter what Rig you decide to go with it will be worth it in the long run. Just get the best value for your investment and don't worry about ROI. People always say it's not worth it, but you're investing on the possibility that maybe Bitcoin will go up in value. Plus, you can always sell your Rig later on.

Nonsense, unless you want to randomly throw away money, ROI is very important. Difficulty will rise and it is not outside the realm of possibilities that some of these devices will not make you any profit. Problem is predicting future difficulty. If KNC ships in september, then that's 4-6 difficulty adjustments away from today. Difficulty could've doubled by then.

If you are betting on the BTC price going up, you should just buy BTC and keep it in a wallet or a low-risk investment. It is a fallacy to reason that investing in something that incurs a BTC-loss is okay if the price of BTC goes up to compensate.


For how much? The value of the mining rig will be inversely proportional to the difficulty. If the difficulty doubles, people will be willing to pay half of what they are willing to pay today. Unlike GPUs, which have a very popular alternative purpose (gaming) and retain a lot of resale value because of it, ASIC miners are solely for mining. If that isn't profitable, the miner won't be worth much.

I'm not saying that all ASICs are bad investments. Just be careful and run some numbers on pessimistic scenarios to see what your expected returns are. ASICs aren't get-rich-quick-machines.

This is pretty helpful. Thank you.

Bitfury price is wrong
October 400GH/s is 7500,-
August 400GH/s is 15000,-

Very insightful. I've done the calculation and it seems that KNC Jupiter is still a pretty good investment.

I was trying to place an order but couldn't seem to be able to pay through Paypal though.

The better question is not roi, but when will knc get their product out the door. September seems overly optimistic.

This too is a valid point. BFL rigs were probably great ROI when they were announced, but if you count in the delivery delay, ROI is greatly reduced. KNC hasn't shipped any ASICs before, so it remains to be seen if they can meet their delivery targets.

Im still debating that, I looked at buying say 3 x Jupiter (I have one on order now) and still with all 4 the return with shipping dates from October doesn't seem worth it if you run the ROI calcs until they are no longer covering electric. I still think I am better of just holding bitcoins and waiting to see what happens. Thats just me though

Selling the one you have on order to me then? : ;)

It's pretty simple, if they delivered the advertised performance on the advertised dates, then yes, it's still worth it.
As I think that is an extraordinarily unlikely scenario - no, it's not worth it for me.

Bitly its yours mate, but as im October shipping you wont get much further ahead in the que so will prob come to the same conclusion as me!

Even from ORSoc's word, where is the actual first push? Currently only few provide. Regardless it is, the dynamic chart may be bad idea at a moment so better buy shares instead of buying actual one.

Once the price of BTC drops below $50 it's potentially more profitable to just buy BTC instead of ordering a Jupiter and hoping it will ship on time. And looking at the charts it doesn't seem that unlikely to dip below $50 this Summer. Either way waiting for lower prices is less risky imo and probably the better choice overall. That said I do have a Jupiter on pre-order, but I will get a refund if price drops below $50 and buy BTC instead.

What is their refund policy btw?  I couldn't find it anywhere. 

I would guess knc will be late to the game because they've chosen such a small fab size to work with. Bitfury already appears to have mature 55 nm process that's offering the same efficiency as they advertise.

i placed an order for mercury, but i have not paid yet, i'm still puzzling about if first i get roi ...

october shipping




me neither

KnCMiner is an EU registered company, so they need to comply to EU laws - for consumers returns of goods is possible up to 7 days after delivery!
Of course, they don't deal with consumers, they are selling for bussiness use only!
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc
What that really means is there are no refunds. Or, as US companies are saying 'all sales are final'.

First and foremost they are under Swedish law. We have an open return law in Sweden of 14 days after delivery when buying goods over internet and/or telephone. You have a right to cancel any order for refund which has not been delivered in timely fashion from promised delivery date. 1 year warranty, free repair or exchange if goods fault within the first six months. We have a very capable state consumer agency that can help anyone if they have any trouble ( http://www.konsumentverket.se/otherlanguages/English/About-the-Swedish-Consumer-Agency/ ). So you are well protected when buying from a Swedish company (which is ultimately why I bought from them).

That EU law (distant selling) is when dealing with consumers. Private buyers only, not bussiness.
KnC 'Terms and Conditions' states, they are selling to bussiness only, and then there is no consumer protection, and no 'cooling off' period.
https://www.kncminer.com/pages/tandc

You´re correct. However, you can't override law in your terms and conditions. Unless you have presented business credentials when you bought the device (vat no, business id, etc) standard consumer law stands (double checked with the our consumer agency) and EU directives as well. 

Obviously, they think they can.
There are lots of things missing from their website that are mandatory by EU laws.

Their site shows a bunch of diagrams, plans, etc but am I correct that there are no working models yet (mars aside)?

What indications do any of us have that KNC isn't following in BFL's footsteps and promising things that they really shouldn't be at this point in the product development process?

Do you guys think that a minirig is a better bet than a jupiter, even at the much higher price and wattage, and even if BFL will deliver it in oct at the earliest?

I really, really want to believe in KNC at this point, given BFL's track record, but I get the feeling that I may be overly optimistic.

Hash rate has jumped to 297,621Gh/s from 187,281GH/s since July 11^th a 59% rise in 10 days!

This is only the beginning of huge spike in ASIC deliveries. No machine will repay investment if delivered in October!

KnCMiner's machines are likely to be delayed even if only slightly. Is expected with a complex & advanced machine as is being offered. Especially considering even existing proven manufacturers are delivering late.

I have an order & am still worried about coming difficulty rises resulting in negative ROI.

Where are you seeing those hash rates?  I'm using this chart - http://bitcoindifficulty.com/ (http://bitcoindifficulty.com/)

KnC is tightly integrated with ORSoC, which has been shipping ASICs since 2004.

Me too :(  Aurgh

Technically we can still cancel should this get any worse?  Playing with the numbers on Genesis Block, if delivered at end of October (basically Nov timeframe) we're totally screwed?  It's showing negative ROI

Yeah, we can cancel until September, however Given KnC's track record they may offer to double the order or something to make up for it. They can only afford to cancel so many orders, since they already paid to fab the chips, but sending extra chips wouldn't cost the customers as much.

^This

I've opted to buy shares in a Jupiter. It's an affordable way for me to get into a decent hashrate.

I was planing in placing an order now!!!....but after hearing you guys, I don't know!!!
Do you know when were the first orders taken??? ???

The orders started Jun 3. The pre-orders started months before.

Some people are reporting the status of their orders here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=249065.0

Notice that the next update from the replies is only due 11 of August by AFox.

One thing I will add to this discussion is that CloudHashing.com is one of the first KnC customers in the queue, and they have reported that their delivery is still on track for September. They've also added another 20.X TH/s of orders recently. Granted, they have every incentive to say this in order to sell more contracts, but I am tentatively optimistic that they actually do have some special knowledge that we don't. This does not speak to when orders placed now will ship, but hopefully at the very least their September orders will arrive in September.

The other thing of note is that KnC has consistently maintained that they are under-promising in order to over-produce, and as of yet they have given no indication that they need to revise delivery projections.

By my calculations, even if you receive a Jupiter when the difficulty is like 120 million, it will still be profitable, though the profit will level off relatively shortly after break even so it won't exactly be printing money. The reason that I went with CloudHashing mining contracts is because of their 30% revenue reinvestment which will hopefully allow my hashrate to appreciate with the difficulty and keep me on the cutting edge of new ASIC technologies as they hit the market. As an individual miner, 30% revenue reinvestment can't really work in the same way because of the high upfront costs of doing any upgrades.

Just my $0.02.

Very helpful thoughts. Thanks.

I eventually ordered mine individually. I need to look into CloudHashing.com

Update from CloudHashing, they expect to have 105 TH/s from KnC up and running by the end of September: http://www.cloudhashing.com/newsletter/august2013.html

If I were to buy Jupiter now the shipment would be in October (I have contacted KnC and they cannot specify when in October) will it make sense considering most of the orders will be already delivered in September.

I have been trying to decide where ever or not it is worth it to buy a KNC now for the October run before it closes. I must have read these sites a million times to try and decide. I think come End of October with the influx of KNC equipment hashing in Sept the difficulty is going to go way off the chart.

I dont think it would ROI :(

Gutted as i really want to mine some bloody coins, just now is a shit time to buy equipment if you havent got in early! Think i will hold off and buy the next gen equipment which will be the terrahash range :)

They've also said they will be dropping prices significantly for November once October fills up. If you're caught on the edge of that it could be more profitable to wait...

At this point my answer would be if your delivery date is likely to be Sep or Oct, then yes it is a pretty good bet.
If not, save up and wait for genertion 2 which will be beginning of next year.

...by which time you'd need to ask the question whether it is still worth buying gen2 or not  ;D

Bullshit, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You've been reading into posts by KS and he is a troll who has lost a lot of money on Bitsyncom purchases (in excess of $100k), and spends an inordinate amount of time spreading FUD in the KnC thread with no intention of purchasing, yet goes and dumps $100k+ (that was only on the boards and assembly, let alone chips) with an unsecured payment method. Do some fricking research and stop spreading crap.

Unless specifically underwritten in the terms and conditions, as an exclusion clause your statutory rights, in the Uk are upheld. Presumably this is EU wide, but double check in which weever country you are from.

How do you know if the contract (business to business) takes away your statutory rights?

If the person who sold you the goods or services has taken away your statutory rights, there should be something in your contract about this. For example, it might say  the seller isn't responsible for goods that are unsatisfactory, don't match their description or aren't fit for purpose. Or it might say that the seller isn't responsible for any loss you've suffered because of their lack of care or skill. This type of content in a contract is called an exclusion clause.


http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_problems_with_business_to_business_services_e/consumer_protection_for_businesses.htm