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Title: Coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: gweedo on July 12, 2013, 06:54:28 AM This is a warning! Don't use these site, TF can access your password at anytime! And take over your other accounts.
https://i.imgur.com/sS5Yo52.jpg Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: favdesu on July 12, 2013, 07:15:41 AM bullshit,
WOW Your not a programmer, your a con, this is horrible. Should be salted and using a hash like bcrypt that can't be brute forced, so you can't post users passwords, that is the worst thing ever! I use bcrypt for Inputs, and good salts for CoinLenders.I don't care if I upset or violate the privacy of scammers. If you dislike this policy, you can (1) not scam people or (2) not use my services. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: scotaloo on July 12, 2013, 07:16:58 AM What's even funnier about the whole thing is, he's accusing me of all this crap, and those nicks are just people who use TOR ip's, only 4 are mine rest are innocent users he 'nuked' which takes their account balance too, I'm going to contact them to ask them to make a scam accusation against TF on here as he's essentially defrauded them out of their BTC on coinchat for no reason other than he made a mistake.
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: keatonatron on July 12, 2013, 07:20:42 AM So, use a password that won't show up in a rainbow table and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: scotaloo on July 12, 2013, 07:22:24 AM So your going to believe him if one of his sites doesn't have for sure, I am 100% none of his sites do. Just a programming hence, I use the same template for all my sites, and 99% of programmers do. So yeah. If you believe him then good for you, but I am not. I recommend you port scan his server too... or I recommend you don't if you have BTC with him....It's shocking. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: favdesu on July 12, 2013, 07:30:45 AM bullshit, WOW Your not a programmer, your a con, this is horrible. Should be salted and using a hash like bcrypt that can't be brute forced, so you can't post users passwords, that is the worst thing ever! I use bcrypt for Inputs, and good salts for CoinLenders.I don't care if I upset or violate the privacy of scammers. If you dislike this policy, you can (1) not scam people or (2) not use my services. So your going to believe him if one of his sites doesn't have for sure, I am 100% none of his sites do. Just a programming hence, I use the same template for all my sites, and 99% of programmers do. So yeah. If you believe him then good for you, but I am not. yes, I believe him. This is a warning! Don't use these sites, TF can access your password at anytime! And take over your other accounts. so, someone post the nmap and we'll analyze it. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: scotaloo on July 12, 2013, 07:49:32 AM Don't worry its perfectly legal to possess hacking software here and people need to see this, so:
Quote $ nmap -T4 -A -v -PE -PS22,25,80 -PA21,23,80,3389 coinchat.org Starting Nmap 5.21 ( http://nmap.org ) at 2013-07-12 08:48 IST NSE: Loaded 36 scripts for scanning. Initiating Ping Scan at 08:48 Scanning coinchat.org (192.155.86.153) [8 ports] Completed Ping Scan at 08:48, 0.20s elapsed (1 total hosts) Initiating Parallel DNS resolution of 1 host. at 08:48 Completed Parallel DNS resolution of 1 host. at 08:48, 0.05s elapsed Initiating SYN Stealth Scan at 08:48 Scanning coinchat.org (192.155.86.153) [1000 ports] Discovered open port 80/tcp on 192.155.86.153 Discovered open port 22/tcp on 192.155.86.153 Discovered open port 8888/tcp on 192.155.86.153 Discovered open port 8000/tcp on 192.155.86.153 Discovered open port 9000/tcp on 192.155.86.153 Discovered open port 8333/tcp on 192.155.86.153 Completed SYN Stealth Scan at 08:48, 5.86s elapsed (1000 total ports) Initiating Service scan at 08:48 Scanning 6 services on coinchat.org (192.155.86.153) Completed Service scan at 08:49, 31.61s elapsed (6 services on 1 host) Initiating OS detection (try #1) against coinchat.org (192.155.86.153) Retrying OS detection (try #2) against coinchat.org (192.155.86.153) Initiating Traceroute at 08:49 Completed Traceroute at 08:49, 0.20s elapsed Initiating Parallel DNS resolution of 10 hosts. at 08:49 Completed Parallel DNS resolution of 10 hosts. at 08:49, 0.10s elapsed NSE: Script scanning 192.155.86.153. NSE: Starting runlevel 1 (of 1) scan. Initiating NSE at 08:49 Completed NSE at 08:49, 30.34s elapsed NSE: Script Scanning completed. Nmap scan report for coinchat.org (192.155.86.153) Host is up (0.19s latency). rDNS record for 192.155.86.153: mafiahunt.net Not shown: 985 closed ports PORT STATE SERVICE VERSION 22/tcp open ssh OpenSSH 5.9p1 Debian 5ubuntu1.1 (protocol 2.0) | ssh-hostkey: 1024 87:73:ff:39:8c:14:99:b2:a7:09:f8:2f:e1:95:b7:ba (DSA) |_2048 0e:dc:0c:ff:45:c0:a1:f4:69:4e:58:80:f4:5d:f4:b7 (RSA) 25/tcp filtered smtp 80/tcp open http? 2710/tcp filtered unknown 6666/tcp filtered irc 6667/tcp filtered irc 6668/tcp filtered irc 6669/tcp filtered irc 6969/tcp filtered acmsoda 7000/tcp filtered afs3-fileserver 8000/tcp open http Apache httpd 2.2.22 ((Ubuntu)) |_html-title: MafiaHunt - Realtime Mafia on the web | http-open-proxy: Potentially OPEN proxy. |_Methods supported: CONNECTION 8333/tcp open tcpwrapped 8888/tcp open sun-answerbook? 9000/tcp open cslistener? 9090/tcp filtered zeus-admin 3 services unrecognized despite returning data. If you know the service/version, please submit the following fingerprints at http://www.insecure.org/cgi-bin/servicefp-submit.cgi : ==============NEXT SERVICE FINGERPRINT (SUBMIT INDIVIDUALLY)============== SF-Port80-TCP:V=5.21%I=7%D=7/12%Time=51DFB4D7%P=i686-pc-linux-gnu%r(GetReq SF:uest,52,"HTTP/1\.1\x20404\x20Not\x20Found\r\nDate:\x20Fri,\x2012\x20Jul SF:\x202013\x2007:48:38\x20GMT\r\nConnection:\x20close\r\n\r\n")%r(HTTPOpt SF:ions,52,"HTTP/1\.1\x20404\x20Not\x20Found\r\nDate:\x20Fri,\x2012\x20Jul SF:\x202013\x2007:48:39\x20GMT\r\nConnection:\x20close\r\n\r\n")%r(FourOhF SF:ourRequest,52,"HTTP/1\.1\x20404\x20Not\x20Found\r\nDate:\x20Fri,\x2012\ SF:x20Jul\x202013\x2007:48:40\x20GMT\r\nConnection:\x20close\r\n\r\n"); ==============NEXT SERVICE FINGERPRINT (SUBMIT INDIVIDUALLY)============== SF-Port8888-TCP:V=5.21%I=7%D=7/12%Time=51DFB4D7%P=i686-pc-linux-gnu%r(GetR SF:equest,1A1A,"HTTP/1\.1\x20200\x20OK\r\nDate:\x20Fri,\x2012\x20Jul\x2020 SF:13\x2007:48:38\x20GMT\r\nConnection:\x20close\r\n\r\n<!DOCTYPE\x20html> SF:\n<head>\n<title>CoinChat\x20-\x20free\x20bitcoins\x20and\x20chat\x20ro SF:om</title>\n<link\x20href=\"//netdna\.bootstrapcdn\.com/twitter-bootstr SF:ap/2\.3\.2/css/bootstrap-combined\.min\.css\"\x20rel=\"stylesheet\">\n< SF:link\x20href='static/css/default\.css'\x20type='text/css'\x20rel='style SF:sheet'>\n<link\x20rel=\"icon\"\x20type=\"image/png\"\x20href=\"static/i SF:mg/chat\.png\">\n<meta\x20name=\"description\"\x20content=\"A\x20web\x2 SF:0chatroom\x20-\x20discuss\x20and\x20chat\x20with\x20a\x20nice\x20stylis SF:h\x20functional\x20client\.\x20Works\x20everywhere,\x20Bitcoin\x20integ SF:rated\">\x20\n</head>\n<body>\n\t<div\x20class='container'>\n\t\t<div\x SF:20id='changepassmodal'\x20class='modal\x20fade\x20hide'>\n\t\t\t<div\x2 SF:0class='modal-header'>\n\t\t\t\t<button\x20type='button'\x20class='clos SF:e'\x20data-dismiss='modal'\x20aria-hidden='true'>×</button>\n\t\t SF:\t\t<h3>Change\x20Password</h3>\n\t\t\t</div>\n\t\t\t<div\x20class='mod SF:al-body'>\n\t\t\t\t<p>Change\x20the\x20password\x20for\x20this\x20accou SF:nt</p>\n\t\t\t\t<input\x20type='passw")%r(HTTPOptions,1A1A,"HTTP/1\.1\x SF:20200\x20OK\r\nDate:\x20Fri,\x2012\x20Jul\x202013\x2007:48:39\x20GMT\r\ SF:nConnection:\x20close\r\n\r\n<!DOCTYPE\x20html>\n<head>\n<title>CoinCha SF:t\x20-\x20free\x20bitcoins\x20and\x20chat\x20room</title>\n<link\x20hre SF:f=\"//netdna\.bootstrapcdn\.com/twitter-bootstrap/2\.3\.2/css/bootstrap SF:-combined\.min\.css\"\x20rel=\"stylesheet\">\n<link\x20href='static/css SF:/default\.css'\x20type='text/css'\x20rel='stylesheet'>\n<link\x20rel=\" SF:icon\"\x20type=\"image/png\"\x20href=\"static/img/chat\.png\">\n<meta\x SF:20name=\"description\"\x20content=\"A\x20web\x20chatroom\x20-\x20discus SF:s\x20and\x20chat\x20with\x20a\x20nice\x20stylish\x20functional\x20clien SF:t\.\x20Works\x20everywhere,\x20Bitcoin\x20integrated\">\x20\n</head>\n< SF:body>\n\t<div\x20class='container'>\n\t\t<div\x20id='changepassmodal'\x SF:20class='modal\x20fade\x20hide'>\n\t\t\t<div\x20class='modal-header'>\n SF:\t\t\t\t<button\x20type='button'\x20class='close'\x20data-dismiss='moda SF:l'\x20aria-hidden='true'>×</button>\n\t\t\t\t<h3>Change\x20Passwo SF:rd</h3>\n\t\t\t</div>\n\t\t\t<div\x20class='modal-body'>\n\t\t\t\t<p>Ch SF:ange\x20the\x20password\x20for\x20this\x20account</p>\n\t\t\t\t<input\x SF:20type='passw"); ==============NEXT SERVICE FINGERPRINT (SUBMIT INDIVIDUALLY)============== SF-Port9000-TCP:V=5.21%I=7%D=7/12%Time=51DFB4EA%P=i686-pc-linux-gnu%r(Four SF:OhFourRequest,472,"HTTP/1\.1\x20200\x20OK\r\nDate:\x20Fri,\x2012\x20Jul SF:\x202013\x2007:48:57\x20GMT\r\nConnection:\x20close\r\n\r\n<!DOCTYPE\x2 SF:0html>\n<html>\n<head>\n<script\x20src=\"socket\.io/socket\.io\.js\"></ SF:script>\n<script\x20src=\"static/jquery\.min\.js\"></script>\n<script\x SF:20src='static/jquery\.cookie\.js'></script>\n<script\x20src='static/scr SF:ipts\.js'></script>\n<script\x20src='\.\./js/chat\.js'></script>\n<scri SF:pt\x20src='/js/jquery-ui\.js'></script>\n<meta\x20http-equiv='Content-T SF:ype'\x20content='text/html;charset=UTF-8'\x20/>\n<link\x20rel=\"stylesh SF:eet\"\x20type=\"text/css\"\x20href='static/style\.css'\x20/>\n</head>\n SF:<body>\n<div\x20class='page'>\n\x20\x20<div\x20class='topmenu'>\n\x20\x SF:20\t<span\x20class='setup'>Loading\.\.</span>\n\x20\x20\t<span\x20class SF:='timer'>Loading\.\.</span>\n\x20\x20\t<span\x20class='leave'>Leave</sp SF:an>\n\x20\x20</div>\n\x20\x20<div\x20class='leftbox'>\n\x20\x20\t<div\x SF:20class='aliveyard'>\n\x20\x20\t</div>\n\x20\x20\t<div\x20class='gravey SF:ard'>\n\x20\x20\t</div>\n\x20\x20</div>\n\x20<div\x20class='dayNav'>\.\ SF:.\.</div>\n\x20\x20<div\x20class='content'>\n\t<div\x20class='hello'>Lo SF:ading\.\.\x20please\x20wait</div>\n\x20\x20</di"); Device type: WAP|general purpose|router|broadband router|webcam Running (JUST GUESSING) : Linux 2.6.X|2.4.X (91%), Linksys Linux 2.4.X (90%), D-Link embedded (87%), Linksys embedded (87%), Peplink embedded (87%), AXIS Linux 2.6.X (87%) Aggressive OS guesses: OpenWrt Kamikaze 7.09 (Linux 2.6.22) (91%), Linux 2.6.9 - 2.6.27 (91%), Linux 2.6.22 (Fedora Core 6) (91%), OpenWrt White Russian 0.9 (Linux 2.4.30) (90%), OpenWrt 0.9 - 7.09 (Linux 2.4.30 - 2.4.34) (90%), Linux 2.6.24 - 2.6.31 (89%), Linux 2.6.9 - 2.6.18 (89%), Linux 2.6.18 - 2.6.27 (88%), Linux 2.6.15 - 2.6.30 (88%), Linux 2.6.22 (88%) No exact OS matches for host (test conditions non-ideal). Uptime guess: 4.372 days (since Sun Jul 7 23:53:26 2013) Network Distance: 10 hops TCP Sequence Prediction: Difficulty=258 (Good luck!) IP ID Sequence Generation: All zeros Service Info: OS: Linux Read data files from: /usr/share/nmap OS and Service detection performed. Please report any incorrect results at http://nmap.org/submit/ . Nmap done: 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 73.28 seconds Raw packets sent: 1148 (52.820KB) | Rcvd: 1082 (45.508KB) Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: scotaloo on July 12, 2013, 07:51:06 AM Looks like he closed 3389 and a few others after I warned him a week ago, good job, but still :o a financial site
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: scotaloo on July 12, 2013, 07:51:55 AM Thank you kind sir, for taking the risk for all of us! Im likely about to be banned unfairly for being an alt of an account that I am not when theymos wakes up so meh I could care less. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 07:58:14 AM So your going to believe him if one of his sites doesn't have for sure, I am 100% none of his sites do. Just a programming hence, I use the same template for all my sites, and 99% of programmers do. So yeah. If you believe him then good for you, but I am not. Yeah good luck using a Node.js template for PHP ;D FUD like this is why you have a negative trust rating. I've already shown the source code function for CL. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:06:07 AM By hard proof, gweedo means that he wants the full source code and database of CoinLenders. I wonder what legitimate reasons he has for wanting the database? ??? ???
I've already found vulnerabilities in them. It's simple, provide me with a written & signed contract authorizing penetration testing on your site. The negative trust rating shows up for everyone by default, your negative trust rating shows up for no one except you. I suggest making a new throwaway and seeing what your profile looks like. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: escrow.ms on July 12, 2013, 08:07:37 AM Why are you guys abusing trust system for no reason?
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:08:49 AM Why are you guys abusing trust system for no reason? He's posting FUD (such as claiming that I don't hash or salt), when that's plainly untrue (your password is hashed in your browser for CoinLenders) which is untrustworthy.That's not very different from false scammer accusations, which would get you a negative trust rating. Go claim John K is a scammer (when it is untrue) and see what your trust score looks like later for example. Or claim that a web hosting company scammed you when you haven't purchased anything. Intentionally misleading statements are untrustworthy. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: escrow.ms on July 12, 2013, 08:11:39 AM The negative trust rating shows up for everyone by default, your negative trust rating shows up for no one except you. I suggest making a new throwaway and seeing what your profile looks like. No His ratings are red because you are in " DefaultTrust" Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:12:42 AM When did images become FUD and untrustworthy? I am not abusing any trust system, apparently he is very sensitive with this. He has extorted me to abuse the trust, he thinks he can hack me, and he just calling me untrustworthy which is slander. Quote This is a warning! Don't use these sites, TF can access your password at anytime! And take over your other accounts. Which is untrue. Your image shows that I don't salt passwords for CoinChat. I hash passwords with SHA256. So I cannot access your password at any time. That's an outright lie. For other sites I always salt at least. Quote No His ratings are red because you are in " DefaultTrust" That's my point? My ratings show up my default, his doesn't. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:13:04 AM Besides, if you ARE using the same password for more than one site / don't use a password manager / etc, you need to fix that.
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: escrow.ms on July 12, 2013, 08:16:12 AM That's my point? My ratings show up my default, his doesn't. :D VIP donator Badge have lots of benefits. ;D Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:18:01 AM CoinLenders and CoinChat hashes passwords.
CoinLenders also salt passwords. CoinLenders also hashes your password in your browser with Javascript. I cannot access your password (unlike what gweedo is claiming) on CoinLenders. I can only access the hash which is useless if it has been salted with a strong hash. Gweedo is spreading FUD that I don't do this. He is posting a misleading screenshot out of context. I DO hash passwords. I don't salt them for CoinChat, but they are hashed. As I am tired of saying the same thing again and again, this is now my stock response. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:22:20 AM CoinLenders and CoinChat hashes passwords.
CoinLenders also salt passwords. CoinLenders also hashes your password in your browser with Javascript. I cannot access your password (unlike what gweedo is claiming) on CoinLenders. I can only access the hash which is useless if it has been salted with a strong hash. Gweedo is spreading FUD that I don't do this. He is posting a misleading screenshot out of context. I DO hash passwords. I don't salt them for CoinChat, but they are hashed. As I am tired of saying the same thing again and again, this is now my stock response. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: escrow.ms on July 12, 2013, 08:22:44 AM @Trade if you want i can make a test account on both of your sites with a random password, you can then post hash with salt here and a screenshot of username /hash from database to prove him wrong.
You can also put a bounty to crack it. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: gweedo on July 12, 2013, 08:24:25 AM CoinLenders and CoinChat hashes passwords. CoinLenders also salt passwords. CoinLenders also hashes your password in your browser with Javascript. I cannot access your password (unlike what gweedo is claiming) on CoinLenders. I can only access the hash which is useless if it has been salted with a strong hash. Gweedo is spreading FUD that I don't do this. He is posting a misleading screenshot out of context. I DO hash passwords. I don't salt them for CoinChat, but they are hashed. As I am tired of saying the same thing again and again, this is now my stock response. Now he is spamming. @Trade if you want i can make a test account on both of your sites with a random password, you can then post hash with salt here and a screenshot of username /hash from database to prove him wrong. How do I know he didn't pay you just to say that. Also he could just take your stuff and throw into a hash generator. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:26:01 AM @Trade if you want i can make a test account on both of your sites with a random password, you can then post hash with salt here and a screenshot of username /hash from database to prove him wrong. You can also put a bounty to crack it. A few things: 1) He only takes full source code and database as proof apparenty 2) I am not disclosing my salt 3) If I wasn't hashing / salting them, I could just hash later. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: escrow.ms on July 12, 2013, 08:27:00 AM How do I know he didn't pay you just to say that. Also he could just take your stuff and throw into a hash generator. Because I do not work for him and he should post screenshot from online database (phpmyadmin). Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:27:38 AM Screenshots shouldn't be trusted, they can be faked.
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: gweedo on July 12, 2013, 08:27:41 AM 1) He only takes full source code and database as proof apparenty Only way in my book to prove it.2) I am not disclosing my salt *FACEPLAM* why would you disclose your salt, that would be pretty dumb and I never asked you to do that. 3) If I wasn't hashing / salting them, I could just hash later. Exactly. Plus I always said your not strongly hashing them. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:28:03 AM 1) He only takes full source code and database as proof apparenty Only way in my book to prove it.Thanks for this admission! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=254808.0 Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:30:53 AM Also, if you want your negative trust rating removed you just need to stop making false statements. Like the topic of this post.
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: escrow.ms on July 12, 2013, 08:32:35 AM Let me grab some popcorn.
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: gweedo on July 12, 2013, 08:32:57 AM https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=254808.0
LMAO you locked it LMAO Also, if you want your negative trust rating removed you just need to stop making false statements. Like the topic of this post. When you prove to me that you have taken the necessary security. Then i will stop making statements against you. Extorting my trust rating doesn't look good for you btw. ;) I don't care about rep, I still do my business like I will always. Just a prime example that power always get abused. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DeathAndTaxes on July 12, 2013, 08:35:28 AM 2) I am not disclosing my salt Wait what? Salt should be random and per record/account. Anything less doesn't prevent a parallel execution attack. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:36:26 AM Quote Wait what? Salt should be random and per record/account. Anything less doesn't prevent a parallel execution attack. Yeah, that's the best practice. I use a user unique salt for Inputs. For CoinLenders it is one salt. This doesn't matter because you need to get into a Inputs account to get coins from CL anyway. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DeathAndTaxes on July 12, 2013, 08:37:58 AM Quote Wait what? Salt should be random and per record/account. Anything less doesn't prevent a parallel execution attack. Yeah, that's the best practice. I use a user unique salt for Inputs. For CoinLenders it is one salt. This doesn't matter because you need to get into a Inputs account to get coins from CL anyway. So one site has no salt, one site uses a weak static salt and one site does it "right"? That makes sense. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: davout on July 12, 2013, 08:39:38 AM If you're still using salts in 2013 you're an idiot, no exceptions.
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:41:09 AM So one site has no salt, one site uses a weak static salt and one site does it "right"? That makes sense. I could remove login checks for CoinLenders and nobody will be able to steal a single coin (because you're only able to transfer them to your Inputs account) Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:43:10 AM If you're still using salts in 2013 you're an idiot, no exceptions. My Little Pony Forums needs to implement GPG auth! (We're implementing GPG signing for logging in for inputs too) bitcoin-qt uses a random salt that scales according to host computational power for wallet encryption, FYI. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DeathAndTaxes on July 12, 2013, 08:44:19 AM If you're still using salts in 2013 you're an idiot, no exceptions. Care to clarify? The purpose of salt is to prevent pre-execution attack (i.e. rainbow tables). There is absolutely no reason not to salt passwords as in no possible way would it reduce security. It limits the attacker to one attempt on one account per operation which can never be slower without salt. Furthermore many key derivitive functions like bcrypt have integrated support for generating and storing salt. It no requires no additional work. I take it bitcoin-central doesn't salt passwords to protects users? Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DeathAndTaxes on July 12, 2013, 08:45:45 AM So one site has no salt, one site uses a weak static salt and one site does it "right"? That makes sense. I could remove login checks for CoinLenders and nobody will be able to steal a single coin (because you're only able to transfer them to your Inputs account) It was more a "why", why make it more insecure than necessary? Proper password security also protects your users if the site is compromised and users (being users) ended up using the same password on multiple sites, possibly even your other sites. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: escrow.ms on July 12, 2013, 08:46:10 AM If you're still using salts in 2013 you're an idiot, no exceptions. Care to clarify? The purpose of salt is to prevent pre-execution attack (i.e. rainbow tables). There is absolutely no reason not to salt passwords as in no possible way would it reduce security. It limits the attacker to one attempt on one account per operation which can never be slower without salt. Furthermore many key derivitive functions like bcrypt have integrated support for generating and storing salt. It no requires no additional work. I take it bitcoin-central doesn't salt passwords to protects users? I think he's talking about static ie single salt. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 08:55:49 AM It was more a "why", why make it more insecure than necessary? Proper password security also protects your users if the site is compromised and users (being users) ended up using the same password on multiple sites, possibly even your other sites. Took a while but CoinLenders now hashes passwords 3 times (for legacy reasons), including once with a user specific randomly generated salt collected from environmental noise (/dev/urandom, I'm using the non blocking version for now because /dev/random is impractical as a quick update for thousands of users). Still a mostly pointless change as (i) we tell users to not reuse passwords in large font, but yes some users don't listen and (ii) Inputs.io is required. Difference this will make in practice due to CoinLender's Inputs.io requirement: close to zero Difference this makes to forum posters: ?? Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: gweedo on July 12, 2013, 08:57:01 AM Lets just bring this back on topic, cause we have gone off topic for a bit. TradeFortress now has 2 bad practices on his sites. Sounds like he just experimented learned as he went, and never updated his previous sites. Which we all can be guilty of and as soon as he proves that is fix, which isn't too much work. I will gladly remove all my post and threads.
I will how ever not be extorted and forced to do anything. I don't care if he tries and hack my paper wallets LMAO joke. But seriously extortion and trust system abuse isn't the route he should be taking. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 09:00:23 AM gweedo: you have multiple security vulnerabilities on your sites like BitcoinLister.
I've already admitted that some of my sites weren't best practices, but that does not matter in the slightest when talking about Bitcoins because Inputs.io. And CoinLenders now uses a user specific salt generated from /dev/urandom. No, I am not posting my entire source code or database. Now the only thing remaining is coinchat. I'd love for you to bitch more about how a pet project chatroom doesn't use best practices, especially when it uses Inputs.io and has an effect of about nil! (Keep in mind that this forum does not use a user specific salt.) Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: favdesu on July 12, 2013, 09:06:56 AM tbh, I can't see any problems, as long as inputs is safe, since it's acting as the master account.
only issues are bad jurisdiction and doxing by the hopefully only one person with access to the db. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 09:08:47 AM I'm not talking about bitcoins. I'm talking about web security basics / best practices, which you violated many times for BitcoinLister. Including things like your architecture and code layouts. Every developer does that for hacky / pet projects really.
Aren't you arguing over a CHATROOM? Instead of Bitcoins (ie Inputs.io)? Also, soon, the next time users sign into CoinLenders, they will be hashed and salted with data from /dev/random (so it's guaranteed to be all from environmental noise instead of some from PRNGs). I'm not doing this right now because it's impractical to get long salts for thousands of users from a blocking source. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: davout on July 12, 2013, 09:09:15 AM My Little Pony Forums needs to implement GPG auth! (We're implementing GPG signing for logging in for inputs too) Using a salt to protect a password from being looked up in rainbow tables is useless. bitcoin-qt uses a random salt that scales according to host computational power for wallet encryption, FYI. Just because bitcoin-qt does something doesn't make it correct. Care to clarify? The purpose of salt is to prevent pre-execution attack (i.e. rainbow tables). Yes, thing is, that's not really how passwords are cracked nowadays.I strongly encourage you to read this (https://community.qualys.com/blogs/securitylabs/2012/06/08/lessons-learned-from-cracking-2-million-linkedin-passwords) and this (http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/05/how-crackers-make-minced-meat-out-of-your-passwords/), you'll see how it actually happens. There is absolutely no reason not to salt passwords as in no possible way would it reduce security. Usually when you do something thinking "it can't hurt" it means that you don't really understand what you're doing.Furthermore many key derivitive functions like bcrypt have integrated support for generating and storing salt. It no requires no additional work. Yup, and that's precisely why the "should we use salts" question is completely outdated, you don't hash, use salts or whatever, you do the right thing, you use bcrypt.I take it bitcoin-central doesn't salt passwords to protects users? We actually switched to bcrypt (https://github.com/davout/bitcoin-central/commit/bfb5c3ad4f2d742d7c52fafb52de4ed9b0bb380f) before you even registered on bitcointalk.Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: gweedo on July 12, 2013, 09:10:58 AM I'm not talking about bitcoins. I'm talking about web security basics / best practices, which you violated many times for BitcoinLister. Including things like your architecture and code layouts. Every developer does that for hacky / pet projects really. Aren't you arguing over a CHATROOM? Instead of Bitcoins (ie Inputs.io)? Also, soon, the next time users sign into CoinLenders, they will be hashed and salted with data from /dev/random (so it's guaranteed to be all from environmental noise instead of some from PRNGs). I'm not doing this right now because it's impractical to get long salts for thousands of users from a blocking source. When did inputs.io become Bitcoins? So you claiming that inputs.io is now bitcoin? Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 09:14:15 AM Inputs used bcrypt since the start, we've been looking into & implementing alternative security like GPG or password derivatives for signing transactions too.
Quote Just because bitcoin-qt does something doesn't make it correct. Most, if not a figure very close to 100% of software in the world does not use absolute best practices. People should be demanding absolute best practices for sites handling money like storing Bitcoins for example, and that's a valid point - but like I said before, Inputs.io uses bcrypt and that is the ONLY site that stores bitcoins. Demanding that for a web chatroom not recommended to be used for sensitive communications isn't what you should be wasting your time with. If you compromise someone's coinchat or coinlenders account - cool. Now withdraw to Inputs.io and try to compromise that! Quote When did inputs.io become Bitcoins? So you claiming that inputs.io is now bitcoin? No, just that it actually handles Bitcoins. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 09:22:34 AM LOL so gweedo still wants the database of coinlenders. Dream on buddy.
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 09:37:41 AM Quote Dude all you do is screw over your users and abuse your powers Yes, I screwed over a hacker / phisher / script kiddie / DoSer. Was he your friend? Also, you're. Try digesting messages before rushing to post! I'm happy to post a SQL dump of users.password, which are hashed and salted with a user unique salt. That proves nothing through, if it was not indistinguishable from randomness then it was done wrong. No, you're not getting SSH / mysql / whatever access. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: vokain on July 12, 2013, 11:15:17 AM Quote Dude all you do is screw over your users and abuse your powers Yes, I screwed over a hacker / phisher / script kiddie / DoSer. Was he your friend? Also, you're. Try digesting messages before rushing to post! I'm happy to post a SQL dump of users.password, which are hashed and salted with a user unique salt. That proves nothing through, if it was not indistinguishable from randomness then it was done wrong. No, you're not getting SSH / mysql / whatever access. ooooh, in your quoted excerpt he actually used the possessive pronoun "your" correctly. a bit quick to flame back, eh Seņor Grammar Nazi? :D Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 12:54:34 PM Quote Dude all you do is screw over your users and abuse your powers Yes, I screwed over a hacker / phisher / script kiddie / DoSer. Was he your friend? Also, you're. Try digesting messages before rushing to post! I'm happy to post a SQL dump of users.password, which are hashed and salted with a user unique salt. That proves nothing through, if it was not indistinguishable from randomness then it was done wrong. No, you're not getting SSH / mysql / whatever access. ooooh, in your quoted excerpt he actually used the possessive pronoun "your" correctly. a bit quick to flame back, eh Seņor Grammar Nazi? :D Lol, my mistake, sorry :D Anyway, gweedo, I'm happy to remove my negative feedback if you stop continue to make misleading and factually incorrect statements regarding my websites. You don't need to remove anything, that's extortion. I made it clear my negative feedback was because you continued to lie and spread FUD. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: scotaloo on July 12, 2013, 01:33:58 PM Quote Dude all you do is screw over your users and abuse your powers Yes, I screwed over a hacker / phisher / script kiddie / DoSer. Was he your friend? Also, you're. Try digesting messages before rushing to post! I'm happy to post a SQL dump of users.password, which are hashed and salted with a user unique salt. That proves nothing through, if it was not indistinguishable from randomness then it was done wrong. No, you're not getting SSH / mysql / whatever access. Friends with Gweedo? grasping at straws there lol! nah bro I don't even know him in fact I'm not sure if he is even a he, I always thought it was a she for some reason, now I'm confused. EDIT: for clarification, gweedo lent an alt of mine money on btcjam before and I paid him back, thats the only other contact I've ever had with him, try and find out who it was gweedo! DoSer? your the one who threatened to DoS me lol! provide proof I DoSed anyone, I don't have a botnet. You've locked down your sites really good on the SQL injection side of things props for that, the rest however if laughably insecure, you clearly nothing about server administration/security but know a bit about web development is all. You remind me of a guy I met recently, he was an NVC developer and earned $200k working for a multi-national, he didn't know what a password hash was, he found the whole thing extremely alien when I explained it to him, he didn't know what ssh was, plus a lot of other things, and he was a web developer earning serious bucks with a very important job with years and years of experience, your just like him, your not capable of running a site on your own you should be a development contractor, and clearly you have no partners either because I don't believe anyone would let you do crazy shit like this. I have no idea what is wrong with you, maybe its an ego thing, but people need to read this thread and see what you are really like. Also you should provide that SQL dump, you'll know if its secure if your users don't get hacked after you post it (providing you actually post the real thing and not fake it which you likely will). You fix that coinchat bug I told you about yet? how about the coinchat vulnerability I told you about or the coinlenders one? and the inputs.io bug/screw up (deposit I made never credited)? I still don't see it in my balance. Theymos was nice enough to listen to me and fix the 'issue' I pointed out to him on bitcointalk and even followed through and paid me the bounty, you just said 'oh your a phisher fuck off' didn't pay me for any of the ones I pointed out to you and didn't even fix them in some cases, so there will be no more dislosures when I find bugs/vulns in your sites, I will use them for personal gain. Go and check your logs on coinchat for the "hollowinfinity" episode, where that account was hacked multiple times, you'll noticed I used a fuckload of vulnerabilities on your site that day, I'm never going to disclose them to you and your to incompetent to find them. And post the chatlog here from that 'episode' too so people can see how secure your shit really is. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: scotaloo on July 12, 2013, 02:21:03 PM Also, the only other person who ignored a vuln disclosure by me since I've came here in 2010 was davout, that worked out well for him didn't it, look at davout for the future of TradeFortress co.
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: davout on July 12, 2013, 02:40:40 PM Also, the only other person who ignored a vuln disclosure by me since I've came here in 2010 was davout, that worked out well for him didn't it, look at davout for the future of TradeFortress co. Lolwut? Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DeathAndTaxes on July 12, 2013, 02:46:55 PM Quote Care to clarify? The purpose of salt is to prevent pre-execution attack (i.e. rainbow tables). Yes, thing is, that's not really how passwords are cracked nowadays.Yeah rainbow tables can't be used BECAUSE sites employ the use of strong random salt. If you passwords aren't salted then you are vulnerable to this much faster form of precomputation attack. Quote I strongly encourage you to read this (https://community.qualys.com/blogs/securitylabs/2012/06/08/lessons-learned-from-cracking-2-million-linkedin-passwords) and this (http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/05/how-crackers-make-minced-meat-out-of-your-passwords/), you'll see how it actually happens. Nothing in there about not salting passwords. Quote The fact that the file of hashed passwords was not salted helps a lot. As an aside, even if they were salted, you could concentrate the cracking session to crack the easiest passwords first using the "single" mode of John the Ripper. Nobody said salt = "magic solve all your security problems" bullet. However properly employing salt does make the job of the attacker harder. They can't precompute, they can't use rainbow tables, they can't check all entries in password table simultaneously. If your passwords is weak or known they can still break it but they have to do it the hard way. One hash at a time with no speed ups. Quote Furthermore many key derivitive functions like bcrypt have integrated support for generating and storing salt. It no requires no additional work. Yup, and that's precisely why the "should we use salts" question is completely outdated, you don't hash, use salts or whatever, you do the right thing, you use bcrypt.Um bcrypt is a salted hash. Are you dense? If you're still using salts in 2013 you're an idiot, no exceptions. We actually switched to bcrypt before you even registered on bitcointalk. Thank you by your logic you are "an idiot, no exceptions". Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: CIYAM on July 12, 2013, 02:56:49 PM Thank you by your logic you are "an idiot, no exceptions". I can't see "davout's" posts as he is the only member of this forum that I have ignored but I think you have quite likely nailed it on the head (especially when you consider what happened to his own website). Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DiamondCardz on July 12, 2013, 04:09:14 PM So now we have FUD from both TF and gweedo.
Oh, for fuck sake, guys. Trying to paint each other red, there is always some kind of drama on this forum. This fucking FUD does not improve your reputation, it just makes you look like a dick. @gweedo: I would trust TF with my bank account details, I'm 99% sure that he will never scam or access passwords for malicious use. Especially as people do have his personal info. He also DOES hash and salt his passwords, he doesn't need to give you his source code. Hell, I wouldn't give someone source code of something I made because they're having a hissy fit over security. You don't trust it? Don't use it. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DiamondCardz on July 12, 2013, 04:48:58 PM So now we have FUD from both TF and gweedo. Oh, for fuck sake, guys. Trying to paint each other red, there is always some kind of drama on this forum. This fucking FUD does not improve your reputation, it just makes you look like a dick. @gweedo: I would trust TF with my bank account details, I'm 99% sure that he will never scam or access passwords for malicious use. Especially as people do have his personal info. He also DOES hash and salt his passwords, he doesn't need to give you his source code. Hell, I wouldn't give someone source code of something I made because they're having a hissy fit over security. You don't trust it? Don't use it. So trying to help new users or protect users that may not be super into tech is now shown as being a "dick" and FUD. Yeah I guess I just shouldn't help those people anymore. The only remotely bad thing was that he posted the hash of a password, and that password being find-able via Google search. So yeah, FUD. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on July 12, 2013, 04:52:26 PM gweedo: the issue is with you spreading FUD. The only site not salted is CoinChat but despite multiple denials you somehow assume it is for all my other sites, which is the FUD and lies part.
That's what is reasonable but obviously people will ho "a chat room just hashes? Everything is properly done for sites that actually handle money?" But I guess that reaction wasn't what you are looking for. If you do not get this part, you're dense or you are just here to pick a fight. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: CIYAM on July 12, 2013, 04:56:15 PM I think that if gweedo only has *proof* of the one site not having secure passwords then the title of this topic should be changed (otherwise it really is FUD). To say you "suspect all other sites" run by the same person have the same problem is really a bit of a stretch if you have no proof.
Apart from that guys I think that this topic is doing *nothing* for the benefit of the Bitcoin community (although I am sure many are enjoying the *drama* of it all). Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DiamondCardz on July 12, 2013, 04:57:00 PM I think you should read this, gweedo. You might find it interesting. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt)
Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: CIYAM on July 12, 2013, 05:06:44 PM How is this FUD? So it isn't FUD when he claims that he can hack my site, extorts me to remove bad post, or when he claims I am untrustworthy when I never even did a trade with him? Yet I point out that if one site and alert users has a huge security flaw, which is true from his own words by the screenshot, that is FUD. Cause that makes so much sense. Hmm... can you calm down? I do not dispute that you found a problem with one of his websites - and hacking claims were nothing to do with what I mentioned. The problem (as I see it) is that you have said that *all his websites* have the same flaw and you have not proven that (I am pretty sure that he has admitted the problems with the one site). It looks more like there is some sort of bad blood between you guys rather than just some information about security. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: CIYAM on July 12, 2013, 05:22:56 PM Also I have worked in the industry for long enough that when one problem is found, it is found in every project after it. Really that does not make sense as you even admitted that he has "improved through learning" his security management in his projects. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: CIYAM on July 12, 2013, 05:34:53 PM So another site that is 2 different bad security practices spread to two different sites. I can't really be bothered to go through all the previous posts but you did post this (above). Clearly it is not the *same* problem from the same website so your OP does have a problem when it says as much (the problem is not one of facts now but one of attitudes AFAICT). Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: CIYAM on July 12, 2013, 05:39:34 PM That is a completely different thing. That is after DeathAndTaxes brought up the password salt issue, which he claims to fix on one site. If it is a completely different thing then your posting about insecure passwords is just as much a "completely different thing". Where is your proof that the same code is being used on all the websites? Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: Kouye on July 12, 2013, 05:47:19 PM If it is a completely different thing then your posting about insecure passwords is just as much a "completely different thing". Where is your proof that the same code is being used on all the websites? He has no proof. He's been asking for TF to provide him with proof it is not the case, by letting him check the CoinLender database. And since then, they're just trying to see who's the most stubborn. This is really becoming stupid. TF was using static salt on CoinLender, he admitted it, and also admitted this was bad practise. He then claimed it was fixed, and a "per user" random salt was use to rehash all the passwords. I doubt this could be a lie. CoinChat does not use any salt, so is very vulnerable to rainbow attack. So the conclusion of all this is: - Don't use CoinChat - If you do, make SURE you don't use your CoinChat password ANYWHERE else. /thread Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: CIYAM on July 12, 2013, 05:51:24 PM As I stated before 99.9% of programmers use the same template for hashing and salt handling things across all sites. I think the question you should be asking, is why he doesn't prove that this isn't true, I have already shown proof that this could be an issue. Also if it wasn't an issue why is he extorting my ratings to have it removed? Makes you wonder. A statistic that you (once again) pulled out of your arse (or ass if you're an American). He does not need to prove your "accusations" any more than you would need to prove his - whatever he does you will not believe him (and I am pretty sure the same would apply in reverse). You have only proof of one website so you should change the topic to show that. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: CIYAM on July 12, 2013, 05:56:24 PM Obviously you think the way you think and I think the way I think. If my proof that he has bad security, the certainly his actions are not that of a innocent man. If you can prove he has bad security (on any other website than the one he admitted to) then why not just do so? Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: Kouye on July 12, 2013, 06:03:00 PM I have proof, I posted proof. Also how can you even put me in the same category of TF, he has extorted, threaten to hack sites I don't even own anymore, and called me untrustworthy which has no baring. I think for someone that has been called out, he is acting as a guilty party. Yes, you posted proof that CoinChat passwords were hashed without salting. Which was clearly admitted by TF. (Thank you for poiting out this breach, really.) Then discussing further, he admitted the CoinLender passwords were hashed with static salting. Which is apparently fixed. Input passwords are hashed using a user-specific salt. So my conclusion still stands. Just keep away from CoinChat. TF should undo the neg-rep he painted you with, which was a really childish move (I sometimes wonder if TF isn't actually Inaba), and you should keep on warning people not to use CoinChat. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: CIYAM on July 12, 2013, 06:08:25 PM Instead he attacked me then actually just disproving me. You made it impossible for him to do so - if you (and him) could let your egos go for a second you'd realise that this helps Bitcoin not at all. I don't really care for the silly argument but would hope you guys both remember that Bitcoin is more important than any of us. :) Title: Re: Coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: Kouye on July 12, 2013, 06:23:20 PM Fine I have updated the thread to reflect more of what the community is thinking. I still don't agree but I guess facts are facts. EDIT : Thanks for that. Now I back your thread title 70%, since SHA-256 is pretty secure. I didn't double check my google search on the scotaloo password hash and got carried on by the title matching the MD5 hash (http://md5.znaet.org/md5/6eea9b7ef19179a06954edd0f6c05ceb), sorry TF. Title: Re: CoinLenders, input.io and coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: theymos on July 12, 2013, 06:46:04 PM (Keep in mind that this forum does not use a user specific salt.) Yes, it does. Even unimportant sites should use a reasonably strong password-hashing scheme IMO. People often use the same password for many sites, so a security breach on even an unimportant site can hurt a lot of people. Title: Re: Coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DeathAndTaxes on July 12, 2013, 07:16:51 PM Fine I have updated the thread to reflect more of what the community is thinking. I still don't agree but I guess facts are facts. Thanks for that. Now I back your thread title 100%, since MD5 isn't the strongest hash, indeed. Error by quoted user. Site reportedly uses SHA-2. Title: Re: Coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DiamondCardz on July 12, 2013, 07:19:42 PM Fine I have updated the thread to reflect more of what the community is thinking. I still don't agree but I guess facts are facts. Thanks for that. Now I back your thread title 100%, since MD5 isn't the strongest hash, indeed. Lmao, MD5. Title: Re: Coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: Kouye on July 12, 2013, 07:21:10 PM My bad, it SHA-256, which isn't that weak... Will edit and make amend. ;D
Title: Re: Coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: DeathAndTaxes on July 12, 2013, 07:54:50 PM Even unimportant sites should use a reasonably strong password-hashing scheme IMO. People often use the same password for many sites, so a security breach on even an unimportant site can hurt a lot of people. This. Sadly password reuse is a problem and sites shouldn't pretend it isn't. Also humans generally have a problem coming up with high entropy passwords. If someone used a particular password even once the odds are someone else on the planet also used it. Without salt precomputation against known/compromised passwords becomes trivially easy. At a minimum: a) modern cryptographically secure hashing algorithm with no known preimage attacks (second generation RIPEMD, SHA-2, SHA-3, bcrypt*, Scrypt, Whirlpool, etc)*. b) 64 bit or greater salt.** c) hash length of at least 128 bits d) enforce minimum 8 digit password length *** An even stronger solution is: a) use a key derivative function designs to slow down brute force attacks (key stretching). Examples include bcrypt, scrypt, and PBKDF2 **** b) enforce minimum password length 8 digits is acceptable for higher security applications adding even a single digit (9 digits) can provide significant security *** c) check users password against lists of known compromised passwords and reject. For example using bcrypt, requiring a min of 9 characters and ensuring the password isn't on any compromised password dictionary list makes the probability of brute forcing the password negligible even using botnets, cloud computing, or dedicated (non-existent) ASICs. It is also likely to remain negigible even considering the advancements in computing power over the next couple decades. For a more exotic solution which provides the site plausible deniability and puts all the security requirements on the user one could use public key signing (Bitcoin address or PGP) as a method of authenticating (logging on) users. For those who want an appeal to authority this is what NIST recommends as a minimum: a) Key Derivative Function: PBKDF2 key using SHA-2 (SHA-3 maybe? but not at the time of this doc) b) Min salt length: 128 bits c) Min digest (hash) size: 112 bit d) Min number of iterations: 1,000 for time sensitive applications (for high security situations that are not time sensitive a much higher iteration count based on available computing power should be used potentially up to 1,000,000 iterations) e) Min password length: 10 digits for passwords which should consist of mixed symbols, numbers, upper case, lower case (i.e. "D&Twtf?123") f) Min passphrase length: 30 digits which can be case insensitive alphabetical only (i.e. "my name is death and taxes and death and taxes is my name") Understand NIST is a US government agency so their exclusion of an algorithm doesn't mean the algorithm is insecure it just means that governments like everything in nice neat packages. Still there is nothing wrong with following NIST requirements, they just are a little restrictive. Reference NIST publication 800-132 (Dec 2010) http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-132/nist-sp800-132.pdf Another potential source for "how to do it right" is the Bitcoin wallet source code. The Bitcoin wallet doesn't store passwords but it does derive the encryption key from the user supplied password. It uses PBKDF2 using SHA-2, 256 bit key, tens of thousands of iterations (exact # depends on computing power of wallet). Notes: * The entire MD series of cryptographic hashes and SHA-0 are horrible insecure at this point and no new system should even consider them. Legacy systems should have implemented hashing algorithm upgrades roughly a decade ago. SHA-1 is cryptographically weakened but faster than brute force preimage attacks against the hash are likely more expensive than brute forcing the passphrase in all but the strongest passwords. Still given the number of secure alternatives no new project should deploy SHA-1 at this point. ** NIST recommends 128 bit although that likely is future proofing. As long as salt is reasonably random and used on a per user basis even 32 bit salt will prevent the attacker from performing any precomputation or parallel attacks. *** One problem with SHA-2 and similar algorithms is that they are designed to be very fast. A single high end GPU can perform a billion hashes a second (remember in Bitcoin "1 GH/s" is 2 billion SHA-256 hashes). This is useful in some applications like HMAC where you need to sign every packet individually as this may mean millions (or potentially hundreds of millions) of packets a second. On the other hand this speed works against password security. Unless your website needs to login millions of users per second, every second until the end of time that high speed offers no advantage but it does offer the attacker to attempt a massive number of potential passwords each second. Strong key derivative functions provide a mechanism for increasing the amount of computing resources necessary to complete a single hash. If you make a hash take 1000x as long it has a negigible impact on a webserver but it cuts the throughput of an attacker by 1000x. Imagine an attacker with a given set of resources could break a particular passphrase in 9 hours, 1000x is one year. Title: Re: Coinchat doesn't salt or use a strong hash algo Post by: whiskers75 on July 13, 2013, 03:07:05 PM This thread.... *sigh* :P
In my opinion: gweedo isn't actually listening to what TF is saying. (Side note: what CoinChat does need to do is unban me from it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252961.0) :D) |
