Bitcoin Forum

Theres 7.5 billion people in the world. That number will grow. There's only 21 million BTC. Sure it can be broken down to infinite numbers of decimal points and yada yada but with 17 million already mined and accounted for, is it reasonable to expect the 7.425 billion people who haven't adopted bitcoin yet to accept the current inflation of the coin??

$2 per coin in 2012
$16000 per coin in 2017


That's 8000% increase based on what exactly? Theres mining costs of course. But is that a storage of value? Or a loss of value? Think about what is really happening as coins are mined. Fiat currency is exchanged for equipment to create digital currency. The digital currency is then sold for fiat currency. The equipment expires and the digital currency becomes, theoretically, more and more difficult as well as expensive to create. Bitcoin is destroying value rather than creating value.

Approximately 1% of the world has adopted bitcoin. This has artificially skyrocketed prices to an unsustainable rate of 8000% in 5 years. If the 7.425 billion people who still use fiat currency agree to use bitcoin, there's no way they will agree to deflate their own purchasing power by 8000%. I think the current price of bitcoin is impractical for mainstream adoption.

I think a niche group (first 1% of population) who see the vision and the future of crypto have artificially driven this price up so high that it isn't likely the remaining population of the world will buy into it (at the current levels). Sure crypto could be the future of our money system. But the current prices do not seem realistic if we are trying to get the entire world in on it. I don't think crypto needs universal adoption to be successful, but it certainly needs more users and use in general than it has now. As it stands now, bitcoin and altcoins are more of an investment tool and less of an actual currency.


Do you think the current price of bitcoin is practical?

Is the price practical? Why or why not

The majority of those that own BTC live in the 3rd world.  The current price makes it impractical to the point that it might as well be impossible for them to actually spend it since the fees and transaction times are obscene.  It's like I posted in much greater detail in another thread...if BTC has any chance of survival, it must be made practical to the masses in 3rd world nations that believe in it with religious conviction.  Most of the posters on this forum should be proof enough of that statement.  If the poor are ignored in this case, BTC is already dead...it's just an AIDS patient receiving daily blood transfusions and large amounts of dopamine and forgets its reality completely due to the euphoric high that never ends...until  the end.

What is "Practical" anymore, anyway?

For those living paycheck to paycheck, cash is still king since it isn't around long enough (no savings) to be affected by inflation.

I think it is but im sure that the 1% of those investors are just rich businessmen wanting to earn more. It's hard to imagine people in low classes would take time to that investment. The price is growing up not because of the more users are going in to it but the more income you get the more upgrade you will do to your mining system. Any users you are not mining might not be even considered in 1% because they are a product of a mined bitcoin or altcoin.

Why do you believe that the majority of Bitcoin holders are from 3rd world countries?

These forums should be evidence enough of that.  Most people posting here don't own even 0.2 BTC...not even close.

That plus the majority of the human population lives under 3rd world standards.  Extrapolate from there.

I can somewhat agree to your way of thinking
I am more comfortable if the price did not went up to $5000. I think that it was more pratical for any type of business having that price. Unlike now in which we can't even pay a box of pizza using bitcoin without paying the fee more than the price of our pizza

Hm... That's an interesting point. But on the otherside, who will tell you how much bitcoin they have? Even online. But actually, it would be interesting to have spome kind of demographic about Bitcoin users.

I think bitcoin price can go way further. It's designed to rise exponentially and adoption is currently growing exponentially. It's completely mad. It's free money. And it's really happening. I was against bitcoin but accepting to bought it for a lot more than it was when I first hear about it changed my mind and I am still buying when there is a dip. Actually I will now put a bit of my savings every month in it because it's so easy to convert them when you use a mobile bank such as revolut.
I have written a bit about the bitcoin price here: https://medium.com/@netcashfx/bitcoin-an-experience-of-hyperdeflation-5f7ac369b721

Like right above...darlus123 said "box of pizza"...99% chance he or she is from the Philippines.

I know from first hand experience since I know many people that make maybe $100 per month doing bounties.  They get their entire families and villages involved.  They tell everyone they know about it.  Lots of students and stay at home parents or relatives with nothing better to do...and that is a LOT of people.

Practical here what do you mean? And for the problem of 7,425 billion people, there is no compulsion to invest and use Bitcoin / Altcoins. And as long as there is FIAT Currency, I think there is no problem even if 7 billion people do not use Bitcoin. Because basically Bitcoin is just an Alternative, of the many methods of payment and currency.

That's where other cryptocurrencies should come in play. Something else, what can be used as a transaction unit, rather than a value storage.

Your reasoning doesn't seem to make sense. You talk about artificially skyrocketing the price and asking what 7500% increase is based on. It's based on pure supply and demand. Nothing more nothing less. How does that make it artificial? It's impossible for it to be artificial because the price is based purely on market demand, which means the price is always exactly where it should be because there are no artificial influences that can affect it.

And how exactly are you getting the idea that buying bitcoin deflates your purchasing power? Purchasing power is deflated by inflationary currencies. Bitcoin is deflationary which means the opposite of what you are saying - as more people buy they will get more purchasing power. People will buy it at these prices and at ten times these prices precisely because unlike fiat currency, Bitcoin doesn't deflate your purchasing power, in fact it increases your purchasing power.

I think the OP is speaking in market terms here.  The word "artificial" is referring to how there are little or no underlying fundamental reasons why the price has increased so fast.  There is little or no news that drives prices...and what little news that may or may not drive prices...people only speculate or correlate the volatility that may or may not follow it.  It's like Jamie Dimon condemning BTC and the price goes down...but then the grand poobah of Vanguard (much more influential and credible) does the same and the result is ATH.  So the news probably isn't the driver here.  Also what drives the price is greed and the same things that drove crazes in the past.  These are considered "artificial" motivators by markets since they are unpredictable.

As far as reduced purchasing power it's all about fees, transaction times, and places where BTC is accepted.  The fees alone make purchases impractical for most users...so they just HODL and cling to hope of a miracle in the future.  If no one is spending their coins, that is a net decrease in economic purchasing power with respect to volume and the amount of tangible goods trading hands.

Yes, i think price of bitcon is practical because bitcoin is first vurtual currency and many people's have curiosity about its nature future of it. So people started mining, investing and transactions of it.
Also as it is decentralised, open to all so people all over the world started investing in it, and hence price goes high and high.

Yes,most of holders are from such countries.They struggle for money and they mostly find bitcoin as a safe haven and they show much interest in holding bitcoins.For people of developed countries,bitcoin is just another additional income.For most people of 3rd world countries,its their only source of income.

I think there are so many other coin and technologies that have been invented because bitcoin paved the way, that if the price gets too high for it to be practical then, one of the other coins will fill the demand in that area of the market. Having said that, even if the price of Bitcoin is really high, it can still be broken down into smaller fractions for the smaller transactions.

Bitcoin has the first mover advantage which is always BIG for a new technology.
Price-wise since this is the first and well-known cryptocurrency and only 1% of the population is in to crypto, the price is justifiable.

I recall last year when Bitcoin was around $300-400. I said it was too high and didn't take it seriously.  :'( :'( :'(

You should always take your investments seriously Zero1One0  ;)

So only new news is allowed to increase the of Bitcoin? Doesn't seem to be a very good definition of "real" gains and "artificial" gains. Besides there were three main pieces of news this week. The main one was that CBOE is starting futures on Monday, whereas before they had said they would start first quarter 2018. Also LN got tested for first time ever today, and Square expanded its Bitcoin integration to more users. The latter two are both big pieces of news. But the first one is more the driver of the price surge, because I think its pretty obvious the price surge is due to a combination of people wanting to get in before Wall St gets in and also Wall St starting to get in before futures start. That's a pretty solid reason for the price to rise.

Fees, transactions times, and places where BTC is accepted have nothing to do with purchasing power. Purchasing power has to do with the value of the asset against the standard currency. Bitcoin increases in value against fiat currency as more people buy it. Period. There's no other possible definition of purchasing power.

1,000 people own 40% of the market, and developing countries was roughly 30% of total sign-ups before the parabolic climb; they are a market segment, they are far from the majority though.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-08/the-bitcoin-whales-1-000-people-who-own-40-percent-of-the-market
https://www.bitwala.com/bitcoin-developing-countries/

That seems high, but if that's true, there's your answer.
1% of the world is A LOT, it's normal that it's now worth so much more than the few cents when only 100 people cared about it.

That's why investing in bitcoin is always the right timing and always put you in a win-win situation. Bitcoin's price has not reached its ceiling price yet, that's what i believe so even if you invest in bitcoin today at a very expensive price, you can always be sure that you will earn profit, that is, if you only believe.

I didn't say that it was good...but there aren't many alternative explanations out there.  You're right...it's common for something to pump days away from a big event and then dump right before the event happens...exactly like we are seeing right now with the CME opening in a few hours.  LN isn't newsworthy yet.  It's still very beta and probably priced in by the very few that know about it.  I can't comment on Square but that's probably priced in as well.  Keep in mind that most of the current value of BTC isn't driven by LN or Square...since most of the new money probably has no idea about the scalability problems either.  They are mostly greedy bastards chasing a parabola like they do in the stock market or have done for a century.  As I said above, people are going to want to get out before the futures begin.  That's what we are seeing now and it's typical of people who trade on technicals.

Of course they have everything to do with purchasing power.  If I have $10 of BTC and I want to eat at McDonalds, I can only pay for myself after fees are figured in.  If I have $10 cash, I can pay for myself and someone else.  We're talking about the here and now....we're not talking about the far future since very few in this world save cash as it is.  Discussing BTC in the future tense is moot anyway since no one knows how long it will be around.  Either way unless you can come up with a proof that absolves me of paying fees to EAT or DRINK (not much else matters to life) I think you might be better served to rethink the bigger picture here and the problems BTC is facing with respect to the average person and its original intended purpose as a currency.

In the 3rd world they don't formally sign up...they just get BTC in trickles online.  But there are huge numbers that cannot easily be accounted for using formal metrics, exchanges, etc.

Just wanted to point out here that in terms of purchasing power ShortCoins said BTC had lost 7500% purchasing power, which obviously is the exact opposite of the truth. I was pointing that out. That has nothing to do with fees, he was just simply deriving the exact opposite conclusion of what the facts have actually been and I was explaining that.

As far as fees go, nobody is using Bitcoin to buy $10 of something because yes this year the fees have become too high for that. You don't want to talk about the future when it will be absolutely possible to spend $10 on something or even 10 cents on something, ok fine then we also won't bother talking about the types of purchases that nobody is doing right now. Also note that even though you don't want to talk about the future, the entire adoption of the technology is of course based around its future implications and uses, and of course also the idea of losing or gaining purchasing power implies a change in the future, so you can't really talk about these things without including a change in time. So you might want to rethink how you think about purchasing power and Bitcoin to make it more relevant to the discussions of the technology at hand. Anyways, people are however buying real estate and cars and other big items with Bitcoin and paying a $5 fee or something like that is far cheaper than buying those things with standard ways like credit cards or bank transfers.


And I don't think we're seeing people getting out before futures. What we just saw was a lot of people getting IN before futures, and then a very expected correction that happens after every big quick rise, regardless of the reason for the rise. Futures should be very positive for bitcoin in the long term because it leads to Wall St buying Bitcoin eventually and even if futures people tend to short more than go long, they can either not try to manipulate the market for their shorts in which case they are just gonna lose a ton of money, or they can buy into bitcoin in order to try to direct at least a little bit of market manipulation but by that very act of having to buy in they also drive the price higher, and anytime they want to short they have to drive the price higher, meanwhile the price going higher means a lot of new money outside of Wall St continues to roll in, meaning even if they can occasionally manipulate the price downwards they will be buying in higher and higher as demand among the public naturally continues to rise.

Ok I missed the part about purchasing power in his context....l'm human for now :P  I do not believe for one second that BTC or any independent crypto will replace all global fiat.  Governments would chip all of us and go cashless before they allowed independent money anyway.  So fair enough on that point.

On the point that I don't want to discuss the future of fees is because all we have is speculation at this point about the LN that may or may not make a dent...if BTC can hold off its competitors in the timeframe to make something like that viable.  This is the most important issue on the table.  I have my doubts about a resolution since they've had 8 years to avoid what is happening right now and, even though I don't believe that prices will go to $50K per coin what will fees be like then for anything other than very large purchases?  All that matters is that, if the transaction times and fees that 99% of users deal in aren't solved by then, even the most braindead of the noobs will know that BTC is dead in the water and LN will be for nothing.  Everyone will have moved on to other cryptos long before said rollout of LN assuming it works.  The "relative" purchasing power for that 99% will only get worse/increasingly impractical unless they buy big ticket items.  There's too much volatility for that anyway and I don't really believe those big ticket stories.  No one likes surprises between the time that the deal is made and the contract is signed and notarized to the tune of what most earn in a year.  In this it's hard to rethink a system that is not working in the way that it was promised and can only get much worse before it has even a glimmer of hope at getting better.  All it makes me think about is how much more attractive alt-coins look with each passing day, and most people I talk to say the same thing.

With respect to futures it's very simple.  There's really no reason to go long.  Futures are supposed to be a hedge.  Therefore whenever there is a new high or a price run-up, the futures market will short.  There's really nowhere else for it to go assuming that most of those doing the shorting are doing so to lock in profits on the actual coins that they hold.  If the price runs up and the exchanges become inaccessible like they always do lately, there is no better insurance than being able to short to protect that new ATH of $20K should it actually go up that much per coin.  Before futures were available, the price could hit a high and by the time someone could sell the price might have fallen $1-2K per coin.  Not anymore.  The futures markets might actually function in the way that they were intended to function for the first time in decades...to protect profits.  Again, I see no reason to go long futures or options if I need to pay interest when I can just buy the actual coins.  So I see your point but I don't exactly agree with the logic in a real world cause and effect scenario with respect to long positions.  If anything, banks will just come in and do the same to BTC long positions as they do to gold and silver longs.

Practical in what sense ?
If you are pertaining to prices, It's always adjusted based on its adoption.
Like before. One Bitcoin has a value of less than a thousand dollars. And value keeps on increasing and relevant equivalent in bitcoin is being distributed.

As prices go up, it's possible that payment in bitcoin may be per satoshis in the future. And the twety one million bitcoin will soon be More than enough to coming massive adoption.
There is no need to worry about bitcoin not fitting the whole population.

Yes cause the bitcoin now is trending in our country.

is The Current Price Of Bitcoin Practical?
More than practically because of the high cost of today many would be obsessed with achieving a BTC
scammer and hackers are increasing due to the value of btc
may not submit to the world of bitcoin and be more practical
think well to be all right

I feel you. I actually know Bitcoin 8-7 years ago since a husband of a friend mines it but we didn't take it seriously. After 6 years we've met again and they were able to have a beach wedding, all expense paid because of Bitcoin. Then last year when its price was like $800 per BTC, I still didn't take it seriously. But look at it now, I was telling myself earlier that if only I got 1 BTC I'd probably have my own house now or a car. I really regret it but we need to move on as it is not too late yet. We might not be able to buy 1 BTC in an instant but we can buy a certain fraction everytime we have extra funds and wait for it to grow.

The Practical part is not the price, but rather the use case. If people can transfer millions from one country to the next and pay

+/- $5 for the transaction, no matter what amount is send, then that is practical and economical. People are currently using

EXPENSIVE Remittance services to do this and Bitcoin is more Practical.  ;)

if in say practical this is very practical because the current price is very extraordinary from the year 2012 is only 2 $ and bitcoin can be brought anywhere just be practical and it does not take a long time and not complicated to exchange our currency and I am sure in the future of many people who use bitcoin services in banks that are many rules

Can we have people who actually understand the question, answer it

Given that bitcoin has risen in price by 5,000,000 times since only April 2010, Is the current price practical? It went from $0.003 per BTC to now over $16,000 USD per coin. The whales and miners control 90% of the coins. Is it really practical to expect the price not to crash?

IF we have the same hnderstanding of practical then it might be safe to say that practicality is not applicable to the price of bitcoin today. HOwever it is predicted that with the markets ganing and thatwe have a lot of factors affecting that cryptocurrencies price is precedented

Different use case decide whether it's practical or not then, it's really true that no matter how much money you send, if the transaction size stays the same, the fee will also stays the same.
kinda benefits a lot for those who sending money in big amount or maybe millions of dollar, it won't be eaten up by fee like other remittance services, but for those with kinda low amount of trnsaction value.
too much suffering due too high fee. the fee could eat up to 3/4 of their money.

When ir comes to practicality, well, I think its market value at this moment, is not practical. Its market value now is indeed expensive. It would be a better idea to wait for its value to fall and that would be the perfect and practical time to invest in Bitcoin to earn huge profit.

What exactly does "practical" mean in this context? Is the current price the product of speculative hype, and could it be overshooting actual adoption rates and realistic utility? Sure. But that's the nature of markets. But every time the bitcoin price has crashed, it has recovered with higher lows and higher highs.

The price measures supply and demand over time, and the trend is clearly telling us that adoption is increasing (among other metrics like Coinbase/Blockchain users and transaction volume). Metcalfe's law says that the value of networks is exponentially proportional to its user base. So if Bitcoin's user base is increasing linearly, we can expect that over time, the price will increase exponentially. Exactly when these cycles occur is anyone's guess.


Any evidence for that statement? Anyway, there is one rule in crypto: There will always be dips/crashes. Be ready to buy them, because it's hard to find volatility this good.

I think the current price point is extremely high. Just in my honest opinion. It might go much higher before it crashes down, but I think the current price is unreasonably high

The problem here is you could have said the same thing at $15,000 and $10,000 and $8000 and $5000 and $3000 and $2000.

Thinking the price is too high just because it has gone up a lot doesn't mean the price is unreasonably high. It's not a company where you can measure the price off of revenue and profits and growth. Bitcoin price is purely a function of how much money is buying vs selling. As long as people continue to believe Bitcoin will at the very least be a great store of value (not even counting its other features like the main one of using to buy things which granted right now has taken a back seat to the purely store of value and wanting to make money part) then the price will continue going up and the price will not be too high. The price essentially reflects people's belief in Bitcoin, it will go up as long as people believe it has value. It is pure like that as compared to stocks that have the ups and downs of companies behind them. Right now more and more people are believing in Bitcoin so the price is exactly where it should be, and given adoption trends this current price will probably be considered incredibly undervalued within months or even weeks.

You've raised some solid supply and demand statistics that look good for any HODLers and will excite any Keynesian; but as far as your question goes, I think the question is "impractical" ;)

The price of bitcoin is constantly moving and for the past however many years it has gone nowhere except upwards and this tells me that the price of bitcoin is indeed not practical, but not in the way you may think. I think the price of bitcoin is impractically low, because I've done some "highly reliable" rag-tag math that would suggest bitcoin could practically reach $365,000 per coin, without being "overvalued". I believe that people will begin buying, selling, trading and worrying about Satoshis a lot more frequently in the future; of course the network will need to be tweaked to realistically have transaction with Satoshi dust, but I do believe that is the direction we're heading in.

I would just expect bitcoins price to continue on it's hard upward trend until it breaks beyond the aforementioned "practical" value of a coin. Obviously we'll have dips and divets along the way, but i'm talking long-term, yearly, sustainable growth.

It depends on your way of living. If you’re willing to use money for bitcoin investment then you can wait it out until you have good returns.

In the current price of Bitcoins, I can say that it is practical if and only if you are the one selling. But, otherwise, the price can't be considered practical.

Is the current price of bitcoin practical? I will say yes because if not that it is practical we the newbies will not know and having grassroot knowledge on Bitcoin. The price is practical because new people will have little understanding on it

Bitcoin valuation is just measured on the demand of it. BTC pricing is the practical untill the demand of buying is there is the market, no matter how high or low the price is.