Bitcoin Forum

I was talking to a friendlenet and his friends' friend who was ramping up home electricity usage for cryptocoin mining and far exceeding the normal usage. The legend says at some point, public officials took a notice in his usage behavior and stormed into his dwelling (ok not actually storming because you'd need warrant but you get the idea :) ) and demanded to stop his mining operation.

Now since I started doing mining I thought to be careful not to go overboard, perhaps shooting for about increase in 20-30% otherwise daily usage. Do you think this range is OK or I can safely go more?

My summer time energy usage is about 200kw per month (severely limiting) and winter time shoots up to 800kw (for that perhaps i can dedicate about 400kw for mining and then reduce my winder wattage to about 600kw by turning off all useless electricity consuming stuff and burning wood.

Thanks.,

BTCBTC

wtf in what country?

USA buddy.

I'm calling BS. Having a high electric bill and using electricty you paid for to mine Crypto is not a crime in the US.

Utility companies are private not public.
you pay for what you use. Why would they care.
If you use more than the internal electrical wiring can handle it will either stop if more A fuse will kick in, or in bad wiring case - wires may get hot and eventually you risk fire.
You can calculate. Just go and check out your fuse for the place. Usually electrical outlets are on  15A which can be loaded constantly around 80%, which would be roughly 1440 watts. That assumes nothing else is connected on the same fuse. Sometimes 1 fuse can be for two rooms, etc.
Assuming residential use and 120volts

I think there is something else to the story which your friend is not telling you.

ok i ll have to dig deeper for his stories then. if no limitation on usage, i will prefer that too!

I'm sorry, but if this happens at all, it could only happen in Yutzville USA.

Why?

1) You need a warrant to enter anyone's abode.

2) If the morons are teeing off on high electrical usage, how do they know it's not an electric vehicle, a guy using an arc welder etc?

The lowest useful charging port for a Chevy Volt or a Tesla is a 240V 50A recepticle. Tesla's also have a special 80A charging port.

What happens in a rural area where only electricity is run out to your home?

a very high utility can warrant probable cause which will allow them to enter, they will prolly think your growing pot but instead your mining. while its not illegal, if the irs is tipped off he will be screwed, taxes man btw an electric car isn't going to make you have a power bill like you would be mining, your not charging the car 24/7 rofl that would just be stupid

I have been getting high usage notices from my utility company, they aren't going do anything as long as I pay but they have noticed.

not true man, it depends on the area. high power usage means you will be watched, it also depends on the power company. like my area I belive its around 30k watts and then they really watch what you are doing trying to figure out why you are using soo much power. could be during your billing period or by monthly

I heard about those stories, cops looking at utility usage to detect clandestine marijuana cultivation, and storming your house to look for it, but i think that if you do something "legal" with the electricity there shouldn't be an issue, but you never know, with the growing interest in crypto, maybe there is also something to do with the IRS looking for illegal business undeclared (crypto, workshops, and so on), power company being private could also ask you to stop because you overload part of their power delivery system that may not be up to snuff because they wanted to save money somewhere.

High electrical use in itself is not illegal or evidence of a crime and therefore not a basis for probable cause of illegal activity for a judge to issue a search warrant.

I wouldn't worry about it my electricity usage jumped more than 10-fold to nearly 5 MW per month and noone has given a single fuck. been 6 months

is this your dwelling? home or condo 5mw is big!.

yes, own home. 100A 3-phase, so i could get out much more if i wanted.

What year was your home built?  Mine is 200A 3-phase.

i have 400 amp service at my house and run 30 machines on it + home operations.  As long as you pay the bill why the hell would the electric company care.  If you are growing weed and mining then you have some worries....

I have 10 rigs atm consuming about 10kw 24/7.  I have 400A service but plan to add a 2nd 400A service to my shop building and move everything there in the spring.  I've got S9's inbound in February I hope.

I keep pretty close tabs on my usage:

http://www.cstone.net/~dk/brultech_12_11_17.PNG

My solar arrays helps push energy back into the grid during sunny days, even now 10 days away from the shortest day of the year.

My POCO hasn't "stormed in" yet.  In fact, I have been talking to them about getting commercial rates and what all is involved.  They know I'm mining.  I live in the sticks in Virginia and my POCO is a CO-OP.  They have been really great to deal with over the years, but I'm sure YMMV.

thanks for low down. Loosk like you live in house? DO you have to have special agreement or plan with utility? I live in condo so solar is pretty much non-option.

OK SO I assume it is 12KW?
(100A*120V=12000V*A=12000W

In bay area it is PGE is the utility company. I think the current going rate is about 0.20$ /kw. I know they ratchet up a lot when consumption increase during winter. They have like tier 1,2,3 pricing and who know how much of a tier it goes up.
I have been to through tier 3 pricing and if i remember correctly it ramped up to 0.27$ possibly more.

that sounds brutal those rates!

i just found out its 0.06c here but when you factor in distribution costs and etc its actually really 0.15c

I live in a private single family residence on a fairly rural lot.  I did have to do a Net Metering agreement with the utility and they installed a meter that reads both forwards and backwards and transmits daily tallies for Delivered kWh (to me) and Received kWh (to them) and Net kWh.  When I produce more power than I consume, they credit me the kWh at the exact same rate I pay them.  My rates are constant 24/7/365.

I know other utilities pay you less for the excess you send them, and also have variable rates depending on time of day and season.  I'm glad I don't have to deal with any of that nonsense.

Did you discuss static rates with your utility, Or do they simply not practice variable rates depending on time of day?

where is it?. 0.06c sounds like a steal. PGE is known for dropping balls from time to time and never acknowledging. There is a recent report that PGE could also be responsible for massive fire that destroyed NAPA valley's significant part but also reporter acknowledged it is probably newer be known for sure.

Australia, 240V so max what i can get is

Power result in kilowatts: 41.569219382

The only reason I could think of officials knocking the door down to know what's going on would be because they think you're a pot farmer (another high energy operation), but plenty of companies back in the .com boom had 400A services into homes running their mainframe computers. I don't think they would care once they understand what you're doing.

However, if you do not own your house and have agreed to pay a flat monthly rate for utilities, I could see some issues arising there  ;)

there appears to be a lot of middleman in jacking up prices and pocketing a profit. I havent got to the bottom of this article but looks like something worthy of a reading sometime in hte near future. So I pasted here:

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-electricity-capacity-investments/#nt=oft12aH-3la1




Why Wall Street gets a cut of your power bill
A California program designed to strengthen the electricity grid has lost nearly $700 million – at consumers’ expense
By IVAN PENN

DEC. 14, 2017


Eric Hildebrandt first raised the red flag in an annual report written in 2015 for his bosses overseeing California’s electricity market. He raised the same issue in a 2016 report. And he is raising it again in a recently released 2017 report.

The warning to the California Independent System Operator: Trading by speculators and other investors in an obscure financial instrument pegged to electricity transmission is costing the state’s electricity customers an average of $76 million a year, contributing to higher rates. From 2009 to 2017, Hildebrandt reported to the state, California ratepayers lost almost $700 million, and the tab keeps growing.

While generating profits for investors with returns averaging 146% a year, the trading serves little purpose for energy users and shouldn’t cost consumers a dime, his reports have concluded. Hildebrandt recommends the trading — also cited for its vulnerability to market manipulation akin to the Enron scandal — be terminated.

“It’s not needed,” said Hildebrandt, director of Cal-ISO’s market monitoring division. “Stop subsidizing a free market. Don’t expose the ratepayers to the losses.”

Despite the warnings, the trading has continued with minor modifications. Although the losses over time have narrowed somewhat, the $49 million in losses so far in 2017 already have exceeded last year’s total by nearly $2 million through the end of October.

Cumulative losses for electricity customers
A program to help keep power plants solvent was supposed to pay for itself. Instead it has cost California ratepayers almost $700 million since 2009.


Source: Cal-ISO
Lax oversight of trading in energy markets, critics contend, is another example of how the state’s regulatory bodies have failed California’s electricity users. Rather than protecting consumers from extreme fluctuations in energy prices when demand spikes, regulations have burdened them with paying for the profits Wall Street collects.

This has added to the cost of electricity, which is already rising rapidly because the state has allowed more power plants to be built than are needed while failing to coordinate the expansion of renewable energy sources. As a result, California consumers are paying 50% more for electricity than the average user in other states — $6.8 billion a year more than just under a decade ago, even though they’re using less electricity.

Critics of California’s energy market say the burden on consumers will only get worse if Cal-ISO’s authority is expanded. Currently, Cal-ISO controls California’s electric grid, but it has proposed broadening its jurisdiction across almost a dozen Western states with eyes toward parts of Canada and Mexico.

Hildebrandt’s concerns are bolstered, those critics say, by recurring attempts at market manipulation by investors. Federal regulators have assessed $1.6 billion in penalties against traders, banks, utilities, power producers and grid operators for various violations since anti-manipulation laws were enacted by Congress in 2005, a Los Angeles Times investigation has found.

More than a third of the assessed penalties have been tied to California’s energy market.

In some ways, banks, financial traders and others have ripped pages from the Enron-era playbook, creating variations on the electricity trading strategies used during the California energy crisis, when schemes named “Get Shorty” and “Death Star” contributed to rolling blackouts.

The biggest penalties involved JP Morgan and Barclays. Federal regulators assessed those two banks more than a half-billion dollars, including a $105-million settlement last month with Barclays for alleged trading violations that occurred from 2006 to 2008. The majority of the assessed penalties go into federal coffers, though some fines are awarded to consumers for harm they suffered.

High-voltage penalties
Regulators have levied $1.6 billion in fines since the Enron scandal prompted Congress to pass tougher laws. More than a third of the total is tied to California’s energy market.

Linked to California
GDF Suez
$82 million
PacificCorp
$97 million
Total Gas & Power
$226 million
Constellation
$245 million
Barclays
$105 million
J.P. Morgan
$410 million
Sources: Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, Times analysis. Download the data »
Jon Wellinghoff, a former chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, said he believes the system has improved over the last 10 years with increased federal enforcement and stiff penalties.

“I think the banks understood pretty quickly that they couldn’t engage in those kinds of practices,” Wellinghoff said.

But other market players not accused of wrongdoing have tapped high-risk investment opportunities such as the one Hildebrandt is protesting.

Cal-ISO’s transmission-related investment vehicle was created as a hedge against unexpected fluctuations in electricity prices.

In this case, it involves the cost of transmitting electricity over power lines, which is one component in the overall price of electricity. For example, when demand increases dramatically, it can at times lead to congestion on a particular power line, requiring power producers to send electricity a more circuitous — and potentially expensive — route.

Basic economics kicks in: The price of energy rises with increased demand for a power line, like a toll road where fees rise and fall depending on traffic.

Play Video
By trading something known as congestion revenue rights, power plant owners can try to offset, or hedge, against transmission price surges, which ultimately the ratepayer must bear. Financial institutions also jumped in when they realized they could make money. In fact, their participation in the program has increased more than that of any other group.

Investors make money when utilities need to push more electricity than expected through the power-line location where investors have purchased congestion rights.

Energy markets in other areas of the country have faced criticism for similar practices that cost consumers.

Keith Casey, Cal-ISO’s vice president for market and infrastructure development, said Cal-ISO, which recently released a report on the program, is reviewing it and hopes to enact a new policy next year.

Casey said the trading is an important tool that provides protection against soaring electricity prices. Losses to consumers, he said, are a small fraction of the annual cost of California’s $8-billion energy market.

“Any draconian change or abolishing [the investment] altogether could have big ramifications,” Casey said.

But critics such as Hildebrandt argue that the only real danger of ending the program is the threat to Wall Street profits that consumers keeping funding.

Although the program was supposed to pay for itself, investors kept winning big. One reason why is because they were allowed to purchase the congestion rights at very low prices. Hildebrandt’s latest report found that ratepayers lost 48 cents per dollar on each transaction.

That has led to the hundreds of millions of dollars in losses, all shouldered by California consumers.


Eric Hildebrandt has been a critic of his own agency. (David Butow/For The Times)
It’s not needed. Stop subsidizing a free market.
— Eric Hildebrandt, director of market monitoring at Cal-ISO
And that’s not the only problem, critics note — the investment programs have been vulnerable to manipulation by market players.

Michael Rosenberg became a high-stakes gambler in Cal-ISO’s electricity market when he began buying congestion revenue rights almost a decade ago.

Rosenberg, a physicist, benefited from his knowledge of the energy world. He had worked for several power and gas companies, including New England’s electricity grid manager and California shareholder-owned utility Pacific Gas & Electric Co.

In spring 2011, about a decade after the California energy crisis had ended, regulators say, Rosenberg and his then-3-year-old Etracom were losing money on the congestion investment.

Then Rosenberg changed his approach.

Rosenberg bet on electricity flow at the New Melones connection in Northern California, roughly between Stockton and Yosemite National Park. When electricity failed to move in the direction of his bet, Rosenberg, federal investigators say, worked to reroute the flow of electricity, like setting up roadblocks and detour signs to redirect traffic.

Rosenberg fostered the change in power-flow direction by offering to acquire and sell electricity to wholesale users at below-market prices, investigators said.

He lost money selling cheap electricity but made far more from the transmission through New Melones.

Etracom realized exponential growth in revenue, swinging from losses of $2 per megawatt to earnings of $35 a megawatt.

Rosenberg blamed Cal-ISO’s market design and software errors that allowed for his strategy, an argument that regulators rejected.

“Market design flaws do not excuse manipulative conduct and sometimes provide the context for it,” investigators concluded.

June 17, 2016
A civil action
Last year federal regulators fined Rosenberg and his company, Etracom, more than $2.5 million.

Federal regulators have imposed $2.5 million in penalties against Etracom and $100,000 against Rosenberg. They also ordered more than $315,000 in profits returned to consumers.

Rosenberg continues to dispute the penalties.

“We’re confident that we’ll be able to show we didn’t violate any laws,” said Robert S. Fleishman, Rosenberg’s lawyer, declining to discuss the case further because of the pending litigation.

The penalties are part of more than $1.6 billion in fines that federal regulators have assessed banks, traders, utilities and even electricity grid operators such as Cal-ISO. The penalties reflect the higher scrutiny given to the nation’s energy markets after manipulation of California’s electricity system during the Enron scandal.

Larry Parkinson, director of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission’s enforcement division, said his department is 10 times larger than it was during the days of Enron, which has enabled better policing of manipulation. In addition, technology has led to tools that investigators didn’t have in the past.

But Parkinson added that “bad actors” always attempt to abuse the complex system — something he does not see going away anytime soon.


Workers in the CAL-ISO control center monitor energy across the state's electrical grid. (David Butow/For The Times)
Carrie Bentley, a consultant for the Western Power Trading Forum, an association of energy industry participants, said the Cal-ISO Department of Market Monitoring — of which she was once an employee — is being overly aggressive in attacking the congestion revenue rights problem.

She said eliminating the program would jeopardize the stability of the energy market. The financial support the investments provide, Bentley said, helps ensure that there is sufficient funding to keep plants in operation and consumers’ lights on while preventing wild spikes in electricity prices.

“Don’t throw out the baby,” Bentley said.

Instead of scaling back programs, defenders of Cal-ISO’s operations argue, they should grow. They say that expanding Cal-ISO’s programs and operations will improve management of excess solar and wind power and that reducing use of fossil fuels requires the ability to share resources between states. They argue that the larger system will save $1 billion to $1.5 billion a year by 2030.

Ralph Cavanagh, a program co-director at the Natural Resources Defense Council and one of the leading proponents of a single Western grid manager, said that a unified electricity grid operation would bring with it increased scrutiny and, as a result, better transparency and less market manipulation. He said with multiple states involved, there would be more people to review the organization than there are with Cal-ISO today.

Cavanagh said he sees opportunities to create more consumer choice, increase clean energy and cut costs if Cal-ISO expands across the West. Such an expansion could help resolve some of the problems with power line congestion, he said.

“Yes, there are significant congestion issues across the grid right now,” Cavanagh said. But with an expanded Cal-ISO, “we would be paying less for congestion.”


Powerlines run near CA-50 on the east side of Sacramento. (David Butow/For The Times)
Critics don’t see it that way. And some, such as Parkinson of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, go as far as to say that a larger operation invites more potential problems.

“I think almost by definition, the more market participants you have, the more likely it is that some of them may be folks that are trying to exploit loopholes or vulnerabilities in those markets,” Parkinson said.

 
Full coverage: California’s energy glut »

Who would benefit?

Banks, investors and power companies, said Tyson Slocum, of Washington, D.C.-based consumer advocacy organization Public Citizen.

That would also likely result in more trading pegged to such physical operations as electricity transmission — and potentially even higher trading losses paid at ratepayers’ expense, Slocum said. Those risks should be enough to prompt policy changes and avoid a regional system that’s already proved problematic in the Midwest and the East.

“All of them have poor track records when it comes to transparency, public accountability and ensuring in a transparent process that all stakeholders have equal representation,” Slocum said. “As long as the electricity markets are going to be run by private entities, expanding that is a huge gamble for consumers.”