Bitcoin Forum

I loved the story: "Bitcoin saves the people"

.. but it just doesn't match the realities:

1. Argentina has less node activity than New Zealand and is about as bad as Africa and the rest of South America.
2. Of the 5 largest transactions I checked none were from Argentina.
3. Argentina has 25-50% the transactions it should have to match the US in txs per capita and about the same as some countries 5-6 times smaller.

Now my theory is this:
Those countries that need Bitcoin the MOST will get it the LATEST.
I think this is the same as a kid falling behind in the school: Even if a new better teacher comes along the student is so far behind it handicaps him in following the improved teaching and he gains the least.

Same with Argentina; they have bad government and banking which makes them poor and have bad computer/internet coverage (66% compared to 97% of say Denmark) - which combined makes it difficult to learn about, buy and use Bitcoin.


Already based on the stats we have now I think we can say that by and large the "Western world" holds and will hold for a time the vast majority of all Bitcoin - even though their financial systems are superior and cheaper compared to the rest of the worlds.

With a lot of second wave investors being big shots like the Winkelwoss twins, I think we can also say that Bitcoin will not lead to a major redistribution of wealth in terms of type of and location of the people holding the wealth.

I don't agree with this. The situation is changing rapidly from what it used to be. The Bitcoin innovators have come from the Western countries almost exclusively, and most enterpreneurs (like me) are providing services over here. That's how it used to be, but now it is different.

I'm seeing enterpreneurs emerge that are actually out there in the countries that could benefit from Bitcoin the most. Things are happening there. A lot of things. China, Kenya, Argentina, Brazil, even Iran, things are happening. Finally. There was simply no one there to spread the word before now, that has quite clearly changed. There was a Bitcoin meetup in Buenos Aires that had 180 people attending, it's quite a drastic change.

Since Bitcoin is growing in Western countries as well, it will probably take a year or two for the others to properly catch up. The service infrastructure and entrepreneurial effort is only getting started, while over here it has developed for a few years already. Just give it time and things will happen big time in countries like Argentina.

Lot's of bitcoin traders in Argentina, problem is they can't get any money out of there without physically driving across the border and using another countries' banking system. Payday in Argentina everybody lines up to drain the ATM so the goverment can't seize their money. After they drain it they go looking to convert worthless ARG into something else

I try to keep up to date on Argentina. My impression is that the handicap they have due to lower Internet penetration compared to western countries is starting to be overcome by the stronger incentives that they have given their horrible currency.

Don't forget that the language barrier has also slowed things down there... but again, that is starting to change. Adoption is starting to overtake other Spanish speaking countries.

Driving across the border and using another countries banking system is pure madness!

I shipped 3 ASICMiner USB Block Erupters to Argentina today :)

I hope no one here works in logistics :-)

I think the language barrier is often underestimated. The vast majority of Bitcoin content, knowledge, and discussion is English. Other cultures/languages have to go through the process of translating much of this, or creating their own content. This takes a great deal of time.

Nobody is arguing that Bitcoin is "Big in Argentina". The argument is that it has shown some early signs of a small core of enthusiasts organizing there, and this is very important because once a committed group gets organized, good things start happening. Look for Bitcoin to gain lots of Argentinian users in 2014.

Once the volatility of bitcoin dies down I believe it will become a godsend in countries like Argentina and Iran. A currency their governments have no control over...  ::)

The only problem is how will they get bitcoins?

Hi, I'm in Argentina and as far as I know, it is in the Western hemisphere guys...:D

Now, back on track, I think we're seeing lots more people interested in bitcoin, some start buying a few mbtc as a novelty, or get a block erupter since it's a small cool thing to have.

There are some traders, and I see some tourists that buy pesos with btc via localbitcoins but I wouldn't say it's being adopted. It's really far from that.
Lately some news stories mentioned bitcoin which is remarkable, and there are a few local groups promoting meetups and discussion forums as well.

Our local currency (ARS, not argentum / ARG) is in a constant down trend, so many could have a use for bitcoin or whatever crypto currency that is less volatile than our fiat if such thing gains traction.

hey, progress though!

Numbers don't lie. You just had it from the horses mouth.

Sure eventually all the world will be Bitcoin land, but so far Argentina is not its capitol or even close. I hope this changes of course.

but progress nonetheless :)

The second wave coming in will be the Chinese and they will swarm the Bitcoin economy just as they had done for the production facilities around the world.

And they could just acquire an exchange or two

Hong Kong Exchanges' Bid For LME Will Give China More Power In Global Commodity Trading
http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2012/06/19/how-china-is-covertly-taking-control-of-the-global-gold-market/

I´m from and live in Argentina.
BTC grow in last year or year and half.
Before that point, don´t exist.

We can´t make big transactions, because be can´t mine enough because equipment is costfull and tooooo far away.

Check last time client dowload or transaction in last months.

Oh, i forgot something.
There is a tradition here. Many (maybe too much) transactions (by bank, BTC or whatever) are make from outside Argentina.
That´s because we always are trying to keep our saves in differents places... to save it from seizes or whatever.

The best thing i cuold suggest you is come here and check it.

Argentina is our fourth largest source of traffic. Currently sitting behind North America, Canada and the UK. 

Just join us already :)

North America?

+1

There is still a government crackdown on leaking any money out of the country. I looked around and found a few ways through it, but they are high fee. You can use Rapipago and other payment gateways to accept money from Argentinians, convert it to USD/another currency, and then sell them bitcoins. It's like 5-12% fees though sometimes more, but better than smuggling cash over the border.

Argentinians can get an Okpay account, make a fake website that sells a service, and drop in a payment gateway on it that settles to your USD Okpay account. Now spend your own money on the gateway through your fake website which is dumped into Okpay, then go on btc-e (i think they still accept Okpay) and buy bitcoins. I just p2p buy on IRC with okpay and use exchanges as little as possible.

Or send wires from Okpay to other exchanges like Bitstamp or something. I successfully did this with an Argencard gateway (with close friends not letting other people use it cuz cards can be frauded) and now whenever they want coins they just buy it online with their credit card and the stupid government blockade is bypassed. I also tried a payment gateway that uses Inpay, which allows Argentinian bank transfers. It was high fees but worked as advertised, just most people don't keep any money in their bank (from what I was told) so they manually load Argencards and prefer that. This will never work on a large scale public basis because of fraud but you can do this yourself easily and for friends.

Right now it's virtually impossible to get legal US dollars or other currency inside Argentina, so they take a boat to Colonia Uruguay, withdraw all their money in USD through ATMs, and then smuggle it back or get an account there. Not everybody can do this every payday so bitcoins and even just Okpay USD is better than 25% inflation per year of the national currency, rendering all your savings worthless paper

what about physically carrying cash over the border. not smuggling or anything just staying within the legal limits. people who lived near the boarders could make a daily trip to carry what ever was within the legal amount physically in their wallets across the border. they could then buy bitcoins and bring the bitcoins back across. of course they would arbitrage for their effort.

What about not even trying to move cash across the border?

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/beef-and-bitcoin/

yes i like where this is going. here is an idea. find good useful products to sell on bitmit and underbid the other sellers. since its so difficult to get coins into the country you ought to be able to make up the difference with premiums on the coins you sell.

it is probably really hard for Argentinians to convert local currency into BTC

even for people in the US, it was not really easy when Mtcocks stopped taking their money

And why should an exchange open up in Argentinia, to accept large amount of weak local currency, for BTC? What would they do with that local currency? They cannot move it out or convert.

In Cyprus the story was different, the currency was Euros. Only the bank transfers to the outside were halted.

A lot of these rumours about various countries accepting Bitcoins or making them an accepted currencies seem to come from pretty unreliable looking sources, usually some idiot with a blog looking to get lots of views or actual conspiracy theorists. I have noticed though that there are plenty of private companies already making a move and it seems that countries who have long been independent of the major empires seem to like Bitcoin quite a lot even if they don't say anything, because you see a lot of the companies based in independent countries quite happy to use it.

See the known tax havens etc. countries that care about privacy rights, you could easily argue that Bitcoin is a common ally for these kind of countries.

they would use it to buy things inside of Argentina... the fact that the currency sucks doesnt mean we should expect people to be unwilling to trade bitcoin for it, just that such transactions should be expected to carry a very large premium

Agreed, I mine and trade for pesos, to then pay rent, buy food or whatnot. :D

there are a lot of bitcoiners that have translated most of the knowledge, i know of queesbitcoin.info (http://queesbitcoin.info) is one

It's near impossible to buy at official rate (now about 6 ARS/USD) but you can buy at illegal market, the so called Dólar Blue cotization which goes around 9 ARS/USD. Yes, 50%.
The problem goes into the other side too, nobody is going to give you cash dollars, they will convert your dollars into ARS at official rate.

Now there is a limit on this, you can't withdraw more than a few hundred bucks per month in other countries ATMs.


Anyway the Gov. is not going to permit an exchange here.

+1

...and of course someone could offer to do this for other people looking for Bitcoins and charge a premium (or simple do this and sell the Bitcoins at localbitcoins in hand).

Why wouldn't this work?

Its because their government has a tight grip on their bank accounts.
They can't change ARG for USD, they can't wire money and they can't consequently they can't buy mining equipment (not that mining is worth much nowadays)
Their president is literarily a feminazi.

I live in Argentina. Land of large scale economic experiments

This is what people want to do with their savings:

1 - Get rid of ARS (change them for some other currency)
2 - Buy BTC to hedge against US inflation

For argentinians #1 is much more important than #2, they are perfectly happy keeping their savings in the "weak fiat"  the USD is. If you think the FED is destroying the USD, then try the ARS.  (inflation in ARS is 25% annual)

That said, many argentinians are using BTC to achieve #1 without the physical interchange of USD or EUR bills, but the amounts are tiny since wealthy people is already invested in USD.  The BTC is used as a temporary tool, and is far from perfect.

Other funny facts that will make into economic research papers:
- A BTC/ARS exchange will never be approved by Government (heck, even a USD/ARS exchange is forbidden)
- Nobody sells dollars at the official rate of 5.7 (rate that is used for "approved" imports and all exports)
- Informal traders put the rate at 9.3 ARS/USD. It is illegal to buy or sell foreign currency (law that is impossible to enforce anyway)
- Argentinians can use their credit cards to buy stuff in foreign currency (either travelling or online) paying in ARS at a 20% premium on top of the 5.7 rate (~ 7 ARS/USD). But this is probably going to end after October elections. There are practical limits for this anyway (CC limits for instance)
- Argentinian internal economy is not thriving, but is not bad at all.

You guys have practically put an embargo on yourselves.
How is that not bad all.

That is very suitable for services. As per products, most products are more expensive in Argentina than in the US and if the goverment finds out you are exporting, they will force your client to deposit the dollars in the government account, and they will give you pesos (that they happily print at no cost) at the official rate.
 

I'm saying people are spending as if there is no tomorrow and the economy is moving.

The problem is getting rid of pesos. People have pesos and pesos worth nothing outside Argentina.  Look at the paradox: the Argentina Central Bank does not buy them at any price. 

I think that is because they KNOW that there IS NO tomorrow for the peso unless the government gets its act together.  And they know that is extremely unlikely.

The spending will not last, it is just going to make things worse because no one wants the currency, only goods (for obvious reasons). 

:-)

Exactly right.  :-)

It is the classic case of devaluing a currency to the extreme.  One cannot devalue one's way to prosperity, only to misery.  The smart people (which seems like almost everyone in Argentina) are trading paper that becomes worth less every day for hard assets.

Actually, quite the opposite.

The people who have control of the printing press, i.e. the people who control whether to devalue or not, most certainly can and do use devalue of everybody else to create prosperity for themselves.

Your statement about prosperity makes no sense; it's as you think the decision makers' lives are in any way connected with the lives of their victims.

Just as we're talking about inflation. Some history...

http://www.acting-man.com/blog/media/2013/02/Zim-inflation-2.jpg

Source (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-04/guest-post-stocks-money-flows-and-inflation)

Argentina has the 9th position of inflation record with the 1981 inflation (http://www.tothetick.com/hyperinflation-10-worst-cases).

Your statement that a country can devalue its way to prosperity makes absolutely no sense.  Please feel free to cite an example where a country devalued its currency continually and prospered.

Argentina is not going to devalue their way to prosperity, only misery.  I don't think they will prove me wrong.

If you were being purposefully obtuse and reading my statements about Argentina as referring to an individual (and given I was replying to a message about Argentina, not an individual that seems a big stretch), then yes, if an individual or small group of individuals control the printing press and prints themselves $50 billion and keeps it for themselves, then sure an individual can do so, but they will be killing their own currency unless they immediately trade it.

It should be relatively risk free for an exchange, as they hold both the bitcoins and the fiat until a trade is done by the users. The risk is on the bitcoin seller, but that should only skew the price, trades should always be possible. It's just like the blue dollars.