Bitcoin Forum

People who are aware of creations like the 'New World Order' and are able to see bigger pictures are probably already aware of what I'm going to tell you here. Everyone else should take the time to read this. This should be an easy to understand explanation for unaware people. If you have some corrections, just let me know about. Feel free to leave other thoughts in here too.

They have planned it through and through. NVC is the highest 'valued' altcoin for a long time now.

Novacoin is based on ppc. It uses proof of work and proof of stake instead of PoW only (initial thread 114712 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114712.0)). There was a premine of 210,000+ coins (143828 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=143828.0)). 110'000 of that premined coins were 'destroyed' (sent to an address that can't be generated with any private key) by BTC-E (more details about that later). The other 100k+ coins that were premined are probably still in existence.

The premining shocked a lot of people away from it (what's a good sign) and created less competition to the people who where willing to mine it (probably the creator themselves, some insiders and a little bit of others who didn't/don't understand why premining is bad). This was the first 'bad-news' for NVC right after the release.

The NVC creators gave 110k of their premined coins to BTC-E to get listed there (probably for a lifetime). Of course you want your altcoin getting listed on the biggest altcoin exchange as soon as possible and as long as possible, especially if you have a lot of the already existing coins and will get more out of mining than others because of the PoS reward system that is included. People got informed about that and BTC-E decided to destroy all the received bribe money after a huge revolt from the community (144158 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144158.0)), but never have removed the trading pair nvc/btc on their exchange. Nothing ever got public what has happen to the other 100k premined coins. So they were probably still in the hands of the creators. Smells wrong, right?

The BTC-E story was the second 'bad-news' for NVC and not a lot of the still miners were willing to support that scam further on. A lot of traders have sold their holded NVCs (to the 'still believers'). The above named mining'-insiders' were able to mine even more coins. At that point they have a very high percentage of all coins. It's very likely that it was above 90%. With that it's easy to drive the prize up slowly over time (by simple market manipulation through pumps/dumps, give-away's and so on) and not actually have to give away a high percentage of the holding coins. The slowly increasing prize became interesting for other miners who are looking to mine the coin that gives them the most rewards in a short-term. They mine it and probably sell the mined coins as soon as possible. And who is buying them? Right, the same gays again. These miners don't really care that they are helping securing a network of a coin no one really want to see 'succeed', they are just looking to make as much money as possible.

As already mentioned: The proof of stake implementation makes sure that the miners who have already mined more than others get higher rewards on their further generated blocks. I don't think I have to tell who is going to get the most coins out of mining in the case of nvc.. Of course it's about the same guys again and again.

As time goes by and bitcoin became more and more a topic for none-geeks through mainstream news and simply 'mouth-to-mouth propaganda', more and more people also got interested in altcoins. Most of them are not willing to do their research and simply buy what they think is 'hot'. NVC seems to be very hot then it's the most 'valued' and 'stable' altcoin of em all. The big holders can take most of the investment back if they do it 'right'.

So what we have now is an altcoin called novacoin that has the highest rate of all altcoins and has a very secure network (probably the most secure one of all the altcoins out there). But it's also a coin that is 'controlled' by a small amount of people. Newbies will fall for that coin and the process will start over and over again. The nvc powers in place will not give up their position without a fight. Sounds familiar? It is of course not driving satoshi's idea of decentralization further on. You can call NVC being the NWO of the cryptocoins. I also like to call it 'No Value Coin'.

So if that still isn't looking like a very well planned scam for you, then I really can't help you.

You can say pretty much everything you said about nvc also about bitcoin

-- huge premine
-- hundreds of thousands of coins destroyed
-- highest value coin
-- very secure network
-- it is good for the coin to be listed on an exchange
-- many people mistrust it
-- many people buy it because they think it is 'hot'
-- a coin 'controlled' by a small amount of people
-- the coin powers in place will not give up their position without a fight

So, once again, what is your point, really?

BTC-E is the biggest ongoing scam in the cryptocoin history, Novacoin is just a part of there scam.


They force users to pay 0.5 Litecoin for each withdrawal of Litecoins while taking advantage of there status of being a popular litecoin exchange.

Then they charge 150x less (0.1ftc 0.001btc etc) for alt coin withdrawals.

This scam is gone too far, they dump the litecoins at a lower value stunting the growth of it and they know most the users end up giving the litecoin back to them while withdrawing so they have endless power.


They could manipulate any market they like, they have premined feathercoins being pumped and dumped too.


Stay away from them, i heard they stole tons of bitcoins in the past too but i can't comment any further on that.

Long post is long.

I am agree about the critics towards NVC, it is a weird shady coin..
But why do you always suppose premined is bad?! Yes it is bad for shit-head selfish pump-dumping miners who prefer it to start from zero, so they can mine a huge bunch of it at the easy starting points after launch and then when the price goes up, dump it to profit a lot (pyramid game) and that kills the coin and leaves a huge loss for other people who invested later.. a lot of examples are available, you know.
Once again, of course not premined is better than premined in general, but do you expect a group of highly skilled developers sit and create a new innovative coin (copycat coins are total shit no matter premined or not premined and excluded from my argument) without any profit or return for their work, so the coin get released to the prey of the above-mentioned type of miners who are ready there at the gate to receive, pump-dump and then kill it??!
If it is a new innovative promising coin, a small percentage of premined to be used to pay the developers+ further developments and bounties is fair and also may guarantee the future growth and progress of the coin economy.

Premining is bad because someone who has so much control over the economy can fuck it up instantly and they did nothing to deserve it.

I have an impression you really didn't read what you quoted.

The original post failed to mention that the interest rate on stake was jacked way the heck up into ponzi type interest rates kind of range a while back, to give the insiders insane amounts of interest on their huge holdings, and of course that is planned to be lowered back down once they have used it to magnify their own holdings so others going forward won't be getting such rates.

Basically they just screw around with it any way they please just like used to happen with SolidCoin.

-MarkM-

If the coin is a promising with very new features and improvements, and if the % premined is under %1, no, premining is not blindly bad, since creators won't dump apromising coin which may bring them a long-term profit and reputation, for a short term small profit that leaves them bad name..
But of course premining is bad for the average mean-spirited miners who just care about short term bump and dump dirty profit..
I say again: not premined is of course better that premined in general, but sometimes impossible, irrelevant and also not healthy for the coin itself.
One may also make an argument about closed source (for a short initial period after public launch) to prevent copy-cat morons out there to prevent them copying the coin the other way... and just publish open source when things get established with a required level of stablity..
But yes premined is bad for bump-dump miners, I agree with you ;)

Okay, you caught me  ;D

Bitcoin was premine too... And there were people having hundreds of thousands of BTC, and in some point (when the price raise) they had to sell it to profit and that BTC become again distributed and decentralized in the world.

MTGOX its the biggets scamer, they control the price of btc and now the LTC to. Look what they made the last month, they said they will add LTC before August to make the price raise a lot (more than 60%), sell it for high price and they dump by don´t giving any news, and then buy it cheap again.

So, yes, all the cryptocurrecies market its a big scam but are the rules in this game, you can`t make free currency and decentralized in a world where there are people with lots of money and can grab the ones they want to manipulate the market.

About  50%  of what the topic info amounted to was pure market mechanism .

" so people didn't mine " this 

and

" that meant they manipulated with giveaways " that.

However inside there , there is a pre-mine / instsmine .

Fact just ends up if you don't like the way this works don't use it , recently found out about the LTC controversy GPU miners being around a lot longer than the " community " knew about

Of course this makes myself ultra interested , having the first GPU era non pre-mined non insta mined currency , that being  Nibble .

is a false statement.

If you don't like it - don't use it...

I never had anything to do with NVC at all. For me it was a 'no no' from the start on.
I'm just trying to list the needed information for those who are not able/willing to do the research.

+1

Nope BFL is

Uh, yes I do expect developers to make it without a scam. Namecoin, ppcoin, and primecoin didn't have any premine drama. Some people say bitcoin had "premining", but that's mainly just because it took a long time for anyone to even notice bitcoin after it was released.

This right here is by far the worst.

Yuup, it was just satoshi mining for a while, the problem wasn't him hiding the coin, it was people not jumping in  ;)

Bitcoin and Novacoin is not comparable to each other. bitcoin was first coin that nobody knows what is mining.

Novacoin comes to world when everybody was ready to mine it the second it released.

I agree with the post. NVC is a problem. It used to be that the volume was low (so I assume it was simply being exchanged among friends since there was no interest), but now you have a coin which is twice as valuable as LTC and as much exchange volume as NMC. And all because nobody cared about it. İf there was any interest in the beginning the price would be lower than PPC.

Now, what is the moral of the story. When FTC came out, I could clearly see it would be a pump and dump. I thought that it wouldn't be ethical to join that (my purpose in life is not to maximize my monetary gains). But now I wonder, maybe the people who did the pump and dump did a service to the community by destroying peoples collective trust in an untrustable coin.

I mean, looking at this, I am almost tempted to say that, the same thing may happen with the ORB if nobody does the pump and dump... rather depressing perspective...

I'd say for a late comer like me, looking at a coin months or more after launch, a premine like Novacoin's hardly matter. The developers have a good amount, but so what? Some people have a good amount with other coins as well. It doesn't make any difference to a late comer. I could even argue the developer, not feeling the pressure to recoup the cost of a server farm used to mine that stash, may hold his nerve better with selling.

I think premine irks people on this forum because it may impact their initial gold rush profit. For a Novacoin size premine, it just doesn't change much in the long term.

People should educate themselves on what they are investing in before they invest/purchase. That includes my coins that I sell as well. Do your due diligence people.  :)

+1

The simple fact of the matter is that people should do the footwork before investing their money/time/efforts. Good advice for all things in life, whether it be investing in a currency, buying a new car, taking a new job or choosing a spouse.

All the information is available for every one of these (so-called) alt-coins. Anyone, whether crypto-vet or crypto-newbie, can find plenty of information to make as sound decisions as possible on any coin before deciding to invest their money/time/efforts. As with anything in life, when people make ignorant, in-the-moment choices based on what's "Hot"....they often end up getting burned. These are the lessons we all must learn, one way or another!

No one can blame the game for their losses when they don't bother taking the time to learn how to play.  ;)

EXCHANGES ARE PART OF THE MANIPULATION..
 look  crypysy  /   especially with infinity coin:) 
than there was franko a dead coin with 1.2 mhs      and .000x something..  mods there pumped it. yes mods.. took it to .02 !!!!!!!!!!!
this is part of capitalism at its finest..    gambling at best. don't be a sorrow looser...      learn  to get on the trend as in all investments.. do not fight the  fed( foundation)  and let the trend be your friend

This is all fundamental economics... "supply and demand".

NVC folks are masterful in controlling supply,  for some reason demand is enough to push its price up.

Other coins that have too much supply, will go no where, because the reality is that right now,  almost every coin price is merely speculation (without any real world usage).

http://nvc.cryptocoinexplorer.com/block/c7c90a2dd98e86664b206ad7fab812b4bbf437a32f3764e924cf6aeee98ec86f

Huh guys. NVC has been a total profit for me for several months already.
I didn't mine it, just bought when nobody wanted to buy. Now I got almost 100% return on price plus ~20% on stake.
Yup, probably NVC isn't a coin that the world can accept, but it doesn't prevent me from using it with profit.
And you can't call it scam. Having premine is not a scam in general. Scam is dumping premine. That didn't happen yet nor I see it happening in the near future.

Agreed.

The risk of NVC is huge and I still can't see the value in it over LTC. As of now, per the dustcoin.com mining profitability calculator the total value of all NVC generated is ~17,155 BTC while for LTC it is ~513,111 BTC. LTC is much, much larger and not controlled by a very few who can destroy it easily like NVC, IMO.

LTC is a safer bet for me.

Also, if you check out the Buy/Sell orderbook depth at BTC-e...that is pocket change for NVC compared to LTC.

Same here. Crypto is very risky. LTC is a better bet.

According to the novacoin explorer at http://nvc.cryptocoinexplorer.com/

462470 coins were created.  The originators have about 100k coins left after giving 110k to Btc-E.  462470 - 110k destroyed = 362470.  The originators have 100k / 362470 = 27.6% of all coins, plus stake minted.  That is a worrying amount of concentrated control of supply!  This Balthazar (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=23324) person (the creator) should give away the remaining 100k. 

Satoshi didn't give away his 4 000 000 Bitcoin  ;D
IMO Balthazar should not too....

what satoshi premined 4 million BTC? thats a joke right?

Yep
He premined 5 million BTC, not 4 million ;)

In fact, just one question.
Is there at least one person who claims that NVC is a scam and does not have few thousands (or more) LTC at the same time?

I think it's just a matter of future competition between these currencies.
NVC has many advantages over LTC and can destroy it in future.
For this reason, those who have LTC premine (or "easymine") constantly spreading rumors about NVC-scam.

Truth is that they're just trying to save their erroneous investment in LTC.

wow. this means i can hugely premine all future coins i release! hooray, i'll never work again!


i fucking agree totally.

Or just wait few month until another 400000 will be mined. And 27% (if they exist at all, which I doubt) will drop to 10%.

Novacoin is at start position now. Remember this.

~41% of downloaders came from Russia;
~25% are from USA;
~13% splitted between Ukraine and China.

U.S. citizens are beginning see clearly  ;)

Learn the definition of premine..
He did not premine it. He was the sole miner for quite some time.

He wasn't even the sole miner.  Hal Finney reported mining one of the early blocks (IIRC it was in the first hundred or so).  So the best one could say is Satoshi was one of the few early miners in the first year of Bitcoin. 

Well I know one thing, Balthazar is helping a lot of people in the crypto community plus NVC has pioneered a lot of features now considered standard.

so +1 to NVC from me.

Well then.. good info, didn't know this.
So essentially no premine.

Not sure about OP, but I do beliee that NVC is insanely overvalued on BTC-e. As long as it is trading higher in NVC/BTC than LTC/BTC, the coin is total bs. There are surely more vendors that accept Litecoin over unknown Novacoin, and Litecoins market cap is higher, I don't understand how it is valued that highly without some form of manipulation behind it.

I feel the same way..

The reason given here for why premine is bad for investors applies to satoshi's stash just like premine. Doesn't really matter for investors deciding to buy/sell today. If it's not a big problem for bitcoin, why is it for novacoin?


You've totally ignored factors like quantity in circulation and interest rate. For a start, there are more than 20M litcoins now, but only around 432k novacoins (332k if you subtract the 100k destroyed). Litecoin has a much higher market capitalization than novacoin (~30 times).

Who are you? Satoshi's mom?

Maybe guys who "secret mined" $100,000,000 can defend themselves?

Yeah Satoshi needs to come in here and give us an explanation for this!!!  :D

Yup blaim the inventor of crypto for taking money for his work.. we should all start non profitable things  ::)
Yes I'm his mom, nice to meet you.

To the people that start about Satoshi's so called premining, he didn't premine anything! He released it in the open en started, that only a few mined with him is not his fault. If someone releases a coin now and nobody wants to mine it, nobody will complain that the dev is mining alone.  :-\
And for your information, he didn't sold any of his coins and really didn't look like the person who started Bitcoin to get as fast as possible, as rich as possible.

I hope you get therapy for your mental condition? NVC is in no way competition for Litecoin.

You understand, Litecoin wouldn't exist anymore if Coblee had premined 210k coins? Those people invested in it because it was an honest coin, else it would have got the same complaints as we have about the scamcoin you clearly hold. And Litecoin doesn't gets it value by artificial pumps, but through development and adoption! Tell me what plans does the NVC community has? I'm sure lot's of discussion going on in the non-existent novacoin forums. I'm sure lot's of exchanges are eager to implement NVC, payment processors are on their way and I probably missed all the media attention.

And if I would think Novacoin was such a great coin that could destroy LTC in the future and money was my only motivation, why the hell wouldn't I just buy them?  ::)

I agree BFL is the biggest scam. They skinned me bad.

NovaCoin I think is a brilliant design but when over 85% of the coin supply is mined in the first 10 days or so of a coins life it is kind of a stand out.

With novacoin we all have the option to just not mine or trade it.

NovaCoin is a ScamCoin!  >:(

Supply is growing constantly... And now it's more than 3 times higher than it was at the beginning of 2013. But of course, anybody is free to choose another project, no one will object. :)