Bitcoin Forum

Was thinking the BTCitcoin community should snatch up some homes in Detroit after reading this article:

http://homes.yahoo.com/photos/yahoo-homes-of-the-week-homes-listed-for-less-than-5-000-slideshow/


Could use BitcoinStarter (http://www.bitcoinstarter.com) to purchase a few with tier rewards being whatever we want to come up with as a community.  Anyone think its a good idea??

There are a lot of things to think about.


Educational information:
http://www.businessinsider.com/buying-cheap-property-in-detroit-2013-7

I suspect that Detroit is a lost cause.

Buy property there and get taxed to death.

Taxes would be an issue but not that bad.  The problem is that there are too many (bad) houses and not enough demand.  Unless Detroit does something to pick up demand the problem will continue. Rentals in Detroit are super low as well with tenants that can do more damage than the rent. 

Detroit is approximately $20 Billion in debt, and

Half of Detroit property owners don't pay taxes
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130221/METRO01/302210375#ixzz2b0fPi2kZ

Delinquency is so pervasive that 77 blocks had only one owner who paid taxes last year.

Detroit has the highest property taxes among big cities nationwide and relies on assessments that are seriously inflated. Many houses are assessed at more than 10 times their market price, according to new research from two Michigan professors.

Billion with a B

There is a way to make money out of extraordinarily cheap housing but actually it does require quite a bit of investment (have seen it done in Australia before).

Basically you buy *every* property in a small street then end the leases for all existing tenants (in a legal and reasonable way) and after they have left rebuild all the houses (and later be very fussy about the new tenants that you let move in).

If you can do that well (and the street is not surrounded by other bad streets) then there is a good chance you can create a nicer new street for people to live in that will actually attract people to it (and then eventually reap the rewards as the property values increase).

It isn't without risk and it isn't so cheap but it has a much better chance than buying a single property in an area that already has severe problems with crime and bad tenants.

But if the taxes are too high then even this approach might not work (so sometimes what look like "bargains" are actually very far from it).

This could work in Detroit if the property taxes were not inflated.  You could buy up neighboring bad blocks and knock em down for open space (and crime reduction) as well if you we're properly taxed for the actual value of the land.

If the area turned around you could build new houses on the empty lots.

Either that or just demolish a block or two and farm it next spring and that would generate a lot of cash money at farmer's markets while also help the community, which is what this city really needs. I live 30 mins west outside Detroit in a semi-rural area and the farm a few miles south of me has an open stand which is busy all day long. They easily make a couple hundred per day minimum so multiply that by product and the few months when ripe produce is available. Just an idea as I know that there is some urban farming going on down there. Or you could run a co-op where certain people put in the work as far as farming and then they get a cut of the yields and the rest is sold.

That is a good idea if there really is that much money in farming.  It is great for the city as it keeps money in that would be leaving otherwise.  The question is how would the city treat the property tax.  In Maryland you get a huge DROP in the property tax if farming is actually going on and it is ZONE-ABLE as farmland.  The property tax is less then 1/5 the normal rate.

Before you get all excited about the prospect of investing in Detroit, read this:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-21/25-facts-about-fall-detroit-will-leave-you-shaking-your-head


A few excerpts:

7.) At this point, there are approximately 78,000 abandoned homes in the city.

11.) If you can believe it, 60 percent of all children in the city of Detroit are living in poverty.

6.) There are lots of houses available for sale in Detroit right now for $500 or less.

23.) The murder rate in Detroit is 11 times higher than it is in New York City.

8.) About one-third of Detroit's 140 square miles is either vacant or derelict.


You can live here:

http://piperbayard.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/detroit-ghetto.jpg

And maybe the kids can go to school here:

http://sometimesinteresting.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/ds-2.jpg


Have fun out there.

For those talking about repurposing large parts of the city for farming etc., you're right there is something to that. People should check out some guys actually doing it:

http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/about (with video)


IMO these kinds of small start over communities are ideal places to integrate Bitcoin and bootstrap strong local economies.

I'm trying to convince my wife to move to Detroit.

Got a lot of family there and would definitely welcome the cold climate... my mining rig would love to have a home in a basement. :)

Lol you fools! I can't count how many times people have ripped off other people on selling property in Detroit, don't think I have heard of a single investor making profit.

we need capitulation first before the buying's ripe! :D

I'm not sure knocking down old shoddy buildings for farmland is a very good idea. What do you think the chances are that the old buildings you are demolishing were painted with lead paint? Even if you disposed of the house materials in the proper way (hazmat precautions required, very very expensive) the ground around where the houses were demolished would be unusable due to the contact it had with the house in standing condition.

I think it would be incredibly neat to have a Bitcoin crowd funding project buy up an area, but I think we may have better luck in another area that is insanely cheap. I have often though of buying a lot of land out in a very rural area, and then creating a large business there. Jobs would attract people to move there, and essentially grow the area into a town. Detroit may still be feasible, but perhaps with a different plan than funding by farming.

The reason I had Detroit in mind is the transportation and infrastructer is already there. Mainly, we snatch up some land/property and convert into a bitcoin shanty town to start and spreading out as we go. At least that is my thinking.  ;D

I have a feeling this might be our only chance.

property taxes

they can be included I mean $5,000 + property taxes isn't going to break the bank.

The infrastructure is very worn, but true that could be fixed more easily than building it all from scratch. It would be neat, but there are a few things that could break the project. First, we would need to create jobs so people could work and afford to live there. We would also need to repair the houses to liveable conditions. So while it may only cost $500 to buy a house, it would still cost many thousands to repair them. Then we would have to deal with crime. Those in areas that weren't improving would be targeting the area that is. I have a feeling the few police officers left in Detroit would be hanging around our section, because we would be the only ones paying taxes, but security would still be an issue. I suppose its doable, but we have to first figure out how to recoup our costs so we can continue expanding.

As for property taxes, I'm sure we could just talk to the mayor and perhaps find some business loophole that would lower the taxes for our project while we were getting everything set up. I would think they would be more interested in a reduced tax rate, rather than none at all.


edit* Also, did a bit of looking into it, rather than aiming at the $500 houses, I'd say aiming at the $10,000-$20,000 houses is a better plan. There are actually quite a few of them that don't look like they are in ghettos. Lets get this one.

http://www.trulia.com/property/3086549069-18620-Muirland-St-Detroit-MI-48221

they better pay me 5000 in taxes to live in detroit....

I agree. $10,000 - $20,000  range houses. Property taxes could be talked down with a mayor I'm sure.  I think jobs can be through some fashion of what we do from the houses that are snatched up. Bitcoin mining, growing stuff ( illegal or legal) ummm there should be way to supplant some sort of basic income.  I think security is something we all would be good at . Libertarians are big pro-gun supporters so some would come along for it.

Can it really be that bad?

The crime rate right now in Detroit is completely insane.

So we are all gunna die when we move into our new homes? lol

Yes

Ok maybe not all of us, but the risk is far greater of being robbed/vandalized/killed in Detroit than nearly anywhere else. I for one, would like to invest there, however I would not personally live there. I'm actually not a fan of Michigan to begin with, so I never had any intention to move there. That does not mean that there aren't people that would live there, or would like to live in a safer/nicer part of Detroit than where they live already. Creating a safe neighborhood would be a #1 priority, and probably the most difficult thing to do.

Luckily we have a Bitcoin arms dealer now! 

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266556.0

We can take over Detroit :D

+1! sweet deal!  ;D

I thought most ppl here knew the golden rule of buying property. Location, then location, and finally location.

The second rule is buy quality for a good price. Not shit for cheap. There is a reason homes in detroit are cheap. It is due to the people who live there. No one wants neighbors that will take revenge on you and yours just because you try to better yourself. Fix up your home, drive a nice car, and take pride in yourself? You are now a target.

Detroit is not Boston in the 60s and 70s. That 5000 dollar home full of lead paint and abestos is there because the ppl in charge of detroit kicked the can down the road one too many times. Maybe in a generation or two the time will come for a rebound.

I've actually been giving this serious consideration.

1. It can't get any lower price-wise; not much anyway when you're talking about a $3000 house. Didn't one of the Rothschilds say "Buy when there's blood in the streets"? Sounds like Detroit.

2. Taxes - yeah, the assessments are high, but the city is so broke, they can't afford to kick people out of their homes. Many people are way behind and have been allowed to keep their homes. Also, they're losing the enforcement ability. The cops actually don't answer calls after 8pm.

which brings me too

3. governmental collapse - it's a good thing. The quicker they let the government of Detroit die completely, the better. There is already a private police force that has started up to good reviews. There is also a private bus system that is probably the best in the nation as far as service goes.

Yet in this case its deal, deal then DEAL!   You make it what you want it to be. If for some reason Detroit turns it around you ( us ) are sitting on a goldmind as Bitcoiner's. Just my 2 cents.

Well, I've convinced my wife, I think.  We are looking for houses and crime rate.  Most of my family lives north of Detroit in the safer areas.

We are looking to buy 4 or 5 houses in close proximity... could be fun.  If not, then I can always bail and move to the safe zone in Sterling Heights :P

Also, it's a relatively cold climate, and with an AC unit, a basement could be ideal for hosting miners.  E-Commerce can be done from a basement as well.

Both of these things would help the Bitcoin community.

I agree. The less enforcement the more freedom the more we make it the way we want it. I'm not sure why people don't think we can make this the way we want it.

1.] Our own protection service

2.] Our own jobs via whatever methods we develop in-house i.e., website development services , bitcoin mining   I mean we are pretty smart people I think we can figure it out! I mean you all make it sounds like seasteading has a better chance then detroit! lol

Don't know but there would be like one or two people who live there ( or whomever pledges can live there) so they will always be maintained.

I agree.  I'm just trying to figure out "reward tiers". Those would be interesting no doubt.

If that's the only attitude you project then yes certainly, but look at the video here:

http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/about

You will see the guys moving in to invest in that neighborhood are not doing it without betterment of the neighborhood being their core mission. Making a profit isn't the only thing which might attract people to Detroit. Opportunity can mean different things. There are actually entrepreneurs already on the scene in Detroit. A couple articles:

http://www.fastcompany.com/3007840/creative-conversations/how-young-community-entrepreneurs-rebuilding-detroit

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100900219

I agree it's probably not for the fainthearted, though.

Lol. I can imagine something similar to The Wire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wire).

A large Bitcoin holder buys up a bunch of homes.  Turns them in to stash houses, hires a gang of youngsters and gives them each burner phones as well as a bitcoin address.  The gang peddles drugs and hands over the loot to a cleaner who launders the money through bitcoin.  The gang gets payed weekly through their bitcoin address.

Sounds like a good cypherpunk book.

dude, write that shit up haha

That fast company article proved my point. Two cars stolen and the house burnt down. Lol.

If only I had the time and imagination to turn it into a full story.  Aspiring writers out there, get at it!

check out the username finshaggy.. this is something right up his street. he loves making up stories about drugs and dreams of a uptopian town made using bitcoins..

Lol, yea i have seen his youtube videos.  The kid has some creativity.

I think Hollywood should just buy up Detroit and use it for post-apocalyptic movies and TV series.

It'll be cheaper than making the sets, they don't even have to touch anything.

I'm going to sell my house in Texas and use the proceeds to buy 20 houses in Detroit. 

Is this house seriously on sale for $70?

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/13545-Fleming-St-Detroit-MI-48212/88763714_zpid/

Yes, amazing really.

If the idea is to refab cribs down there and live, I doubt the locals will take kindly to that as someone else has already pointed out. Most of these people don't have jobs and consume from the public trough, so they have plenty of idle time to do whatever. Drugs and the associated lifestyles is very prevalent and there is a certain anti-suburb mentality down there and they certainly don't want any white folk moving in any time soon. Also, police patrols are way down and they only respond to certain kinds of calls, murder is one of them however. :-X

Even if this idea was a bust, it would be good publicity for Bitcoin. "Internet Crypto Currency Group Cleans up the Detroit Housing" - Article about people buying houses with Bitcoins, people reading then associate Bitcoins with real money, the investing group might lose out on a few thousand dollars, but if you are holding enough, a publicity price spike could offset that cost. If it succeeds, you have the publicity + houses which may or may not be worth anything.

I think the answer is building lowish income housing. If you have houses that are too nice, people will torch them. If you have slummy houses, you aren't fixing the problem. So maybe provide lower middle class housing, so people can afford to live there, and you can keep expanding the project without making your tennants a target. (I'm assuming you plan on renovating and leasing out the houses so you will have some sort of income)

I actually am familiar with that area. Pretty scary. You don't want to go out at night around there.

Oh I am not moving there, I was shocked to see a house on sale for $70. But that does not include realtor's fee and all the delinquent property tax. I think in reality - that house will cost thousands.

Even the $10,000 house pointed out earlier is just the auction start price. It will probably go up to $60,000 - $100,000.

A similar idea has already been carried out in Wayne County. It's called Canton. :P

Can a non U.S. citizen to buy from you property?

I believe so, yes.

I think I can buy that house for $ 500. Tell me how do I do this? :)

One of the greatest things Detroit did to bolster their home prices was to privatize property tax information distribution, and sell the rights to a company which ended up putting tax lookups behind a pay wall (yes, I'm serious, and the FAQ looks super-legit -- http://www.bsasoftware.com/support/programs/is/detfaq.html ). That particular property may owe thousands or tens of thousands in back taxes, on top of >$1.2k in annual property taxes. Detroit has also been refusing acceptance of back-taxes for some properties (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130709/METRO01/307090020), lately.

Seriously - stay away.

I still might be moving up to Detroit in the next year, but likely I will be in Sterling Heights :P

100% of my family has said to stay way the fuck away from downtown.  I'm going up for a visit next month and we are going to cruise around and scope out the hoods.

There were some cheapies in the suburbs, too, but they clearly need a lot of work.  Still seems like a fun project, but maybe you could make a bitcoin community in Warren or something.  Typically better than Detroit...

gotta love the price drop of 30%!

https://i.imgur.com/j6TBhiy.jpg

heh, aside from investing in the worst parts of detroit, there are actual legit investment opportunities in other parts of Michigan right now.

Michigan's great. I bought a relatively new 3bed, 2bath, 2-car garage house in decent condition with full basement, central air, front and back deck, a big horse barn with gated pasture, and even an area for chickens with coop, and 15 acres in MI for ~$60k just a year ago.

Michigan's attractive because property prices are bringing new meaning to "dirt-cheap" like nowhere else in the Midwest, and overall, the state's really not in bad shape at all - just Detroit. It's not like Ohio.  ;D

the biggest proponets against this think we'll all be dead lol ...

Why can't we just have some armed guards outside wearing Bitcoin armour?

It'd be like real-life Minecraft.

Build during the day, and seek shelter at night... rinse, repeat.

This ^^ . I would call this an "adventure" not "bring your family" to my house sort of stuff lol

Yet to read the rest of this thread, but many could be purchased for only a dollar. I came really close to purchasing several in the $100 range, but put that endeavor on hold.

Thanks for that link, bud. I wonder if they could use an endowment from Bitcoin 100?

Before you buy it, make sure you check it out thoroughly. Nobody slashes the price of a house by 30% unless there is something wrong with it. If it wasn't slashed, I would have considered getting a 30 year mortgage to finance the $100 home. But at a 30% deduction, I'm now concerned that a banker wouldn't touch it even if I paid 50% down.

Detroit today looks like when a totally newbie start playing Simcity and does all sort of wrong things  :D

LOL!

I was thinking the same thing a few nights ago when I was scoping out some of the homes on Google maps.

take it from someone who lives in Detroit - stay as far away from the D as possible. there's no good reason to invest a penny, not to mention a second of your time. It's a literal dump and will be for a very long time. It also has the highest murder rate in the country :)

i'd laugh at this, but it's actually just sad

Report: Nearly Half Of Detroiters Can’t Read (http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/05/04/report-nearly-half-of-detroiters-cant-read/)

Where in Detroit do you live?

I have family in the suburbs and it's not that bad... they just say stay away from downtown.

I think a lot of people don't really understand how LARGE Detroit really is...

the point is, there's so MANY better places to live in this world.....life is too short not to live in a place you want to live

really interesting investment opportunity there has to come a point where Detroit will come back to life

If you have a big plan Detroit could be big money, but looking to buy a $10 house and waiting for someone else to revive Detroit is very risky.

Detroit is actually ahead of the rest of the country. It was the first city in the country to host large scale production manufacturing. On the downside, it's been a leader in welfare and socialism the last 50 years, which is why it is collapsing today. The rest of the country (and world) isn't that far behind.

If you want to see the future of USA, take a good look at Detroit. That's what the inevitable result of a nanny state looks like.

The good news is, now is the opportunity to build the right way without government interference. Seems a lot of people have their heads in the right place there:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/44725/this-is-what-budget-cuts-have-done-to-detroit-and-it-s-freaking-awesome
http://www.copblock.org/13054/frustrated-detroit-residents-compete-with-police/

Check out the video on here:
http://libertycrier.com/police-department-in-detroit-stops-responding-to-911-calls-private-firm-fills-the-gap/
 (http://libertycrier.com/police-department-in-detroit-stops-responding-to-911-calls-private-firm-fills-the-gap/)
Can you think of any government police chiefs who talk like this? TMC might not be everything agorists want, but they seem like a huge step in the right direction to me.

just be careful with all of these dirt cheap housing. alot of them come with clauses.

in the UK there were many houses going for 50p (75c). and here were the list of clauses.

1. you are over 18 in full time work.
2. agree to a local government loan of £50k (£75k) to cover restoration costs.
3. all restorations have to be complete and to minimal safe living standards within a 3-6 month period.
4. you have to live in the residence for atleast 5 years before selling.

this ended up as not being a 50p house but after loan interest a £60,000 ($90,000) house.

so definetly look at the fine print.

alot of people thought they could buy it cheap just for land value, bulldoze the house and sell the land or change the purpose of the land from residential to commercial. which they found out later they could not.

Yeah, I think a lot of these have past due utilities and taxes that the buyers will be eligible for, and the residential to commercial is probably valid concern, too.  Zoning laws are a bitch.

But, for the most part these houses are legitimately for sale.  I have about 40 relatives in the suburbs of Detroit and every one of them has said they wouldn't even drive down the majority of those streets if they could avoid it.  One of them is a former Army MP :-\

I'm still going to look in Warren and Sterling Heights.  I gotta get to a colder climate.  I love Texas, but these Summers make me want to kill people.  I swear the summer I spent in Iraq wasn't as bad as this... too humid here.

Apparently there are some anarchist / agorist initiatives in Detroit now.

http://thestateweekly.com/with-detroits-bankruptcy-anarchists-have-begun-project-free-detroit-starting-a-community-2/

Time for Bitcoin?

+ 1

Relatives of BFL investors?

it say no refuns!
they a put that always in them faq thing.
so ok?
yep! my man Josh say it'll be okay.
I'm in!
me to!
and me!
...
got one of them email from that butterfly place. can somes body reads it to me?
we's okay! it form letter. let's smoke some mo shit!

crowd funded homes in detroit, that is ponzi real estate delusion at its finest  :D

http://www.officialpsds.com/images/thumbs/1-Gold-Trophy-psd47711.png