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Title: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: btcdrak on August 22, 2013, 05:32:10 AM From the FTC website:
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule This is a VERY interesting read!! Some of the key points: 1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money. 2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”. 3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC. Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/ Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: dogie on August 22, 2013, 05:39:25 AM They couldn't even refund 50% of the customers, nevermind pay fines. Why do you think they cancelled refunds after I suggested a refund tsunami?
Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: bcp19 on August 22, 2013, 05:44:52 AM From the FTC website: Dude, I count at least 3 threads you missed posting in!http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule This is a VERY interesting read!! Some of the key points: 1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money. 2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”. 3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC. Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/ Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on August 22, 2013, 05:52:36 AM From the FTC website: Dude, I count at least 3 threads you missed posting in!http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule This is a VERY interesting read!! Some of the key points: 1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. By 60 days of not shipping, they were to contact ALL customers and offer to refund their money, if they were not able to contact the customer, then they were required to refund the money. 2) They are also required to refund the money if the customer requests a refund if their product has not shipped. Note this is completely different than BFL’s policy of not refunding because “we are shipping product”. 3) It is also VERY interesting that BFL is exposing themselves to fines of $16,000 per occurrence of breaking the rules. Since they are breaking the rules for EACH and EVERY customer, this alone could be enough to break this company if people start complaining to the FTC. Quoted from http://tarspublishing.com/butterflyrefund/ Dude, don't hold back, what were they? Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on August 22, 2013, 05:57:06 AM With the cutbacks in the federal budget, I'm sure the FTC wouldn't mind an exact $16,000 X 10,000 (conservatively speaking) = $160,000,000 in their coffer. If by a slim chance BFL doesn't have the full amount, the FTC could easily just take all they currently have with the rest owed.
Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: mrb on August 22, 2013, 06:00:35 AM From the FTC website: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule This is a VERY interesting read!! Some of the key points: 1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not. Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: dogie on August 22, 2013, 07:58:23 AM From the FTC website: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule This is a VERY interesting read!! Some of the key points: 1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not. A few months ago does not equal 30 days after preorders were not fulfilled. Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: mrb on August 22, 2013, 08:25:07 AM From the FTC website: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule This is a VERY interesting read!! Some of the key points: 1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not. A few months ago does not equal 30 days after preorders were not fulfilled. Read the legalese. It does not say 30 days. It says 30 days or the time [the vendor] stated. I guess one could argue that after sending the second and subsequent notices of delay, BFL interpreted customers' silence as automatic consent, when they should have automatically refunded. But any customer suing BFL for that would not be acting in good faith. Those who initiated refund requests on their own were refunded, no questions asked, and all those who stayed silent really wanted to remain in line. Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: rammy2k2 on August 22, 2013, 08:32:17 AM "find 16k" ? i want to find 16k too !! :D
Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: BTCscraper on August 22, 2013, 08:43:51 AM From the FTC website: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule This is a VERY interesting read!! Some of the key points: 1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not. A few months ago does not equal 30 days after preorders were not fulfilled. Read the legalese. It does not say 30 days. It says 30 days or the time [the vendor] stated. I guess one could argue that after sending the second and subsequent notices of delay, BFL interpreted customers' silence as automatic consent, when they should have automatically refunded. But any customer suing BFL for that would not be acting in good faith. Those who initiated refund requests on their own were refunded, no questions asked, and all those who stayed silent really wanted to remain in line. The option for either party to cancel the order (and initiate a refund) is a continuing one as long as the seller has not shipped the product. Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: PuertoLibre on August 22, 2013, 08:49:58 AM From the FTC website: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule This is a VERY interesting read!! Some of the key points: 1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not. A few months ago does not equal 30 days after preorders were not fulfilled. Read the legalese. It does not say 30 days. It says 30 days or the time [the vendor] stated. I guess one could argue that after sending the second and subsequent notices of delay, BFL interpreted customers' silence as automatic consent, when they should have automatically refunded. But any customer suing BFL for that would not be acting in good faith. Those who initiated refund requests on their own were refunded, no questions asked, and all those who stayed silent really wanted to remain in line. The option for either party to cancel the order (and initiate a refund) is a continuing one as long as the seller has not shipped the product. Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: Ytterbium on August 22, 2013, 08:57:32 AM So what happens if BFL is late with their monarch card?
If people "upgrade" their orders, then it turns out the monarch is late (which it will be) won't they be entitled to a refund? Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: Unacceptable on August 22, 2013, 09:04:17 AM So what happens if BFL is late with their monarch card? If people "upgrade" their orders, then it turns out the monarch is late (which it will be) won't they be entitled to a refund? Not to worry,BFL has a contingency plan for that................ "Announcing the latest & GREATEST Miner ever!!! 14NM-Preorder NOW by upgradeing your old wore out order!!!!" :D Title: BF Labs Inc. announces that they are now taking pre-orders for 7nm-based miners. Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on August 22, 2013, 09:28:30 AM So what happens if BFL is late with their monarch card? If people "upgrade" their orders, then it turns out the monarch is late (which it will be) won't they be entitled to a refund? Not to worry,BFL has a contingency plan for that................ "Announcing the latest & GREATEST Miner ever!!! 14NM-Preorder NOW by upgradeing your old wore out order!!!!" :D And I took for granted you knew this guy named Sonny Vleisides... http://news.softpedia.com/news/Globalfoundries-7nm-Chips-Set-for-2017-Launch-328849.shtml Quote We've already reported on the 14nm and 10nm plans, and how those processes will have both “pure” and hybrid variants. Now we can safely say that the 7nm node is a sure thing for the future, or rather a goal that Globalfoundries has every intention of eventually reaching. The report held no details on whether or not there would be both pure and hybrid versions, like with 10nm and 14nm. It did make it clear that the processors would enter mass production by 2017 though. If nothing else, Advanced Micro Devices is positioned to always have something new to base its APUs and CPUs on for the next half a decade. Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: Flying Hellfish on August 22, 2013, 11:37:05 AM You guys should read the rule further. BFL has received customer agreement to an "indefinite delay". When you purchase a BFL product you agree to wait 2 months of more. According to the mail order rule this is what a company must do if they ask for and receive an indefinite delay. I've pointed this out in a number of threads and people seem to ignore it. BFL IS FUCKED IF THE FTC DECIDES TO PURSUE THEM.
Not only must they offer cancellations/refunds they must provide the client a statement that they have the right to cancel the order any time until the product ships. So BFL is not only doing the opposite of what they are supposed to, they are also further breaking the mail order rule by telling the client no refunds are possible. They are telling the client the exact opposite of what the FTC tells them they must tell the client. •a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule BFL is playing a very dangerous game ATM, IF the FTC decides to go after them, I would bet dollars to dimes BFL gets their ass handed to them on a platter. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150803.2640 Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: colinistheman on August 22, 2013, 11:43:30 AM It's good to know there's some recourse and hope instead of just being screwed out of thousands of dollars.
Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: Bicknellski on August 22, 2013, 01:00:39 PM I am guessing that BFL hasn't read this part of the FTC guide.
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule Code: What You Must Do If You Learn You Cannot Ship on Time Title: Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: YipYip on August 22, 2013, 01:11:34 PM From the FTC website: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule This is a VERY interesting read!! Some of the key points: 1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order. On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not. Good to hear the continuing PRO-BFL support from you :( Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: btcdrak on August 22, 2013, 02:13:49 PM You guys should read the rule further. BFL has received customer agreement to an "indefinite delay". When you purchase a BFL product you agree to wait 2 months of more. According to the mail order rule this is what a company must do if they ask for and receive an indefinite delay. I've pointed this out in a number of threads and people seem to ignore it. BFL IS FUCKED IF THE FTC DECIDES TO PURSUE THEM. Not only must they offer cancellations/refunds they must provide the client a statement that they have the right to cancel the order any time until the product ships. So BFL is not only doing the opposite of what they are supposed to, they are also further breaking the mail order rule by telling the client no refunds are possible. They are telling the client the exact opposite of what the FTC tells them they must tell the client. •a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule BFL is playing a very dangerous game ATM, IF the FTC decides to go after them, I would bet dollars to dimes BFL gets their ass handed to them on a platter. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=150803.2640 Right, so it's time to encourage everyone who was denied a refund to file an FTC complain now. Could someone from the US make a FAQ on how to do it so we can make it as easy as possible for everyone to file a complaint. Let's teach BFL a lesson they wont forget. This will make big news too. Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: ionstorm on August 22, 2013, 04:11:41 PM Very informative, thanks for the share, will keep this in mind if I decide to ever refund from bfl.
Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: xzempt on August 22, 2013, 04:45:18 PM lol.... the chances of a Monarch now seem about as likely as me turning dirt into gold.....
Government needs all the money they can get! I expect chains to be on the doors at BFL by the end of September Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: Noogsy on August 22, 2013, 05:06:32 PM File an FTC Complaint. :o
It's easy! FTC.gov - consumer - look for a "complaint assistant" - klick it - fill a few forms - done. BFL should become a phrase. Like "Burnt, Fuck**, Lied to" Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: btcdrak on August 22, 2013, 05:31:57 PM File an FTC Complaint. :o It's easy! FTC.gov - consumer - look for a "complaint assistant" - klick it - fill a few forms - done. BFL should become a phrase. Like "Burnt, Fuck**, Lied to" How to video: http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/media/video-0054-how-file-complaint Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: btcdrak on August 22, 2013, 05:35:07 PM File an FTC Complaint. :o It's easy! FTC.gov - consumer - look for a "complaint assistant" - klick it - fill a few forms - done. BFL should become a phrase. Like "Burnt, Fuck**, Lied to" How to video: http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/media/video-0054-how-file-complaint It's specifically here: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ and you can complain no matter what country you are from. Everyone: Start filing complaints so the FTC sit up and take notice. Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: Trongersoll on August 22, 2013, 09:43:52 PM lol.... the chances of a Monarch now seem about as likely as me turning dirt into gold..... Actually, there are companies turning dirt into gold. The gold content in the dirt is so small that they just dig the dirt and process it to get the gold out of it. Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on August 23, 2013, 05:05:50 AM lol.... the chances of a Monarch now seem about as likely as me turning dirt into gold..... Actually, there are companies turning dirt into gold. The gold content in the dirt is so small that they just dig the dirt and process it to get the gold out of it. Actually, in some places of the country, you can go to Ace Hardware and buy bags of sand to process the gold out, earning about $10 net per bag. Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: Bicknellski on August 25, 2013, 07:21:31 AM So...
Anyone seen movement on these fines? What is the process involved for a fine like this take actually be levied? BFL = Shady. Say it with me now.... BFL = Shady. Title: Re: BFL could be fined $16,000 for each product the fail to ship Post by: btcdrak on September 17, 2013, 04:24:17 AM I got $5000 refunded: Someone has posted a new method that get's a refund from paypal within just a few hours with one email https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295187 - I got my $5,000 back the same day I mailed. BFL are known at very high level at Paypal now so this is a slam dunk refund.
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