Bitcoin Forum

I have read some posts and comments by senior members related on how the futures on Bitcoin are controlling the whole crypto-currencies market. Do you understand the effects? What your view?

Futures somehow contributed to the reason why bitcoim had a dip recently but those senior members are wrong when they said that it controls the whole cryptocurrency market. No one can gain total control ever crypto, even fat boys from wall street or even bill gates can't no matter how much money they spend. If they really did spend money in order to do that, crypto will only be controlled temporarily.

They may not control but if they hold majority of the cryptocurrency, they could become a big factor on how bitcoin would scatter around the globe. Because the lesser bitcoin your have the more you would adjust on transactions and more likely to be frustrated by the underground rules of cryptocurrency.

I think Wall Street is only about how to make profit and if BTC can make a profit for them nothing will change even for small users.Last price decrease was an opportunity for everyone to buy low and sell high.Some say that price decrease may be related with first BTC futures expiration,so we will see when next futures is expire in January 29. whether it would have the effect on the price.

Personally I do not like that Wall Street is involved in anything regarding BTC,they have thrown the whole world to the knees in 2008 and destroyed millions of human destinys around the world.I hope that BTC is strong enough to survive even them.

I don't think so in any market especially in cryptocurrency their will always be whales who are the first movers of the trend. And some of this whales are from the wall street what we can do is to ride the trend they are creating as they are not the only ones who can benefit the price action of something. Yes some might be affected by the price change of Bitcoin but if you know how to trade then you won't be far out of them. Technical Analysis is what they are also doing they are just the ones who are making the move first.

Futures in bitcoin would not kill it but rather it would exist in parallel like oil futures,gold futures,etc.It would not have any direct impact over bitcoin prices.But it would have a slight effect over the minds of investors to decide whether to buy or sell bitcoins at the prevailing price or to just hold.Its already predicted that futures in bitcoin would reduce its volatility but it has not happened.

If those guys have enough money to buy like a shit load of bitcoin,  and dumping it all in one. but yeah they not gonna do that cause bassicaly they throw away they profit.

Bitcoin is strongest and most supported crypto of them all, and because of that its no wonder why it have great impact on whole crypto-market. But to think that if bitcoin dies everything else would die too, well that is just wrong and absurd. Altcoin prices are tied to bitcoins, but if something happens to bitcoin and for some reason bitcoin dies (which is near to impossible), some altcoin will succeed it and will continue as number one crypto. Crypto market is tied to whole world, and i do not think that either Wall Street or some other organization can kill cryptos.

Hi,

I sincerely hope they can't. Just because I think that bitcoin is designed to prevent such behaviours.

But of course, if some people (whether they are wall street boys or not) can have control of many bitcoins, well it may result in control. Therefore possible "manipulation" of prices and trends.

Still, I think that, especially regarding Wall Street boys, they have much more profits accessible much more easily than bitcoin.

It's sure that they can't control it, but I hope they won't be able to kill it. But I don't think they really care about Bitcoin.

In fact, they are doing it right now, not only Wall Street, but a lot of banks are trying to do massive FUD about bitcoin (the TV / Radio too) But this is just matter of time until everything recovers back again.
A lot of people are shorting bitcoin positions right now.

Not all the time, but occasionally when the price of Bitcoin crashes down, the altcoin market also drops most of its value. The reason behind that in my opinion is that most of those coins are traded against Bitcoin and that is why when the price drops, they drop accordingly. I can be wrong though.
There are also some people having a lot of coins and manipulating the markets every now and then to get any amount of profit out of the pump and dump.

I heard that there are some groups of dumpsters and pumpsters that initially controls the market by increasing a certain coin like bitcoin, then it will be a drooling nest for eager investors to put their hopes on the line by putting all of their money resulting to have a drastic upward movements to its price day by day, then when the pump is ripe, this selfish whales will dump all their coins by selling them all, common and dirty strategy to manipulate the market, well its still possible that the reason for the decrease was because of their doing besides the price correction and even worse by the wall street guys doing.

Yes you were right some of them are manipulating the outcome of the price and we called them 'whales' those people had a bunch of money to manipulate everything in order for them to gain a certain profit by just pumping and dumping into almost everything. Yet it is a good deal to buy Bitcoin though since it has started to go down a bit but i wonder when will it last.

IMO its all part and parcel of the paradigm shift of bitcoin transitioning from being mainly a store of value to being more an instrument of speculation. HODL is recognized for long term stability and lower volatility, being associated with lower risk than speculative markets, which are prone towards being leveraged and carrying greater risk in the hope of turning short term profit.

Speculative markets would seem to sacrifice long term planning for short term gain. This can contribute towards uncertainty, imbalance and other negative implications in markets and economies.

That's the base perspective as far as bitcoin's recent shift from being a store of long term value towards becoming more an instrument of speculation, afaik.

Market manipulation is very likely, in fact way back 2014 when mt. Gox was the largest exchange, some investigations revealed bots are certainly controlling trades. Now, what makes someone think that wall street guys can't manipulate the market?

There's somewhat manipulation or control would be there in all currency related market but I doubt whether this would be applicable to cryptocurrencies. May be the fat boys buy large volume of bitcoins and then makes a large sharing unit to control bitcoin, I'm not too sure whether they can intervene directly in to manipulation of prices in bitcoin profits.

They have enough cash to do it (if they ever want to join the trend on cryptocurrency). We have been seeing wild movements of bitcoin and other alts lately but it doesn't mean it is because of them.

Those manipulators from wall street may not bring any big impact into bitcoin ecosystem or it is already to late for anyone to control the bitcoin price levels. This is because when bitcoin prices are increasing any whales or manipulators will lose their controlling power slowly. Same way bitcoin is being traded in almost all the countries and we cannot expect one set of exchange people to impact price in greater levels.

In coming months, we can expect more distribution of bitcoins into common people which will be aiding for sustaining bitcoin prices.

We know very bitcoin and all the other crypto currencies are completely decentralised and they don’t have control of anyone. If you got bucks then you can shake the base of these currency at any time, but to make that happen we do need to win in the groups and nothing can be done all alone. If the Wall Street would have been cheap inventor then they might have taken the risks to manipulate this market and kill the profits. But who knows why that did not happen yet and if it is not happening then they might be taking the interest in the bitcoin with some serious up fronts!

It has just been a month since Bitcoin futures was launched by CME. Is the current variations in Bitcoin price a result of this? It's quite difficult to say. There are contradictory views, people who see Bitcoin futures as a mainstream approach and the others who believe it might have a negative impact on the Bitcoin market, manipulation/shorting. The dynamics of Bitcoin economics is different from other assets/derivatives, a new asset class, so IMO, maybe in short-term big Wall Street players might be able to influence the price, but in the long-term there are a lot of factors involved.

The thing is that volumes are relatively low and easy to manipulate and most of the alts seem to be too correlated with Bitcoin so is one ring to rule them all.

That is more or less ok, if they invest first so be it. The problem with futures is that is makes it worth to purely manipulate the market and make profit from it.

Well, as for what I think about this- I think it might be having effect on the price rate of Bitcoin, but not much. We’ve been through these kind of issues before, and I don’t think it does happen for long. This is not even the first time it is happening, it has happened many times and not once.

I agree with you, it is quite dangerous and it is prone to create many problems for the regular Joe out there. I wish it did not happen, but it is there so we need to find adaptation and survival strategies. Hodling is not goin to get us out of the issue.

Any ideas?

Probably not, but they attempt to)) even in Wall Street Journal they describe cryptocurrencies as non-lasting phenomenon, wide-spread and developed in Asia, as well as bound to crash one day. They say only Asian counries are interested in these thechnologies, opposing more conservative West

Everyone wants to make profit, they will join the revolution

They can not intervene directly, at least that is what i think. Lets say that biggest holders decide to sell all their coins. Problem with that is, there are really low chances that all of them would agree and on that. Another problem would be, who would buy all those coins and for which price at the end. So yes they could manipulate bitcoins price a bit, but that is very hard to do in the same time. I am not economy expert so i could be wrong, its just my logic here. From my point of view, because bitcoin is decentralized that makes it hard for individuals to manipulate it.

Yes bitcoin is the decentralized digital currency.So it's value or price is not control by the wall Street fat boy.It may slightly control by the investors and traders.But it was only the temporary control of bitcoin.

That would largely depend on the types of futures. Unlike Bitcoin, oil and gold futures are mostly physically settled. When a futures contract that is physically delivered expires, it requires the holder to either deliver the commodity or take delivery of that commodity from the exchange. Cash-settled futures are not deliverable. Bitcoin futures are only cash settled, and no delivery of real bitcoins is required when the contract expires. There is hardly any reason to think that such futures can affect Bitcoin prices. Personally, I'd rather think of them as sort of betting on the future prices. It could affect the prices only via manipulation.

For example, market makers could see how many contracts have been bought, and they could deliberately crash the Bitcoin price. Then the buyers would have to fix losses on the contract expiry. Conversely, if too many contracts have been sold, they could artificially push the Bitcoin prices higher, and thus reap profits again. Then wash, rinse, repeat. But it makes sense only if there is some volume in these contracts, otherwise it is simply not worth it.

People do not have to accept the fact that someone drives a cryptocurrency. It can turn cryptocurrency into the same asset as Fiat. The unification of the entire community in a common goal can withstand any attempt to establish control over the cryptocurrency. But people are too greedy to understand this. Perhaps bitcoin appeared very early in order to be understood.

I think people are overrating the impact of the futures market in the actual bitcoin price. They are not trading the underlying, one some promises, this doesn't matter in bitcoin.

The pump we saw was due idiots FOMOing, and the dump we saw was due idiots panic selling. Idiots: people that see Bitcoin on the news but don't have any deeper thoughts about it and why it matters. I believe the market is at least 50% idiots at any rate, and these were the ones that pumped the price to the last peak and these are the ones that got shaken out in the last bottom.

If the price holds, I believe we may start going for an all time high in the next month again, this time, having shed all the previous idiots that are here to make some bucks but aren't here for the long term as they have no idea what they are buying.

They can't kill Bitcoin but I think with huge capital they can easily control the price of Bitcoin. They can make Bitcoin price dump or pump as they want to make as much as profit they can :). For now, this case still can't happen cause the US government still ban all activity related to cryptocurrency in their country so for now rich people in Wall Street still don't have chance to do it :))

You are right when you say that most of people that deal with bitcoin are not so deep into it, and knows nothing about it. But i think that has good sides too. Because if not for them price would not fluctuate so much, and we could not earn money from that fluctuation. I do not say that i would like to see price of bitcoin fluctuate forever, it would be even better if it stayed in one place (or not fluctuate so much) and we could start using bitcoin as an currency as its suppose to be used. In time people will see their mistakes, and everything will come to its place. Until than we can continue to make some small earnings from difference in price.

If they invest a large amount of money, they can certainly affect the price in some way.

Why would they want to kill profits? Wall street investors have no loyalty the only thing they care is about making a lot of money and if they can use bitcoin or any other asset they are going to do it, so it does not make sense to want to do that for greedy people like them.

I think that those "fat boys" are interested themselves in bitcoin because it has high volatility and they could make much higher profits here

Dude the wall street people are rich. They bleed money. One such investor of the wall street is 10 times richer than a bitcoin whale and not a lot of bitcoin whales exist when the numbers are compared with Wall Street investors.
The futures have hardly been out and as I heard South Korea is planning to introduce to such futures, we may see something different here. I haven't done much research about futures and how exactly they work,but in such a short period of time, Wall Street people may not be able to gain much, but they may influence people in their favor, so in the long run a lot needs to be considered.

There's somewhat manipulation or control would be there in all currency related market but I doubt whether this would be applicable to cryptocurrencies.

Yes bitcoin futures has made unstable changes to occur in bitcoin prices which were not found before. Bitcoin has seen a ATH within a month followed by a sudden downfall to 10,000 dollars after the launch of bitcoin futures. At first, the Wallstreet fat boys considered bitcoin as their main rival but then when they were not able to stop its progress, they just changed their strategy and started to get involved in bitcoin.We would have to just wait and see its effect over bitcoin after a considerable period of time.

Fluctuations would happen no matter what, it just takes a single whale to decide to enter a position to pump the price or dump it, but yes, without all the idiots to push this initial movement into either direction would be way harder to create these situations of irrational FOMOing and irrational dumping, so we can take advantage of it.

The problem is we can't never know when a top is a top and a bottom is a bottom, only guesstimate. It's a form of gambling eventually. I believe in buying dips and holding long term, never selling. Guessing tops is too difficult. Even if you buy what was looking like a bottoming dip and it goes 3000 points lower, it will eventually rebound above your entry price, long term BTC is going only higher, so why risk losing your position selling and having to deal with endless KYC exchange nonsense to boot.

I have read that about some vague concerns because bitcoin futures are settled in cash.
It might be possible for investors to push around the futures contracts at the close simply by aggressively buying and selling.

In the end, holding the contract from the opening to the close was a losing proposition. These contracts opened for bidding at $20,000 on Decemebr 10th.
But on Tuesday, bitcoin was sitting right around 10000$, a fall of 50 percent.

I have think along this line for quite some time and I think they can actually determine the price of bitcoin and already they have started that already. If we should be truth to ourself we would all agree that futures has affected bitcoin price and crypto currencies in particular very well and the wallstreet guys are going to use this strategy to control bitcoin price.

This may be true, since most of the people who enter the world of cryptocurrencies did so after learning of the great rise that btc had in its fluctuation, but if then nobody wants to invest after all the restrictions that it has received in the last days is because of the fear that the other cryptocurrencies will also be sanctioned.

That seems like so true because we all are experiencing the dip of a kind that we never saw before , but over should remember that whatever they did was in fist and had no direct effect on the bitcoins and it controlled bitcoins till a part only because over must remember that they don't own bitcoins nor do they own such a big part of it that it can be influenced to the extent that could prove detrimental.

I don't know where you have read about that, but know that not everything on the internet is truth, and sometime its only part truth. Buying and selling bitcoin aggressively can have effect on its price, but in that case we talk about insanely big sums of coins and money. No one is insane enough to invest their money just to lose it on lowering bitcoins price, that would be bad investment.

I don't know of which contract you speak off, but so far we have seen that if you hold your bitcoins for longer terms you will made positive profit for sure. When we talk about dumping of bitcoin and lowering its price we must know that it happens from time to time. Because it is only natural to assume that fall of price is coming after tremendous rise in its price. In that moment price of bitcoin had risen from around $9000 to $16000+ in like less than two weeks, and that is really fast even for bitcoin. Now you can see why we could expect drop after that fast rising. Also we must not forget newbie holders who sell when they see even smallest drop in its price. All serious investors who know how things work in bitcoins world, could see drop coming and would make calculated move to sell or hold. Bitcoin is not as simple as you said, its not just ups and downs.

Wall street boys were big whales. This will let the market get manipulated with the moves and the wall street boys gain the best profit out of it. The large scale investment won't let them encounter loss, but the moves that make will cause drastic changes with the common users holdings.

They have been trying to let people know that Bitcoin does not have any value. Funny that most of them keep BTC. Bitcoin has many millions of supporters and followers, so Wall Street guys cannot change anything.

Have you been following the news lately? The futures on bitcoin have already changed the panorama. The current descending / flat tendency of many alts is in connection with the big boys.

No wall street boys wont be able to kill bitcoin.

Instead they will do their best to make profit on it. They actually already are. So totally not in their interest to kill it but to tame it  8)

The real game is always played by the big whales. The market is influenced by their moves because they make investments in real large amounts. Big investors are the reason behind the change in value of anything. Small investors have negligible rather zero effect on digital market. Everyone tries to mold the situation in such a way that he gets the most benefit. Whales do that and there is nothing wrong in it.

Its not possible for them to kill the profits of bitcoin because there is no bridge between the two worlds. They will always keep their assets limited to the real world trading and won't waste a penny on the crypto currencies. Why do you think they will go and waste their times in the crypto if they are having million dollar hand in the Wall Street itself.

But if we just imagine that they thought to buy lots of bitcoin and then dump the whole thing for cheap then I'm sure they can do it in the first place and thus taking out all the fun out of it.  :P

So the effects would be disastrous according to me and lets hope they don't interfere with our business and keep the Wall Street dollar bill of themselves only.

Yep, that is my view too, they will use a highly leveraged weapon such as the futures to dominate the underlying asset. Bitcoin now is in different hands I think

To be honest, mate you don't make any sense. What do you know about wall street boys? And who are these wall street boys on the first place? In my knowledge about people in wall street, they're those people that knows everything what to do in order for them to have lots of profit. Also that's not enough reason and mean that they're also whales.

The big there is redundant by the way. I mean whales are already big.


After learning? Well who said that the whales are from the wall street, you might want to enlighten us with this, like an article maybe? I know that they are the biggest investors and spenders but, how did you knew?

And what about restriction? The only thing that worry us is that, the number of countries that bans cryptocurrencies increase.

     Well, the reason as to why you have been seeing a lot about it lately is because it is a possibility that we can never really ignore. Although those things that you have been reading are just speculations, they really can do happen. Considering the amount of money and power that these Wall Street whales possess, they can pretty much do almost everything or whatever they want if they ever decided that they actually wanted to do so. Yes, it may be something that we normal people can only see in movies, but we cannot deny fact that truly, money does make anyone who has a lot of it be able to have access to things that most people are restricted, have greater privileges, bend the law, and so much more. Which is why I think that this speculation is pretty logical since money is the main thing that runs the crypto world. But no matter what happens, I really don't think there will be anything that can stop me from being in the crypto world. Not unless it becomes illegal or becomes an exchange for my life of course. lol

Recently the value of cryptocurrencies is going low but it doesn't mean it was controlled but that is his process. They cannot kill easily bitcoin because it is in demand and the process is in progress because we can determine the value of bitcoin to peoples life.

They can just create silly fuss around Bitcoin. Some people will believe them and rush to sell BTC. It might be a negative effect.

I am convinced that yes future bitcoin contracts were created solely to better control it

In recent years the entry of the mainstream world of finance into bitcoin and the cryptocurrency market in general has been eagerly awaited, with the hope that it will inject a greater liquidity into this incipient ecosystem. But futures contracts that are now registered from Wall Street, can be used to speculate, since these futures are not simple contracts between sellers and buyers but they are listed on open markets and anyone can buy and sell them. For example, if an analyst thinks that coffee is going to shoot up in price and futures are low, he can buy them to sell when the market gives him the reason.

They certainly can put a hurt on it in the short term, as we are seeing. However, in the long run, I believe it is unstoppable and will ultimately move higher. Much higher.

A future, in most cases, is often like a bet. I promise to buy x amount of something within x time with the hope that what you paid now for it has gone up, while the seller sells it down (and therefore closes the purchase now at a higher price) . A struggle to see who is the smarter of the two, although it can also be used as insurance (so as not to be left empty). Futures contracts can also be made on interest rates (which reached the general public in the form of mortgage clips). In summary, although potentially profitable futures are potentially dangerous and that is one of the reasons why bitcoin has been affected.

certainly affect the course of bitcoin, to some extent. But I think that soon everything will go up.

There will be next idiots because without them the price wouldn't move up a dollar. So you should be kind of grateful to them because you sell to them when the price is high and buy from them when the price is low. But as recent developments have clearly shown, they are not the only players in the crypto playground, and it may take a little longer before we actually start going for a new all time high this or next month.

Bitcoin is the first cryptocurrency everyone knows, and I also think that in the future Bitcoin will be another cryptocurrency benchmarks like US Dollar, Bitcoin will always be strong.

They aren't killing Bitcoin, they're manipulating the price to make it lower and buy, when there will be a perfect moment. The question is - how far will they go. But there's nothing to worry about, as they'll buy BTC - the price will begin to increase rapidly, the side effect is panic selling, but it doesn't influence the market that much.

Its all about the demand and the strength of investments into crypto coins including bitcoins. Such corrections do hold back the new investors to move forward, but investors who do know that this correction is normal and its the nature of crypto currencies, they do utilize the current sitiation to invest and buy more coins so that they know that are going to profit themselves more. 

I do not think that is the fault of the futures market to me this seems bitcoin doing what it has always done, the price can be influenced and this is just another time to remember this, so you either keep holding your coins and you sell them for a bad price and lose money by doing that.

Your analysis misses the fact that it is very unlikely that Bitcoin will ever have x100 or x1000 returns in the future. The new alts and the volume of the market make it impossible, even if widespread adoption was reached all the sudden.

The wall street investment will have a definite impact in the price of bitcoin on how much it can go higher and expect the fall to be harder and since majority of the investors are big time whales ,it is not an big issue for them to control the direction of the market and there will be profit booking that could dent the market ,anything is possible with them,hope that the coins are well distributed and let there be a time when no one could manipulate the market.

Hoping for avoiding market manipulation wont work anytime since its really possible for bitcoin to be manipulated once big players would able to join in specially into those wallet street boys that do have really fat wallets. People can freely buy on what they want and accumulate bitcoin as much as they want since they do have the capability on such thing this is why its normal to think that price manipulation or market movement is really there.

cyrptocurrency market is so little for Wall Street boys.if they wan it they can rule the that market too maybe they does.So I think they will not cut the three which gives apples

The wall street boys don´t take much care on cutting or not cutting the trees, whether they have apples or not, as long as they can make profit, they will kill squirrels if necessary.

They aren't here to kill BTC, their goal is continuous profit and you can't milk the cow if you kill it and eat it, even though short term gains might look promising (steaks are yummy) milking for a couple years is far more profitable and in the end you can have a steak anyway ;).
Jokes aside, they will put big money in once the bull trend becomes confirmed. If we break 9500 you're most likely going to see a crazy rally again, but for now we can as well go back down to retest the lows.


They made their money on this correction and there's not a lot they can do now as the support at $5000 is huge.

i think thats was right about speculation if they had a major bitcoin in their pocket
but it seems make sense if they selling something in deepweb some illegal stuff (just my speculation)

some of this whales are from the wall street what we can do is to ride the trend they are creating as they are not the only ones who can benefit the price action of something. Yes, some might be affected by the price change of Bitcoin but if you know how to trade then you won't be far out of them. This is because when bitcoin prices are increasing any whales or manipulators will lose their controlling power slowly. It's quite difficult to say. There are contradictory views, people who see Bitcoin futures as a mainstream approach and the others who believe it might have a negative impact on the Bitcoin market, manipulation/shorting.  Let's say that biggest holders decide to sell all their coins. Problem with that is, there are really low chances that all of them would agree and on that. Another problem would be, who would buy all those coins and for which price at the end. So yes they could manipulate bitcoins price a bit, but that is very hard to do at the same time.

Well it is clear that they are in it right now.
But it shouldn't be a problem if they achieve that because bitcoin isn't meant to make profit.
The value in bitcoin is a decentralized system , so the average joe won't get screwed by their government any more.

From my point of view, trading in futures did not affect the price of a bitcoins.
It's all about the currency in which bitcoin is nominated - USDT (Tether).
Problems with it are the main factor that influenced the price drop bitcoin.

The Wall street fat Boys may have large significant effect on Bitcoin profits since they starts the move but can never kill the whole profits in all ramification.. This can even only be to some extent, the total control can never be saddled with them. Bitcoin deregulation also has a big role in this effect, where only manipulation is what these big whales can do just to some extent since Bit coin is not just traded in the countries where they belong alone.

suppose till the crypto market is still not in the trillions capital,
 WallSt can manipulate it for their need, but later supose it will be not so easy)

Yes, the cryptocurrency market is too small compared to other financial markets in the world so it is vulnerable to wealthy investors but next year when the size of the market grows stronger Surely that will not happen again. I believe in the next five years the cryptocurrency market will be capitalized in other major markets such as Forex.