Title: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: orangeferrari3 on January 22, 2018, 02:21:57 PM I read an article explaining the entire process of the lightning network. Only two transactions will be verified. The first one to open a channel and the second one to close the channel. But what about the transactions within the channel? Nobody is verifying those transactions. One member out of two could falsify a transaction within the channel. Am i missing something here?
Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: DannyHamilton on January 22, 2018, 03:33:52 PM I read an article explaining the entire process of the lightning network. Only two transactions will be verified. The first one to open a channel and the second one to close the channel. Only two transactions will be on the bitcoin blockchain. All transactions will be verified. But what about the transactions within the channel? Nobody is verifying those transactions. The channel participants will be verifying those transactions. One member out of two could falsify a transaction within the channel. Only if the other member isn't paying attention (or doesn't run software that pays attention). Am i missing something here? Yes. I suggest you skip the articles that don't know what they're talking about and seek out documentation written by the experts. Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: aleksej996 on January 22, 2018, 11:53:04 PM You are missing a lot, pretty much the whole point of LN.
You can read more about this in this 3 part article https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/understanding-the-lightning-network-part-building-a-bidirectional-payment-channel-1464710791/ (https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/understanding-the-lightning-network-part-building-a-bidirectional-payment-channel-1464710791/) Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: Anti-Cen on January 23, 2018, 06:53:34 PM Lightning network is well complicated and has lots of code to deal with transactions within
the network so if a banking hub (in theory) goes bad you can broadcast to the BTC network to get you money back See white paper https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf what people are not getting about lightning is that just because you deposit your money at the bank in a ledger it is not the banks money (You can get it back) and the bank has to forward it own money out from a separate ledger on to the next bank before Alice gets paid See http://forum.cryptolivecap.com/posts/t31-Lightning-Network Dave is this case is the bank or watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: Kakmakr on January 24, 2018, 06:55:20 AM Lightning network is well complicated and has lots of code to deal with transactions within the network so if a banking hub (in theory) goes bad you can broadcast to the BTC network to get you money back See white paper https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf what people are not getting about lightning is that just because you deposit your money at the bank in a ledger it is not the banks money (You can get it back) and the bank has to forward it own money out from a separate ledger on to the next bank before Alice gets paid See http://forum.cryptolivecap.com/posts/t31-Lightning-Network Dave is this case is the bank or watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g Why would you want to use the hubs, if you can open channels with these merchants directly? Or am I missing something here? Disclaimer : I am still getting my head around the technology and how it will be implemented. Also, would there not be multiple alternative routes via other channels to these merchants, if you are not satisfied with the hub you are using? These hubs will also be inter-connected, right? ShIt, I still have to learn a lot about this. ^hmmmmm^ Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: orangeferrari3 on January 26, 2018, 12:11:32 PM Lightning network is well complicated and has lots of code to deal with transactions within Basically, it's in a pool. It can always be taken out of the pool at any time. It only stays in the pool to make things faster within the channel. Is that right?the network so if a banking hub (in theory) goes bad you can broadcast to the BTC network to get you money back See white paper https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf what people are not getting about lightning is that just because you deposit your money at the bank in a ledger it is not the banks money (You can get it back) and the bank has to forward it own money out from a separate ledger on to the next bank before Alice gets paid See http://forum.cryptolivecap.com/posts/t31-Lightning-Network Dave is this case is the bank or watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: ahmad21 on January 26, 2018, 03:04:52 PM Lightning network is well complicated and has lots of code to deal with transactions within Basically, it's in a pool. It can always be taken out of the pool at any time. It only stays in the pool to make things faster within the channel. Is that right?the network so if a banking hub (in theory) goes bad you can broadcast to the BTC network to get you money back See white paper https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf what people are not getting about lightning is that just because you deposit your money at the bank in a ledger it is not the banks money (You can get it back) and the bank has to forward it own money out from a separate ledger on to the next bank before Alice gets paid See http://forum.cryptolivecap.com/posts/t31-Lightning-Network Dave is this case is the bank or watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: Colorblind on January 26, 2018, 03:04:54 PM I read an article explaining the entire process of the lightning network. Only two transactions will be verified. The first one to open a channel and the second one to close the channel. But what about the transactions within the channel? Nobody is verifying those transactions. One member out of two could falsify a transaction within the channel. Am i missing something here? You are the one who will verify those transactions. If you trust yourself it won't matter - in case of dispute occurs you can always post latest valid transaction on-chain. The downside is you have to monitor blockchain to be able to spot someone posting old channel state and counter it. Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: Kprawn on January 26, 2018, 03:36:29 PM The process to guard against this can be automated. Some people can also be assigned as gatekeepers to monitor these
actions and to prevent this. {manual action} I do not know how practical it would be to monitor channels 24/7 but it is a much better scaling method than simply increasing Block sizes. We are still in the very early stages of this technology, and solutions for this can still be developed. ;) Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: Destrodream on January 27, 2018, 10:05:50 AM Does this all means I have to maintain 100% uptime if I want to make sure nobody posted channel old state to the blockchain?
Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: Anti-Cen on January 27, 2018, 01:01:54 PM Why would you want to use the hubs, if you can open channels with these merchants directly? Or am I missing something here? Also, would there not be multiple alternative routes via other channels to these merchants, if you are not satisfied with the hub you are using? These hubs will also be inter-connected, right? ShIt, I still have to learn a lot about this. ^hmmmmm^ forced to use hubs or else you could get ten time $20 in transactions fees See https://lnmainnet.gaben.win/ I am sure banking hub fees will start of low just like has happened with Bitcoin and they we know what will happen once people buy in to using the banking system Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: Anti-Cen on January 27, 2018, 01:12:45 PM You are the one who will verify those transactions. If you trust yourself it won't matter - in case of dispute occurs you can always post latest valid transaction on-chain. The downside is you have to monitor blockchain to be able to spot someone posting old channel state and counter it. Bankers will be running more specialized versions of the wallets than we have that can morph in to hubs unless of course our wallets come with lots of buttons and input boxes because the protocol allows complicated transactions that you and me won't understand. Open a channel and they make you agree to letting the bank take a up front fee to cover the BTC mining fee even if they owe you money or else the channel will be closed or locked using the dispute procedure that can take days to sort out. it's like saving money in a bank without getting to read the terms and conditions and that's without LN transaction fees being dumped on you. Don't agree at any stage and the BTC miners will love the $20 you keep sending them to settle the account on the block-chain Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: DooMAD on January 27, 2018, 02:37:16 PM Open a channel and they make you agree to letting the bank take a up front fee to cover the BTC mining fee even if they owe you money or else the channel will be closed or locked using the dispute procedure that can take days to sort out. it's like saving money in a bank without getting to read the terms and conditions and that's without LN transaction fees being dumped on you. Don't agree at any stage and the BTC miners will love the $20 you keep sending them to settle the account on the block-chain "Make you" how, exactly? You still have full control over what funds you do and don't choose to send within a payment channel. Do you have any evidence to support any of this conjecture? And why do you keep saying "bank"? No one is forcing you to transact with banks. You can open a channel with anyone you like. Or you can still send funds the conventional way. From my understanding, it's entirely your preference if you want to "hop" through a number of people to reach someone or just deal directly with the person you want to deal with. It's just that if you both already have "Lightning-ready" funds locked on the blockchain, it may well prove to be cheaper to go through the other people than is it to lock yet more funds on layer 0 to send directly. Long story short, go with whichever option is most cost effective. But the simple fact is, you have options. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do anything you don't want to do.
I suggest you read this if you haven't already (https://coincenter.org/entry/what-is-the-lightning-network). It's not overly technical and explains things pretty well. Title: Re: Lightning network - fast and low fees Post by: Anti-Cen on January 27, 2018, 11:53:40 PM Do you have any evidence to support any of this conjecture Sure pleanty so would you like the LN white paper https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf or the network map as it is running now https://lnmainnet.gaben.win/ or maybe you want to watch it on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYHFrf5ci_g but if you want the noddy Bob and Alice version then here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrr_zPmEiME Quote "And why do you keep saying "bank"? No one is forcing you to transact with banks. You can open a channel with anyone you like. Or you can still send funds the conventional way. From my understanding, it's entirely your preference if you want to "hop" through a number of people to reach someone or just deal directly with the person you want to deal with. It's just that if you both already have "Lightning-ready" funds locked on the blockchain, it may well prove to be cheaper to go through the other people than is it to lock yet more funds on layer 0 to send directly. if you want to live off grid then you don't need banking but for the rest of us we do and what we are seeing with LN is ye old problem-reaction-solution and fees that have already gone sky high so you don't need a big IQ to work out where we are going. Quote Long story short, go with whichever option is most cost effective. But the simple fact is, you have options. No one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do anything you don't want to do. Sure felt like "gun to your head" last month when the miners here got $120 from me or did you not know that fees were like $0.10 a year ago and peeked at $55 per transaction. |