Bitcoin Forum

We are having a major press hit in Germany today, 4 pages in Germany's most important IT-magazine, the "c't".

Very high quality journalism and I did get a huge say in this, explaining the independance from banks and governments and why I see this as a good thing.

The shocking statement comes on page three, from the guy who runs the Fidor bank, now partner of Bitcoin.de

"The trend is rather going towards an adoption of the still young Bitcoin-ecosystem to the existing legal guidelines. ... Because in the end it is about protecting the money of the customers and to guarantee the stability of the economy."

HE IS TALKING ABOUT THE PROTOCOL.

A BANKER WANTS TO SEE THE BITCOIN PROTOCOL CHANGED SO THAT BANKS CAN PROTECT PEOPLE'S MONEY AND STABILIZE THE ECONOMY.

A BANKER SAYS THAT.

IN THE YEAR 2013!

And that's why people running huge Bitcoin businesses depending on the goodwill of governments should be nowhere where they can have any influence on the protocoll whatsoever.

Joe

I couldn't agree with you more.  Sadly myself and others are experiencing some major issues with Campbx.  I know in the old days people that did wrong were dealt with by the public...  What options do people have when we don't want regulation but, companies like CampBX do this -> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278973.0

Real regulation was intended to allow a free market to flourish, the "regulation" we're seeing by most govts is actually "competition elimination".  I know this and many other intelligent folks do as well...  Yet without exercising quite literally violence against someone, what recourses do we have?  One thing to consider in "recourse" is that a lot of people have worked very hard for their money that the scammers/fraudsters/banksters try to steal.... Again what can be suggested as a course of action?

Personally I can think about a preventive measure so it doesn't even have to go that far: Make a thread/webpage/whatever that has the exchanges for example listed, and this central spot is simply for posting info positive or negative plus a person's comments on the experience.  Over time a rating will become clear as to who the best exchange is.  In fact as I write this I think I'll get something like this going because of the evil, disregard that scammers and co. have for people.

Anyways, keep fighting the good fight.

well, if they want to have control over people's money "SO THAT BANKS CAN PROTECT PEOPLE'S MONEY AND STABILIZE THE ECONOMY", just tell them to use EUR or USD or other fiat in those cases. Simple as that.   :)

Uh I can't really see that statement as being about the Bitcoin Protocol. He's talking about the economy, most likely that concerns exchanges, merchants and such.
Still remember that the main reason for the crash at 266 is commonly attributed to the inability of mtgox to provide a decent market platform?

why change the bitcoin code

how about make their own alt coin the way they want it..

Well, if you wanna dissect that quote he did mention the bitcoin-ecosystem, and I believe referring to the exchanges, the bank did partnered with an exchange not a development team.

There is regulation in place for business like exchanges, I don't see any good reason why bitcoin exchanges should not have to follow that regulation.

If a bank gets robbed, and this happens all the time, your money is still in your account, when a bitcoin exchange, online wallet, whatever bitcoin gets robbed, your coins are gone!

There is regulation and practices in place to protect the money of costumers just like that guy said.

The unregulated market is all fun and games until your coins are gone and the people who lost them are not liable for that mistake...

You can change the bitcoin protocol all you want.  You can even come out with your own. 

Doesn't mean I'm going to run it.

Everybody who uses Bitcoin is part of the Botcoin-economy and every transaction is an economic act. If someone demands "oversight" or regulation of the Bitcoin economy he talks about every user and every transaction.

Hence, he is talking about the protocol.

I just put my tinfoil hat on and tried to interpret it any other way but failed.

Joe

Yes, this is Bitcoin. And regulation won't change that.
Of course regulation works with banks as payments are far from instant.

What did he say?

I don't understand. If he talks about protecting the consumer in this eco-system - why does it mean he wants to change the protocoll?

I think, some off-the-chain-transaction would make reverse transaction possible, e. G., without changing the protocoll, or maybe he wants to make super-secure wallets on his servers so noone can hack inside or forget the passphrase ...

It was in the c't magacine? The actual?

I'm sure if we hand over Bitcoin to banking regulators, they'll get it right this time.

 ::)

The banksters just don't get it.

yup, in the actual (http://www.der-englisch-blog.de/2009/02/26/aktuell/) and current c't magazine.  ;)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281661.0

Well, if he's saying that Fidor are offering to buy the requisite BTC to mirror the accounts balances at any one time, then I think it sounds like a good idea! I think the OP assumes that letting the banks change the protocol generate a theft fund for deposit guarantees is the only "way"... it's not even a way at all, it requires a chain fork, as already mentioned (another idea could just be offering two factor authentication in it's many guises)

im still a little concerned that the major exchanges are also inbed with the foundation.

much like state governors and members of parliament are also chairmen of corporations..

this means if the foundation changes code, exchanges will take on that change without question and thus making the community, like sheeple follow suite as their funds will become less useful, unless using the same fork as the exchanges.


so don't fully believe that if the foundation makes a bad coding decision that the majority would automatically reject it. not unless the majority want to be stuck with only using local bitcoins.com as the only way to cash in and out.

Don't be a purist, use the fork exactly once and trade those coins for a sound currency, i.e. bitcoin!  It'll drive the value of a coin on the fork to near 0.

Sounds suckie and fuckie. Is it really possible to change the protocole ?

Sadly changing this will be easy for the powers that be. All it requires is to make sure the main developers change the protocol to their needs and use that as the offiicial Bitcoin client on bitcoin.org

All new people coming to Bitcoin wont realize these forums are screaming protocol changes and will believe whatever they are told to believe.

Gavin and crew will comply since they wont like a cell in Gitmo, and so dies Bitcoin.

As of this moment this wont happen, but if Bitcoin because what we all hope it becomes the fight will take new heights. Its messing with the most power people of this world, do you think they will stand by and see their printed trillions blow up? Hardly.....

To make something clear:

There has been no single word in the entire article about changing the protocoll.

There are just two information from the fidor-ceo:
- he wants to see the bitcoin integrated in the legal system
- he wants to protect customers
- he wants to stabilze the economy

That's all. OP did misunderstand a lot in a hysterical kind. Or he thinks, the existing protocol makes these goals impossible.

NOBODY DID TALK OF CHANGING THE PROTOCOL!

Banks protect people's money? Look at Cyprus. Look at Greece.

There is no way anyone can protect money for a long time in an inflationary system where all money is debt.

As a friend said previously, banks can use eur, usd etc for their purposes.

I think he was being slightly sarcastic.

Lol keep thinking that
Bitcoin.org would be so ddos'd that even PRISM couldn't handle the load
Someone anonymous and outside US+EU would take the lead

You are correct on that the word 'protocol' has not even been mentioned in the whole article.

I do believe though, that 'integrating Bitcoin into the legal system' means exactly that.

The state desires full KYC- and AML-procedures to be applied on everything that allows people to transfer wealth, that is, to 'integrate' a payment system into the legal system.

Yes I think the existing protocol makes that impossible so in order to make it possible the protocol needs a little change. Please correct me on that one, it would make my day to realise that I am wrong on this.

I do have to admit some hysterical laughter in reaction to those following two statements though but I guess you understand that, given the fact that it comes from a banker:


I had totally forgotten that that's why we need banks.


Well, for a German that sounds like "NOBODY IS INTENDING TO BUILD A WALL". (SCNR! Famous quote of Erich Honecker. ;))

Joe

http://www.americanrestroom.org/gov/ohsa/

the government is already two step ahead of you, pun intended.

You don't know Gavin, do you.  ;)

No one on the dev team would support a protocol like this. They also can not be legally be compelled to write code.

WE DID NEVER BUILD A WALL !!! IT WAS JUST A MONUMENT FOR TOURISTS!!! ;D

Honestly, I don't know nothing nothing about KYC and AML procedures.

In dubio pro reo, and there is a banker, who is interested in bitcoin, and he wants, what bankers usually want - profit from it -  and he says, what bankers have to say - make it conform to legal issues, protecting consumers - what else should he say? - and I don't see a reason to suspect him to change the protocol. I think, if he sees no legal way to deal with bitcoin, he won't try to change anything, but do what most of the bankers do: don't touch it, maybe fight it. It's about the commandment of the financial flows, and there are only two options: fight or cooperate.
By now I think it's good he's more open minded than 99,9 percent of bankers, and there IS NO REASON TO SUSPECT HIM OF ANYTHING but saying, what bankers have to say. He wants to cooperate, he gives bitcoin in germany a respected face, and he has to worry about laws and the government. So it seems, and I SEE NO REASON TO -- you know :)

I think the problem is that they are starting to get it...

'Know Your Customer': both sender and receiver of a transaction need to be 100% identified in regards to their real world identity, address, tax number, whatever.

'Anti Money Laundering' demands a central authority that monitors all transactions and reports suspicious activities to the government, whatever the government finds suspicious. It also demands funds to be confiscatable in case the government does not like these activities.

THAT is what a banker talks about when he talks about 'integrating the Bitcoin economy into the legal system' and NOTHING ELSE.


I don't know this gentleman and I do not suspect him of anything, I just take his statements from the press.

I would doubt though that any banker can give Bitcoin a respected face in Germany. As far as I remember some surveys people here trust their bankers even less than the 2nd-hand car-dealer from around the corner (can't find source right now) ;).

Joe

Really? Shit. What about cash?

It's confusing. So you think there is no way to integrate Bitcoin in the legal system without changing the protoccoll?

I looked in wikipedia, it says:


As I see, this law is for financial companys, not private people. Both exchanges and banks verify the identity of the customers, this is done by now, most bitcoin-exchanges meet KYC. I don't think any banker is responsible for private bitcoin-wallets, like he's not responsible for what people do with cash.


Bankers, politicians, journalists - very unpopular ... but I think in common more trustworthy than Drug-dealers, hackers, money launderer and so on, which are by now still widely associated with bitcoin. As I know Kröner is respected in his business field, and the least his engagement (?) tell the people is, that it's some kind of serious business, not a joke.

No reason nations not use protocol. 

Issue cryptocoin convertible to/from regular currency that nation, "control" money supply same as now. 

Why pay attention existing bitcoins?  Can just replace all with "real" currency altcoin, not give away wealth to bitcoin holders.

Big Brother is watching you
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Telescreen.png

At first: I haven't said it's every aspect of the economy, I clearly stated what part this would be about. In particular mtgox(confirmed) and bitpay(probably) are what they are concerned about.
Second: This is about how Bitcoin is being used not what it is.

Do you think the FEDs are that stupid not to realize that the only way to fight silk road is on their terms? The signs should be pretty clear by now if you look at the succession of events. They won't to squash to undermine the legal efforts of the economy since that would only make it harder to hunt DPR & co.
Last: This requires no tinfoil hat but just common sense, which seems to be in short supply lately...  ::)

yes very true. Why don't we have electric cars and more solar power?  It's because Big Oil won't allow it.

Why won't bitcoin be allowed to flourish and grow naturally.  It's because the Big Banks won't allow it.

They both have hundreds of billions of dollars and the power that comes with that.  I doubt bitcoin will win this fight but of course I hope it does.

The banks have lost their own industry already anyway, without Bitcoin doing any of the damage at all. The central banks just have to figure out when they're going to raise rates, or just never do it and keep increasing the rate at which they're printing money. Sooner or later, people will gradually begin to wake up from their dream (to a living nightmare, most likely)

Definitely not surprised by this.