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Title: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: Lethn on August 28, 2013, 05:44:07 AM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdSq5H7awi8
I found this documentary pretty interesting and it's not as long as some of the ones I've looked at because it doesn't go into as much detail with the history so the facts may need to be cross-checked. Some of you may find it handy if you want a more condensed version of what's going on with our monetary system, I didn't know about the Greeks debasing their currency if that's true but it shows you how often it happens in history. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: Carlton Banks on August 28, 2013, 11:15:45 AM I didn't know about the Greeks debasing their currency if that's true but it shows you how often it happens in history. Shows you how much genuinely interesting (i.e. the real mechanics of empires and states) history never gets taught at school. Maybe keeping certain history taboo is the only thing that actually makes it interesting though :D Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: solex on August 28, 2013, 11:18:28 AM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already.
Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: Carlton Banks on August 28, 2013, 01:13:09 PM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. As everyone keeps saying: gold + precious metals have intrinsic value, which turns out to mean that they are more valuable for their physical properties than they are for their value storage properties. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: notme on August 28, 2013, 09:54:01 PM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. As everyone keeps saying: gold + precious metals have intrinsic value, which turns out to mean that they are more valuable for their physical properties than they are for their value storage properties. But that intrinsic value may be well below current market rates if the value storage usage decreases. Perhaps once price decreases enough we will see new uses for gold, but at current industrial usage levels there will be plenty of mines shutting down if it ceases to be a store of value. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: Anon136 on August 28, 2013, 09:57:20 PM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. the really smart people are positioned to profit if it goes either way ;D Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: xxjs on August 28, 2013, 11:38:57 PM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. As everyone keeps saying: gold + precious metals have intrinsic value, which turns out to mean that they are more valuable for their physical properties than they are for their value storage properties. No it means only that some of the value is intrinsic, and therefore there is a floor price, and in addition, it has a starting price should it become useful as money again. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: hayek on August 29, 2013, 01:32:49 AM This is good, thanks for sharing
Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: NewLiberty on August 29, 2013, 01:39:31 AM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. As everyone keeps saying: gold + precious metals have intrinsic value, which turns out to mean that they are more valuable for their physical properties than they are for their value storage properties. It is a combination of these. Gold is fairly permanent. You can step on it, subject it to magnetic fields, get hacked, its still gold. It is pretty resilient as a store of value over the last few thousands of years. But maybe everything is different this time. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: bitcoinbboyce on August 29, 2013, 02:07:33 AM +1
Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: Zarathustra on August 29, 2013, 06:00:41 AM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. There are 5 stages, and the pictures show that there won't be any business and Gold/Gold 2.0 at stage 5: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Course_of_Empire At stage 5, civilization (collectivism), state, religion and therefore money and business is disappearing. It's the rebirth of Self-sufficiency. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: Carlton Banks on August 29, 2013, 11:12:38 AM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. As everyone keeps saying: gold + precious metals have intrinsic value, which turns out to mean that they are more valuable for their physical properties than they are for their value storage properties. It is a combination of these. Gold is fairly permanent. You can step on it, subject it to magnetic fields, get hacked, its still gold. It is pretty resilient as a store of value over the last few thousands of years. But maybe everything is different this time. The difference being that gold had zero intrinsic value historically, or at least pure 24ct did (too soft for tools, electricity and chemistry hadn't been discovered, etc). Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: Xyver on August 30, 2013, 02:30:28 AM So if bitcoins are the next "quality currency", are they better then gold because they can't be "diluted"?
Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: solex on August 30, 2013, 02:37:33 AM So if bitcoins are the next "quality currency", are they better then gold because they can't be "diluted"? Yes, but the main reason they are better than gold is because they can be used for remote payments which is 99% of transactions (by value) in a modern economy, unlike 100 years ago when most transactions were face-to-face. This is the reason that fiat has survived the last 50 years even though it has been massively abused and diluted by governments and central banks. Physical gold is a hassle for transactions which is why most of it just sits in vaults. Bitcoin throws this status quo out the window. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: NewLiberty on August 30, 2013, 03:35:23 AM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. As everyone keeps saying: gold + precious metals have intrinsic value, which turns out to mean that they are more valuable for their physical properties than they are for their value storage properties. It is a combination of these. Gold is fairly permanent. You can step on it, subject it to magnetic fields, get hacked, its still gold. It is pretty resilient as a store of value over the last few thousands of years. But maybe everything is different this time. The difference being that gold had zero intrinsic value historically, or at least pure 24ct did (too soft for tools, electricity and chemistry hadn't been discovered, etc). Some folks valued it for its particular qualities which lend to its use in art. Little round art, that they would trade for stuff. Usually royalty of some sort or other. Egyptian kings would be buried with it and it was just as it was when it went underground. Check out the King Tutankamen exhibit when it is near, and he was just a kid. The silver oxidized a good bit after a few thousand years, but not the gold. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: Carlton Banks on August 30, 2013, 01:48:00 PM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. As everyone keeps saying: gold + precious metals have intrinsic value, which turns out to mean that they are more valuable for their physical properties than they are for their value storage properties. It is a combination of these. Gold is fairly permanent. You can step on it, subject it to magnetic fields, get hacked, its still gold. It is pretty resilient as a store of value over the last few thousands of years. But maybe everything is different this time. The difference being that gold had zero intrinsic value historically, or at least pure 24ct did (too soft for tools, electricity and chemistry hadn't been discovered, etc). Some folks valued it for its particular qualities which lend to its use in art. Little round art, that they would trade for stuff. Usually royalty of some sort or other. Egyptian kings would be buried with it and it was just as it was when it went underground. Check out the King Tutankamen exhibit when it is near, and he was just a kid. The silver oxidized a good bit after a few thousand years, but not the gold. All true, and all interesting. But you're describing a subjective valuation, of course, not what we're referring to as intrinsic. Art and jewelery have only ever been vital to artists and jewelers. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: NewLiberty on August 30, 2013, 03:51:42 PM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. As everyone keeps saying: gold + precious metals have intrinsic value, which turns out to mean that they are more valuable for their physical properties than they are for their value storage properties. It is a combination of these. Gold is fairly permanent. You can step on it, subject it to magnetic fields, get hacked, its still gold. It is pretty resilient as a store of value over the last few thousands of years. But maybe everything is different this time. The difference being that gold had zero intrinsic value historically, or at least pure 24ct did (too soft for tools, electricity and chemistry hadn't been discovered, etc). Some folks valued it for its particular qualities which lend to its use in art. Little round art, that they would trade for stuff. Usually royalty of some sort or other. Egyptian kings would be buried with it and it was just as it was when it went underground. Check out the King Tutankamen exhibit when it is near, and he was just a kid. The silver oxidized a good bit after a few thousand years, but not the gold. All true, and all interesting. But you're describing a subjective valuation, of course, not what we're referring to as intrinsic. Art and jewelery have only ever been vital to artists and jewelers. "Little round art that they would trade for stuff" I was enigmatically referring to coins. ;) Gold has had more intrinsic value over the span of history than anything else used as money. You are possibly conflating utility value (or use value) with intrinsic value (which includes the subjective value). Definition of 'Intrinsic Value' 1. The actual value of a company or an asset based on an underlying perception of its true value including all aspects of the business, in terms of both tangible and intangible factors. This value may or may not be the same as the current market value. Value investors use a variety of analytical techniques in order to estimate the intrinsic value of securities in hopes of finding investments where the true value of the investment exceeds its current market value. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: 2weiX on August 30, 2013, 04:04:29 PM So if bitcoins are the next "quality currency", are they better then gold because they can't be "diluted"? Yes, but the main reason they are better than gold is because they can be used for remote payments which is 99% of transactions (by value) in a modern economy, unlike 100 years ago when most transactions were face-to-face. This is the reason that fiat has survived the last 50 years even though it has been massively abused and diluted by governments and central banks. Physical gold is a hassle for transactions which is why most of it just sits in vaults. Bitcoin throws this status quo out the window. Except when stage 5 (supposedly) brings back self-sufficiency, remote payments will be of little to no importance to the common man. Gold/Silver may or may not be used directly (ie coin-for-cow) or indirectly (ie coin-in-vault / paper-for-cow), but it will be (imho) one of the standards by which monetary value will be determined. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: xxjs on August 30, 2013, 05:49:11 PM I watched this recently too. However, I think the gold-bugs are going to get a shock when the current fiat systems melt down. It will be cryptocurrency which replaces fiat, and gold will slowly become a commodity metal like platinum and silver are mostly already. As everyone keeps saying: gold + precious metals have intrinsic value, which turns out to mean that they are more valuable for their physical properties than they are for their value storage properties. It is a combination of these. Gold is fairly permanent. You can step on it, subject it to magnetic fields, get hacked, its still gold. It is pretty resilient as a store of value over the last few thousands of years. But maybe everything is different this time. The difference being that gold had zero intrinsic value historically, or at least pure 24ct did (too soft for tools, electricity and chemistry hadn't been discovered, etc). Some folks valued it for its particular qualities which lend to its use in art. Little round art, that they would trade for stuff. Usually royalty of some sort or other. Egyptian kings would be buried with it and it was just as it was when it went underground. Check out the King Tutankamen exhibit when it is near, and he was just a kid. The silver oxidized a good bit after a few thousand years, but not the gold. All true, and all interesting. But you're describing a subjective valuation, of course, not what we're referring to as intrinsic. Art and jewelery have only ever been vital to artists and jewelers. "Little round art that they would trade for stuff" I was enigmatically referring to coins. ;) Gold has had more intrinsic value over the span of history than anything else used as money. You are possibly conflating utility value (or use value) with intrinsic value (which includes the subjective value). Definition of 'Intrinsic Value' 1. The actual value of a company or an asset based on an underlying perception of its true value including all aspects of the business, in terms of both tangible and intangible factors. This value may or may not be the same as the current market value. Value investors use a variety of analytical techniques in order to estimate the intrinsic value of securities in hopes of finding investments where the true value of the investment exceeds its current market value. This is IBWP, the Intrinsic and Backing Word Police. Happy to serve you. Your definition is for the valuation of a company, not money. Intrinsic value for money is the direct use value. The other component of money value is indirect exchange value. Both are subjective, they originate in the mind of the market participants. Gold has some intrinsic value and some exchange value. Fiat and bitcoin have onlye exchange value. Have a good day Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: NewLiberty on August 30, 2013, 06:27:41 PM "Little round art that they would trade for stuff" I was enigmatically referring to coins. ;) Gold has had more intrinsic value over the span of history than anything else used as money. You are possibly conflating utility value (or use value) with intrinsic value (which includes the subjective value). Definition of 'Intrinsic Value' 1. The actual value of a company or an asset based on an underlying perception of its true value including all aspects of the business, in terms of both tangible and intangible factors. This value may or may not be the same as the current market value. Value investors use a variety of analytical techniques in order to estimate the intrinsic value of securities in hopes of finding investments where the true value of the investment exceeds its current market value. This is IBWP, the Intrinsic and Backing Word Police. Happy to serve you. Your definition is for the valuation of a company, not money. Intrinsic value for money is the direct use value. The other component of money value is indirect exchange value. Both are subjective, they originate in the mind of the market participants. Gold has some intrinsic value and some exchange value. Fiat and bitcoin have onlye exchange value. Have a good day Hi Police. I plead NOT GUILTY. Value for an asset. Currency falls withing that category. Yes, fiat and bitcoin have only exchange value, though I am working on enhancing that by offering a new Bitcoin Specie in gold and silver using a flexible standard. Having had more than a little experience of doing this with US$, we see the future as Bitcoin. (And also Bitcoin folks know what to do with a QR code more than the average person does) So also... very soon now, bitcoin will have precious metal backing as well as exchange value. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269535.0 Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: Carlton Banks on August 30, 2013, 06:40:21 PM This is IBWP, the Intrinsic and Backing Word Police. Happy to serve you. Your definition is for the valuation of a company, not money. Hi Police. I plead NOT GUILTY. I was going to get into this one, but I'm glad someone else did it for me ;) It seems that use of "intrinsic" is contentious, and financial or economic analysts are very fond of the "intrinsic value" expression. This confers the convenient property of having it mean what you wish of it as and when it suits a variety of arguments. I would recommend sticking to the incontrovertible terms "essential" and "inherent", as it turns out that the base meaning of "intrinsic" can be construed as either of these. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: xxjs on August 30, 2013, 06:45:12 PM "Little round art that they would trade for stuff" I was enigmatically referring to coins. ;) Gold has had more intrinsic value over the span of history than anything else used as money. You are possibly conflating utility value (or use value) with intrinsic value (which includes the subjective value). Definition of 'Intrinsic Value' 1. The actual value of a company or an asset based on an underlying perception of its true value including all aspects of the business, in terms of both tangible and intangible factors. This value may or may not be the same as the current market value. Value investors use a variety of analytical techniques in order to estimate the intrinsic value of securities in hopes of finding investments where the true value of the investment exceeds its current market value. This is IBWP, the Intrinsic and Backing Word Police. Happy to serve you. Your definition is for the valuation of a company, not money. Intrinsic value for money is the direct use value. The other component of money value is indirect exchange value. Both are subjective, they originate in the mind of the market participants. Gold has some intrinsic value and some exchange value. Fiat and bitcoin have onlye exchange value. Have a good day Hi Police. I plead NOT GUILTY. Value for an asset. Currency falls withing that category. Yes, fiat and bitcoin have only exchange value, though I am working on enhancing that by offering a new Bitcoin Specie in gold and silver using a flexible standard. Having had more than a little experience of doing this with US$, we see the future as Bitcoin. (And also Bitcoin folks know what to do with a QR code more than the average person does) So also... very soon now, bitcoin will have precious metal backing as well as exchange value. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269535.0 Sounds ok. IBWP goes into half sleep mode on the sofa with bitcointalk posts slowly rolling over the screen in the corner of the room. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: BitChick on August 30, 2013, 07:45:15 PM At 22:42 in the video he says, "The world will be on some new monetary system." He thinks it is gold but I agree that Bitcoin is a likely contender. Gold is too cumbersome to use and does not transfer easily and securely so Bitcoin makes way more sense.
It is interesting for sure. History does repeat itself. Title: Re: Seven Stages Of Empire Post by: NewLiberty on August 30, 2013, 09:21:10 PM At 22:42 in the video he says, "The world will be on some new monetary system." He thinks it is gold but I agree that Bitcoin is a likely contender. Gold is too cumbersome to use and does not transfer easily and securely so Bitcoin makes way more sense. It is interesting for sure. History does repeat itself. The union of the two, Gold and Bitcoin, solve the problems of each other. Bitcoin is not perfectly anonymous, gold is. Bitcoin is not so great for point of sale where speed and reliability are higher concerns, nothing can beat specie there. As you point out, gold/silver is horrible at long distance transaction. Shipping, and security are always problems there. This is where Bitcoin ourshines gold. Together they fix each other, but they also have a lot in common. Their value does not depend on governments, they can't be inflated. You can use either independently, or exchange one for the other. So making specie that is easily exchangeable for bitcoin with real time values, and can also show the value in any other currency does a few things for us. 1) It conveys the value of bitcoin to the uninitiated. 2) Makes point-of-sale transactions easier 3) It is fun to see the look in someone's face when they see (and can touch) REAL money. |