Bitcoin Forum

Just a rant here : most people that go into cryptos are in it for the profit. Now the system (govs/banks) are turning that against us and we're reinforcing it by trying to speculate against eachother and going back to their fiats.

That was not why bitcoin was made. Bitcoin was made so people would get control over their money again.

So please stop fighting eachother and stop looking at those values each and every day.

The best part of BTC right now is its volatility. So we can`t stop to follow the tradeline :)

Yess! And it effects global economy all sectors  ;D

And it's still doing it. Just look at the volume that's being traded. It's always the same numbers being sold and bought back. Traders are bored so they're entertaining themselves the only way they know. Most people are still holding.Only a small fraction of existing coins is being traded.


Are you talking to those who are complaining about constant sideways movement or to the traders who are causing it?

Not yet, there's still a number of places that remain untouched by Bitcoin and it'll probably be even longer before they start to feel the influence. The financial sector has been the only one which has experienced any kind of significant kind of impact from the rise of Bitcoin (and the rest of the cryptocurrency community in general). The blockchain is the primary technology that has everyone talking anyways, and it still has a niche role to fill in the economy at large. It's not super popular yet and everyone is still looking at it and trying to figure out just how to use it best. That's not something you can walk into and easily determine.

the thing here is that most people still dont see utility in having bitcoin.. people are just buying now to sell higher later ! once most people realise how good it is to have bitcoin instead of fiat, it will make more sense for them

Was not us who put the fees up to silly prices and we don't like being mugged by miner

I am more fond of using this kind of digital currency rather fiat. Its because of the innovation it brings to our monetary system. I believe that the system can change their minds once some country adopt to it. Digital money has more uses than fiats thats why many people are unto it but not the government or banks. They somehow lose clients for investment and currency exchange because of bitcoin and i think this is some reasons why.

This is exactly what I always say. People talk about "cashing out" and I'm just like omg... Really? It is a currency you have missed the point. People exchange bitcoin for useless fiat. It is not what bitcoin was made for. It is a currency so spend it.



Yes it was. Miners have nothing to do with how high the fees are. People who make transactions choose the fees. It is like bidding and whoever bids highest gets their transaction solved first.

You’re proving a double standard, OP. because we are free to do with crypto as we please, we can use it freely for whatever we want. It’s not just meant for holding. It’s not just meant for trading. It’s not just meant for exchanging into your preferred fiat. It’s meant to do whatever you want. That’s the true nature of why Bitcoin was invented. Part of having control over your money is also having control to do with it as you please. And if people choose to make a profit on crypto, then so be it. There’s no sense in criticizing people for fighting over it, as that’s just the nature of any currency in general.

That's a very interesting point. Did you try to figure out which could be the percentage of the Bitcoins which get traded versus the total supply?

Well I honesty accept that I also want to have a profit. I am against you since most in this forum deserves to be payed for their hard work. Bitcoin was created so that the users of it will be able to shape it in its many ways. The role of bitcoin in the world is not for us to control the money, but to create a new financial system that is more advance.

How many places do you know in your day to day life where you can pay with bitcoin. In my case : 0.

Wrong. Satoshi meant it mainly as an alternative to the current banking system, where the value of money is centrally controlled and abused.
Like I said, they create the volatility in the bitcoin system with the vast amounts of money they have in order to destabilize it.

As far as i know there is no one controlling crypto currency tgeir value was always depend on the supply and demand by their investors. Yes bitcoin would be our alternative source of financial, no one knows why satoshi/bitcoin was created the important is we need to give more support in crypto currencies to make them exist for long period of time.

No one is getting it right perfectly.

Profit is going to be the biggest driving force with most people. If bitcoin was valued at the same as it was more than 5 years ago there would not be the same level of interest as what there is now. As long as there is fiat people will always look back to that instead of using bitcoin to its full potential.

Given enough purchasing power, anything can be manipulated. And govs/banks have a lot of purchasing power and have absolutely no reason to let Bitcoin exist.

That said, you have to understand the following about the 'system' we live in :
For the decision takers an ordinary human life doesn't count. It is a pure economical reasoning in this case ; the people serve them and not the other way around. You are being fed and taken care of because you make them money. Not the other way around. If you don't bring them money or labour, they (the system) won't feed you or want make sure you get medical care. At the very least you get the very basic in order for you not to become a revolutionary against the system because you have nothing to loose.

The general interest, or the interest of a nation doesn't exist. What does exist though is the interest of politicians, decision takers. And for them you, me, nobody of us count and have a value. For them you are being fed, so you can bring money to their system so they can profit from it. Like a cow is fed to produce milk or flesh for its masters to eat...

And as far as what the truth is concerned : it doesn't exist, never has. Truth is what one is willing to believe. For a Palestinian father who sees his son shot by an Israelian soldier, the Israelites are devils. For the Israelian father who sees his son being blown up, the Palestinians are murders/devils. The truth doesn't exist, never has.
The truth only exists in sience.

Sorry, but I've lost my illusions in this world already.

you can not do anything about bitcoin's volatility unless you ask new people to not start using bitcoin anymore! and that is impossible thing to do. as we move forward we also see an increase in adoption and that will not only bring in more people and more money but also it will bring a lot of newbies in with weak hands.

there is also another problem that must be addressed in some way. and that is the issue with exchanges and how they are too small. at first look it may seem there is a packed orderbook there but in reality when you compare it with the volume sometimes you see it is not enough to keep a more stable price.
we need more trustworthy exchanges with more packed orderbooks to reduce this volatility.

in time as volatility reduces, we can go back to roots. and focus on bitcoin being a currency and needs to be used that way.

I have a prepaid phone plan, so I buy phone credit using Bitcoin on BitRefill. There are a couple of establishments on the island that I live on that accept Bitcoin, so that's how I pay. I pay my rent in Bitcoin. I pay one of my vendors for IT services in Bitcoin on a monthly basis. I don't know about you, but as much as I hodl Bitcoin, I do use it as a currency for services and goods on a regular basis.

this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_CSI80xBxU

To do it one would have to compare statistics from all exchanges around the world, or at least all of the biggest ones in every country.
If we take a single exchange like bitfinex and compare some of the recent pump and dump schemes  we'll at least have a confirmation of what's going on.
January 22 (dump) 6200 btc in 2 h
January 23 (pump) 5900 btc in 2 h
January 26 (dump) 7200 btc in 2.5 h And on the same day there was a quick rebound during which almost 6000 coins were bought back in a little over an hour.

I believe the ones buying back are the same people that were selling during the dump, there's no significant price movement because there's no fresh coins or money coming to the exchanges. It's always the same people playing around with newcomers bringing less than 10% of the capital to the table.

From the statistics you have mentioned, it is possible that a large pump and dump group is playing around the market without fresh supply coming in to the market. Probably that is one of the reasons why the bitcoin price is not seeing any significant growth and only moving within a certain limit. But I believe bitcoin network is also a reason for bitcoin's price movement now.

The network is slow and the fees is high, even though it is decreasing, but still higher than expected. While bitcoin was made to replace the idea of centralization and to give power to common people to control his own money, but we have moved away from that goal long time back and bitcoin became an investment asset. People are preferring to horde it instead of making transactions because of the fees and slow network.

A majority of the frequent transactors are moving to a different currency because that is cheap for them as well as faster. So the acceptability of bitcoin has gone down to some extent. Until we have the network issue fixed through bigger block or lightening network, further increase in price is tough to happen.

The price growth is the main reason for this and it's very difficult to control it over a large basis. The demand is heavily increased so it would be very difficult to consider it as only a means of controlling the flow of money alone.

Are you sure about that? With the implementation of segwit the average fee has halved. I remember a month ago you had to pay 800 sat/byte to get into the first block, now it's only 200. One of my transaction in December had a fee of 300 sat /b and was stuck for 3 days!
People are hoarding it because there's not enough merchants. If you are in the US, Japan or Korea it's quite easy to spend coins. In Europe it's much harder, but if you're in India, Africa or China it's a nightmare.


Which one? Because while BTC's acceptance is low, the other cryptos basically don't exist in that field.
I could find a restaurant in my area that accepts BTC. It would take me a while and that would probably be every 1 out of 50, but try to find one that accepts XRP or BCH.
Good luck with that :P

Well,we cannot blame those people who enters crypto just for profit,it's not surprising though , it is because of its unanchored value not like to those paper money with dead people that printed on it.Besides it is the government itself that wants to control crypto currency not because of the people who using it,and trying to control it although it is decentralized.Bitcoin serves as a threat to other government so they banned it,like a revolution that will end fiat regime that controlled by some corrupt government.But other people don't see what's bitcoins purpose, they only want its value.

This has been done over and over again. I am surprised people are only starting to realize it now. Whales play this game called "fear". They sell their coins when bitcoin price have reached a certain upside causing panic in the so called "small miners" or "home miners" making them to sell their bitcoin and not holding them. The same whales buy back at the dip and make big profits within a few time later. This scheme is going on since the foundation of Mt.Gox. Spend your bitcoin when you need to and keep as you need to but without forgetting the power of bitcoin value for a future profit.

Absolutely agree, but it is just so hard to resist making an easy profit, just look at the situation now, BTC price can rise at least 2 times in the nearest future (hopefully), than why not try? And about govs, I think they would have wanted to turn us against cryptos anyway, because, as you said - they were made to let people control their money and govs/banks definitely don't like the idea. They want to control people's money themselves.

yes, I think they started it. we just answer their bad assumptions about bitcoin, this is because they are jealous of the enormous bitcoin value, whereas every fiat or virtual currency has advantages and disadvantages.

It's not a question of value, it's a question about control over you and your money. The vehicle is taxation. It's what finances wars, what pays their bills. With Bitcoin they have no taxation.

If Bitcoin wants to succeed it needs to get accepted as a payment method, which isn't the case in a lot of countries in the world. Therein lies the issue ; governements/banks will go as far as forbidding merchants to accept as a legal payment. Aside the weak link in the chain, aka exchanges which are easily taken out, this is the second chain that is weak...and a chain is only as strong as its weakest link (pun intended)
A bitcoin debit card aka VISA would be nice as it is accepted all over the world.

I couldn't forget those days before two years when I bought bitcoin for sending my earrings to my family from abroad.Those were the days when bitcoin was mostly used for what it was created. But now most of the new investors just buy it to earn more profits and when they see a small dip, they immediately sell their bitcoins destabilizing the whole bitcoin market.

That is the normal consequence of bitcoin, even though pretended to be a currency, because it has the monetary policy of a highly speculative collectible, in the same way rare paintings or old sports cars are.  A lot of emission when it has no value (when van Gogh wasn't renowed), and a diminishing emission when it catches on, is the recipe for "get-rich-quickly" speculation.  From the moment that a collectible can rise in value without bounds, it becomes of course a speculative asset.  From the moment the only thing such an "asset" has going for it, is its market price, of course you get speculative bubbles and crashes.

The fundamental property of a good currency is that it is constant in value, and hence neutral in its use.  It is a perfect store of value in the short term as well as in the longer term: what you put in, is more or less exactly what you get out of it.  A currency is NOT an investment, and that neutrality is exactly what turns it into a currency: that you can store value in it when you acquire value, and that you can get the same amount of value out of it when you spend it.  That's the entire fluidifying role of a currency in economic relationships.  Nash called such a hypothetical asset an "ideal currency".  In order for an asset to get close to an ideal currency, its emission should be coupled to its market price.  That's the official role that central banks have.  The criticism to central banks is that they abuse of their power, but that is no excuse NOT to have a regulation mechanism.  Bitcoin doesn't have any.  There's no extra emission of bitcoins when the price rises, as it should, if bitcoin were to have the pretence to become a currency.    The naive gold bugs theory that good money is a collectible, is simply wrong.  Collectibles that serve as money can fall in what's called a deflationary spiral, which is nothing else but "a speculative bubble".  You hoard the asset with the hope for it to rise in value.  That hoarding lowers its velocity, which indeed, makes its value increase, which, in its turn, inspires even more people to hoard it.  If people have been hoarding it like crazy, and only a very tiny fraction of its volume is still used as a currency, the price of the currency is extremely high.  It then becomes tempting for the hoarders to "cash out".  That will significantly increase the small pool of circulating currency: if 99% was hoarded, and 1% cashes out, the circulating supply doubles, from 1% to 2%.  This has a strong effect on the price of the asset, which can lead to people wanting to cash out before their gains are gone.  We get a hyper inflation (a crash).

The words "deflationary spiral" and "hyper inflation" are the monetary speak of "speculative bubble" and "crashing, popping bubble" in stock market language.

A collectible goes through these cycles (once, or several times).  It is useless as money, because of the high volatility.  If there is no price-regulation mechanism, there's no hope.  Bitcoin has no price regulating mechanism.

Another way to regulate the price of an asset, is to make it "redeemable" against something: to back it against something.  As such, the price of the asset will remain in the neighbourhood of the redeemable something.  If you can redeem a bitcoin against a Big Mac,  bitcoin's price will not deviate a lot from the market value of a Big Mac.  It is the fact that it is not backed by anything, that allows bitcoin to have huge value.  Nobody would pay a coin $10 000 if it is redeemable against a Big Mac.  It is because it is NOT redeemable against a Big Mac, that paying $10 000 for a coin doesn't sound crazy.

I understand your sentiments but you cant dictate the users what should be done in their holdings. We have the right where we want to spend it and you cant blame them if they want to earn in the coins of their choice because of its volatility. If the price is not flactuating, I think people will be less interested but it is beneficial to the merchants that looking for alternative payment system.

sir until all the fiat people are still here, people will keep fighting. Specially the persons that think they are clean with no trace of mistakes.

The best part of bitcoin is our financial freedom towards our money without government intervening on our transactions, meaning we are free from those damn taxes.

I can even pinpoint EXACTLY where Satoshi was making this error (at least, in as much as he really wanted to make a currency).  It is here:


http://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/posts/p2pfoundation/3/#selection-41.0-41.460

It is because he thinks he doesn't know how to know the price, that he put in a random emission curve.  The "positive feedback loop" is exactly what's called a deflationary spiral (currency talk) or a speculative bubble (asset talk).

"I don't know how to make a currency, so I'll make you a speculative asset instead".

Were all be returning to fiat money because of regulation of the government. Using of bitcoin are still limited which I think is ok s for today. If this will not control by the government, there will really be a big problem in the circulation of the money of the country if all people will switch to blockchain with massive investment at a time.

The value of fiats is more or less stable because they are kept that way by the central authorities that have control over them. Otherwise they would fluctuate as well.

The control of the money supply is only necessary to create inflation or to destroy inflation. Inflation is not needed from the point of view of someone who keeps money as a store of value. In fact the one who keeps money as a store of value is benefited more by deflation. The economy on the other hand would benefit from stable prices in my opinion, where there is no inflation and no deflation. Neither of those are perfect for all situations. Hence benefit someone and disadvantages others.

A large pump and sump group is playing in the markets, it doesn't mean much because they can't cash that money out unless the price gets more expensive.

Well, this is the volume of these pump and dumps in Bitfinex, but I've seen massive pump and dumps also on Bittrex, Poloniex etc. And these are the core of the speculators. Then there are also normal traders. So the figures would be higher than the one you mention. But I agree that it's only a little share of the total Bitcoins which is moving.