Bitcoin Forum

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Very interesting. Once we pay the set up fee can we transfer rights to the calcs? Is the set up fee one time only? Can we go for 3 or 10 years?

I realize you are the only one selling in bulk like this now, but is there any reason to think you have good permanent efficiencies compared to future possible providers? Like cheap electricity, the most efficient cards or something else?

Is there a possibility of you selling some small capacity with with no start up cost, but a higher monthly rate? This would allow you to take some small customers like myself without us having to form little unions.

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2884.0
 (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2884.0)


You might be interested in this freemoney.

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Would this kind of setup (on current difficulty) find a block or two every single day?

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So for ~$300 a month you get about double the hashes/s than a single 5970?

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nice service, and i wish you best of luck with it.

but for your information:

190*12+1600 gbp = 3880 gbp = 6176 usd

at 6176 usd, at a price of .4 usd, you can get 15440 btc

at 1 ghps, with current difficulty, avg time per block is about 1 day. so you can generate 365 blocks per year with this, or 365*50 = 18250 btc

however, difficulty will almost certainly go up from where it is now. in fact, at the next estimated difficulty of 22037.22945411, your expected yearly generation at 1ghps is already down to 16590 btc or so.

so, it seems a better deal, if you have the 3880 gbp to spend on this, to just buy bitcoins on the marketplace at current market price.

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Barely over .50 actually. There are 20k BTC at .51 on mtgox atm.

On the other hand if there is a lull you could pick up extra blocks at lower difficulty with this service. Not that I think that's likely. Another perk is that you will probably get a few fees, more if things really start popping.

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Sure, even if you try to get it in one shot I imagine some buys might be triggered automatically or something. Of course there could be a lot of dark pool offers in there too. And of course you can do it on multiple markets. No certainties for sure.

it's still a quite expensive service.

being located in one of those countries that "..are at the end of the list (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2895.msg39950#msg39950).." (~$0.29US per kWh) i'm always looking for alternatives to mining-on-my-own-at-home.

nevertheless just building a brand new dual-5970-system and running it on my own would still be a lot cheaper than your offer, actually i could run up to 4x 5970 for the same (monthly) price, paying twice as much for energy than you do (according to your post here (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2895.msg39901#msg39901)).

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That's true, but building PCs is fun. :)

of course i need housing, a connection and stuff,
still energy is the most expensive part.

and when i look for alternatives because of my high energy-costs (i don't wanna compete, hopefully some others will), i won't take those that are even more expensive.  ;)

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If i'm reading this correctly, these prices are ridiculous.  ~12k USD to rent a 4x5970 box (~2GH/s) for a year?  That is around 3k USD in hardware and another 1-2k in electricity.

It appears that you (and other miners?) are buying out the global stock of 5970s, so this could be an attempt to monopolize bitcoin mining.  However, I can't see this tactic succeeding as there are still 58xx and 69xx cards available.

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* buys shares in AMD.

Consider Vladimir's 1GHhash/sec contract at £1203 per 3 months. That's £13.22 or $21.36 per day. According to the generation calculator (http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php), you can expect to generate 45 BTC per day. Therefore, if you can sell your generated BTC for $0.48 or more, you are winning. At the current price (say, $0.65), you would make a profit of $7.89 per day.

Of course the generation difficulty is likely to increase every 10 days or so, and you will generate fewer coins per day as time goes on. If the price of bitcoins rises fast enough, the venture will continue to be profitable. Otherwise, it becomes a losing proposition. There is certainly a risk, but right now the numbers add up.

One reason to consider this service is if you want to generate, but don't want the noise in your house.

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Do you accept bitcoin? :)

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True, but I have more bitcoin than cash right now, and it's easier to send bitcoin to the UK than USD.

I'm thinking about it. :)

EDITED by talkinrock

PM sent.

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Saw this thread in your sig and checked it out.  Interesting business.  At first, I thought, why is he betting against the Bitcoin?  This because, as pointed out, at current rates it is a good deal contrary to prior posts.  People are basically buying a futures contract on the Bitcoin.  But why, over the term of the contract, would you give up Bitcoins that are worth more than the value of the contract?  Simple answer . . . without the contract you would not have the future Bitcoins since you are using the contract money to buy the equipment.  At the end of the contract, you don't have the Bitcoins generated by the 5970's but you DO have the worlds largest private collection of 5970's.   Next to China and the US, you will probably have the worlds next fastest super computer.  Good business model and no risk. [I have a similar business model myself - I call it my credit card.] Hope someone competes.  Then again, I hope they don't and I hope your house burns down in an electrical fire, since you make it easy for non-technical people to mine Bitcoins and you are in competition with me :-)

In fact, if the increase in difficulty in mining could be calculated with reasonable probability, you could just sell futures contracts outright.  $3000 today buys you 5000 Bitcoins in March, for example.  You would have many more takers.  A moment ago I wanted your house to burn and now I 'm trying to help you get business.  Go figure.

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Before responding, just so you know where I'm coming from, let me say that you are well respected and known around here and I think there is very low risk in your offer and it is a genuinely good one that I would myself invest in if I had the money.  Your offer is a 'win-win' for both you and your customers.  But . . . competing with you would be very easy, I think, because the upfront investment is made by those buying the contract and, as pointed out in past posts, the contract cost well exceeds the equipment cost.  In fact, if I were as well known and trusted as you I would compete with you myself (if my mom would not mind losing the basement space).   But people don't know that I'd be around in three months, much less a year, or that I'd evaporate into thin air with their money. [EDIT- I meant "would not evaporate" ... Freudian slip?]  That is your advantage at this point.

And, as I previously said, I hate to even mention it because if my statements encourage others to compete with you, they are competing with me as well, since everyone mining is in competition with eachother.  But my gut still tells me that competition is a good thing for both of us on some level.

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I do agree that my analysis does not take time and opportunity cost into account.  You are obviously an educated computer programmer with a diverse background and your time has a value and a cost.  As a full time job you might be able to make more doing other things rather than mining.  I was strictly figuring hardware costs and electricity.  I myself have 4 5970's running 24/7.  If I factored in all of the time spent going to and from stores to get the components, building the systems, getting the software running and tweaking the programs ... and added that to my cost, I would have to conclude the venture was not worth it at all.  

Having said that, I do think that so long as the upfront cost of the equipment is more than paid for by those buying contracts for GPU time, there is still a nice profit to be made by someone who values their time and skill set less than you do.  And where someone sees a profit, someone will act if there are no barriers to entry to compete.  Upfront cost is a barrier to entry in most businesses that does not appear to exist to a large degree in this case.  If someone would give me $2000 I could build them a box that runs two 5970's and I'd make a very small profit.  Better yet, I buy the box, plug it in at a little over $100 a month and break even in less than three months given current prices and difficulty.  Better still, THEY buy the box and I give them what I generate over the first three months.  Depends how one values their time, I guess.

Also, re-reading your post, you are speaking of economies of scale.  It costs a certain amount for me to run a couple of GPU miners.  It would cost less, per mining unit, for me to run five of them.  After that, I suppose I'd have to run new wires in my walls to carry the increased amperage and eventually have to move to  a data center, which would drive the price way up.  So, yes, your actual costs to "do it right" large scale would be much higher than I'm quoting as well.

Incidentally, I think you are in the UK, so I have no idea what you pay for 5970's (if that's what you use) but Frys here sells them for $599 with a $50 ongoing rebate from the manufacturer (Diamond), so $549 each.  Hard to beat, even online.

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Interesting discussion going on here! As a recent customer, let me give my 0.02฿:

I don't care if or how much profit vladimir earns with this service. First, it's a service, and like normal offline services for which I also have to pay I assume the person who offers it makes a profit. If not, why would he make this offer? And I have absolutely no problem with someone earning money with a provided service; in fact, that's what I do for a living, too.

Second, I just made a back of the envelope calculation how much it would cost me if I wouldn't use this service, but do the work for myself, by myself. Yes, if I only calculated the cost of hardware and electricity, than maybe it would be cheaper than using his service. But, I'd need a place to store these boxes, and either I'd have to pay for a decent DC, or I'd have to put these loud boxes somewhere in my home (no way!). I'd have to go around looking for the necessary equipment, do research for the best hardware, the best software, install everything, and tweak the settings. If I multiply the time needed for this with my hourly rate, vladimir's service is actually cheaper!

Of course I like to learn new stuff, but really, I've got more interesting things (for me at least) on my ToDo and ToLearn lists than building clusters and tweaking CUDA or Assembler code. So, if you don't have other projects that fulfill yourself, and find building clusters fun, than don't use this service but do it on your own! It'll definitely be a great learning experience! Maybe you could even offer an alternative service, e.g. with lower costs (use your own photovoltaics to produce the energy ;-)) or instant set-up. But if you have enough other stuff to do, use this carefree service :)

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I suspected you would implement that payment scheme. :-\  For now I will just pay out customers portion of fees every week if it is > .01 btc.  This requires some trust as only I know what fees were collected.  Currently, fees are negligible so it doesn't matter too much.

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+1

I am not commenting on the prices (though I think they are fair) but on the long term stability.  Doing this right costs money and doing it wrong will (in the end) cause failures.  With many machines running you can have all kinds of problems, especially if they are cobbled together, not close to identical and not well thought out. 

That being said... someone in a country with low electrical costs could be some serious competition. 

This is getting really interesting!

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I love the low cost of electricity in Vancouver... around ~$0.05/kWh :)

Plus it rains all day every day.

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I currently live in Denmark and my understanding is, that electricity prices are actually sometimes negative here (!). That's because Denmark has a lot of wind energy and at peak times they just don't know where to dump all that energy. Well, I guess you have to be some sort of high-volume costumer to get these rates and can't just get them as an individual. But with renewable energy sources becoming more and more widespread, that will probably change pretty soon as well. Since it will actually be pretty important for the stability of the energy grid that individuals start to adjust their usage to the amount of energy available. I guess mining is a perfect fit here: "Oh, let me take all that excess energy of your hands... I can turn it into money!". :-)

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Would you like to partner with a 0.02-0.04 /kwh country ?

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Yeah. It's like saying that your $10/liter gas is cheap because, you know, your only other choice is to burn perfumes and it's 1000$/liter.

Your prices are high because at difficulty 50000+ which is going to be in the next reset in 3-4 days, your 3-month 1GH/s = 7.88 PH contract is going to generate only 1835 BTC assuming no further difficulty increases (we all know how likely it is). At $2100 for no more than 1835 BTC (and likely 1000 BTC only due to further difficulty increases), it is much cheaper to buy coins on the market.

If your service is popular it can only mean that there is apparently ample supply of people who cannot count people who have not grasped the Bitcoin difficulty adjustment formula, yet. 

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My "hidden agenda" is to have less people who will be disappointed and would think bitcoin is some kind of scam. It's good for everybody. Your agenda is to earn money.


Complex contracts? You must be kidding. The contracts are plain and simple. No rocket science. Your pricing is slightly non-linear. 1 GH/s 3-month contract is as typical as anything. 16GH/s are a bit cheaper but still losing. Any longer contract is worse than 3-months ones because most of the coins will be generated soon before difficulty increase.

Show any scenario where your contracts are winning compared to buying coins on the market. Yes, I know: buying gazzilion GH/s instead of pumping 1 million dollar on the mtgox which would result in price hike. You don't have such capacity, though.

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black-scholes, futures, options, seriously?

both your contracts and just buying bitcoins immediately dont involve any options. you pay, you get something. with your contracts you mostly get it later, but its still not an option.
in my opinion, professional mining isnt viable because so many people just use their normal pcs. no extra investments, no extra maintenance, no extra profit margin. nobody can really compete with that, especially since both the professional and the amateur approach rely on the same hardware, common gpus.
for big investors, it might be different. its easier to buy one of your contracts than buying small scraps of bitcoins on the open market or setting up a big mining operation without much professional knowledge about it. but for the average guy its cheapier to just equip his pc with an expensive graphics card and let it run 24/7.

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Your capacity is lower the the global hashspeed. And actually it does not matter. Even if you had unlimited potential capacity, you'd increase the difficulty with your own hashspeed.


Your counter-math is non-existent.


What does it have to do with options? Your are not selling options.  You are selling petahashes which will become unknown number of BTCs depending on future difficulty changes. 


Because you are not selling options. Plain and simple. The closest thing to your contracts in the financial world are swaps. You are hedging exchange rate risk and difficulty increase risk compared to your mining solo with your equipment. Your customers bear this risk.



Is it enough to disagree with you to become a troll in your eyes or something extra is required?


Are you doing this business for charity or fun? Seriously? No, for profit. You aren't going to deny it and nobody would believe if you do. Is it wrong? No.

But do I have a right to say your service is not worth the price right now? Hell, yes.

If anything, your statement of my "hidden agenda" is libelous.

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What features of options? What option do the customers have? Can they exercise the option?


Nobody should care about your mining costs but about their own interest. Right now it is cheaper to buy BTC on the market and no "complex" models present only in your head can change that.


So you can say anything and it's OK if you add "I think"? I think you must be kidding.


This is a public forum, not your own. I have the same right to write here as you have.


Are you threatening me with broken limbs here?

And if you run a business you can intimidate anybody not to give a review of your service pricing? It must be very pleasant to do business with you.

P.S I would like to apologize for "people who cannot count" in one my previous post. It was mean and I'm sorry. It should have been "people who have not grasped the Bitcoin difficulty adjustment formula yet". And when they understand it, they are going to be disappointed.

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And now with the difficulty at 55590.23763914, 1Ghps gives 18 BTC/day, at a cost of $23/day. That's about $1.28 per BTC, when the open market is selling them for about $.95. Kudos for finding buyers at such a premium price!

You can do it too, if you provide what the customer wants, in the form that the customer wants it.

Water from the tap is almost free, yet my local supermarket sells bottled water at a higher price than coca-cola. Go figure!

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So for 1031£ you can get 1188 BTC worth about 622£.

Wow.

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you sell out very quick ...
is that a marketing tool or what ?   ;)

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Wrong, we are at least two. Don't forget also the pool operators who are doing a great job.
As for your offer, may I ask you why an investor will pay 0.16 for UK electricity, when he can pay 0.05 or less.
Your costs are too high, mining need to be professional, but cost effective also.
 

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Even your highest volume offer (16GHash/1yr) puts 1 BTC at about $1.27 given the current difficulty, so why do anybody purchase this?

I will not discuss your professionalism or lack of it, but when you say you are the only one.
You always say you manage a big great mining operation, with tons of Ghps.
Can you present some proof of that ? On the opposite side, my stats are public on BPM.

As your USD 0.16 electricity costs, you told so on this post :
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2895.msg39901#msg39901 (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2895.msg39901#msg39901)

You have plans on relocating, to lower electricity costs.
I have already 0.03-0.05 cost in my working operation.

A Ghps is a Ghps in a State of the Art datacenter, or in a decent, less costly one.
I don't feel threatened because you cannot compete with your actual costs.
In the end, ROI is the King, and investors will look for the best ROI.



 

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On the other side it's all carrots.

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I bet your legal counsel don't accept payments in Bitcoin.

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Dear vladimir, would you mind NOT spamming the shit out of the marketplace board please?

18 of the last 20 posts to this thread have been your own.

Please don't continually bump this overpriced server thread of yours. You are abusing the marketplace by doing so. If people were interested in it, they would make a post.

People, if you want to know how to setup a 1Ghps server, I will show you how to for free, simply pm me, and it will cost you much less than 1,600 pounds...

Thank you.

The purpose of the Marketplace sub-forum is for stuff like this.

with 0.14 euro per kWh (my rate) and triple 5870 (~800W including rest of system and some moderate OC) it is 320 euro for electricity itself
3x 5870 is ~700 euro, 150 for cheap mobo+cpu+ram+hdd, 150 for decent psu

that is 1320 euro (not including OS, configuration etc.) for four month

gpb to eur exchange rate is close to 1.1, so that is no too bad if one have plenty of money and not too much experience

obvious drawback is that after 4 month you will have coins and you can keep mining rig, while when contract end all you have is coins, but no one can expect vladimir to do all that for free, it ain't charity shop

while one can use diy methods, he needs to pay insurance, taxes, double that electricity cost ( air condition), internet connection with some backup link etc.
for a colocation offer it certainly isn't a bad one

The purpose of the sub forum is to sell your wares, sure.

My only problem with vladimir's selling tactics are:

- He is continually "bumping" his thread to the top of the forum just to gain more exposure, even though nobody is interested in his product. He is abusing the "bumping" ability of this forum. Any marketplace type forum usually has rules against these dirty selling tactics. He is making his thread look more popular than it actually is. I can't believe the moderators haven't given him a warning about this already..? I have never participated in a forum where this type of action was allowed. If you have something else to add to your service, simply edit the original post, simple as that...
- He does not accept BTC as payment, I thought the purpose of this sub forum was to transact with BTC?

I have no problem with him offering something for sale. Great, good on him for doing so.

I have a huge problem with him continually bumping his thread.

If you have something to add/change about your offer vladimir... simply edit your original post.

If you are actually offering a decent product that people really like (like this blackjack offer (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7303.0)) then it will receive hundreds of replies (from different people) in a few days, just like this one.

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People are free to manage their own threads however they wish.

Bumping, when there is a change in the top post, is reasonable.

Free bump!   :D

whole point of mining contracts is to GET some bitcoins, not to spend them...

Hey Vladimir,

I have to disappoint you, regarding your profile info :
It's impossible to become a bitcoin billionaire.
There will be only 21 million BTCs :)

However I highly appreciated your activate participation in the bitcoin community!
Keep pushing this nice little baby :).

Take care,
ISA

What are the "important reasons" that you can not accept anonymous customers?
I wasn't aware that renting what is basically a dedicated server with a GPU was regulated by the government.

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Any chance you would be willing to periodically disclose how much Ghps you have online, actively working?

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Just wanted to say that I took out a mining contract with Vladimar, and ... for my own reasons had to invoke the cancellation clause before it started. (My creditors found me and wanted my shirt, aagh!)

Not a particularly nice thing to do to anyone really as he had presumably started to ready the contract, and yes, I admit it, I am a flippertygibbet.

Vladimir refunded my funds rapidly and without a murmur of protest. 

Just wanted to say thanks for a smooth transaction and for being so straightforward.

regards,

   Mark.

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 ;D

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I hope you received the mini wind tunnels well.  :D

Vladimir, are your contracts still available? I saw a post earlier in which you claimed the service was discontinued, I would like if there is still availability on the list, although I must ask if I can negotiate the minimum 4 month of the regular contract.

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Hi Vladamir!

I started out last week @ 8.5 and have made back what I put in! :P

In the very near future I will be studying and no longer working full time so the $600AU a month is a bit steep, for me.

I'm not sure how low you can go; costs etc

If I paid $100/month a) On average how many BTC's would be mined and b) Is it cost effective for you?

Cheers.

PS: I could do $200 / Pushing $300 depending on the return.

I'm also interested in buying a contract, but in the $100 ($200 maximum) range. Maybe we could split a contract if a small option is not available?

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Could you help a newb out - how do I interpret this table?

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Thank you, that was surprisingly simple to understand. :D (Well said)

Thanks for that. That's 1.77 BTC/day I assume.

I was considering your offer but I think I'm about to miss the boat:

1.77 BTC today, with the mtgox market at $18/BTC and 0.609 GBP/USD, is equivalent to 1.77 * 18 * 0.609 = 19.40 GBP. That makes for 19.40 * 30 = 582 GBP/month. Not very bad indeed.

But as soon as difficulty increases so that the reward gets as low as 1.22 BTC/day, earnings will be 1.22 * 18 * 0.609 * 30 = 401.208 GBP/month, which is essentially the same as the cost, thus killing the benefit. Yes, mtgox and GBPUSD will change, and they may make matters better or worse—that's beyond anyone's control though.

Mind you, I'm not trying to troll and I might be radically wrong at some point, in which case I'd be grateful if you (or anyone) pointed me where. But I honestly think it's not very wise to join this now... which is a pity.

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I'll be delighted to be slapped in the face if that's the case :).

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Oh god.. Envy..

Bump..

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Vlad. I wish I was you/worked for you.

I'm starting to wish I had outsourced my mining after spending a few days building computers and still being less than 50% capacity.  Pain in the ass.

I would really enjoy being a part of this....but that's $714.60 USD a month.. I don't think I can afford that right now for more than 1 month, and In 1 month I don't think I could break even.

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Love the huge tower of graphics cards, looking forward to more pics of DC3.

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I take it you're the reason all my retailers are sold out of XFX 5870s and 5850s :P

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:P What's the CFM on those?

I envy you Vladimir, but in the good inspirational way. ;)

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I'm looking at these contracts and got all confused ...

I'm trying to work out what my expected total BTC payout would be from a 4 month 1 GHPS contract.

I understand the difficulty changes every 14 days. Is there somewhere I can get the historic changes in the difficulty ?

If I can find that figure and assume I got to keep the rig for ever, I can use the sum to infinity calculation as follows, right ? ...

     1 / ( 1 - ( 1 / ( 1 + difficulty change ) ) ) x 14 (days of each period) x 1.15 (current daily payout from 1 GHPS) =  total BTC payout

Let's assume for now that it is high (10%) that would give ...

     1 / ( 1 - ( 1 / ( 1 + 0.1 ) ) ) x 14 X 1.15 = 11 x 14 x 1.15 = 177.1 BTC

So that's £1760 / 177.1 BTC = £9.94 / BTC at least (as I'll only have the 1 GHPS for the 4 months rather than forever)

Is 10% a safe estimate for the difficulty increase ?

30% is better to use.

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Maybe you should ;O)

Apologies if I have offended.

I am trying to calculate my "steady and predictable BTC income stream" and doing my due diligence on the historical, medium term and short term difficulty changes, before I go ahead with an investment.

PS : Don't knock the mathematicians, they are the only reason Bitcoin exists after all ;O)

So why not answer his question instead of deflecting it?

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Are there any references for Vladimir on the forums from actual customers? Are contracts still a good way to go?

TIA

Vladimir has been selling his mining contracts for over six months now. I think you would have heard some specific complaints on the forums if he had not been delivering what he advertised.

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Well, anybody selling mining contracts, have no faith in BTC. Vladimir is strange exclusion from that rule. Or not ?

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Ok, What is the risk of Fisherman ? Big.  And if he have some future contracts - that risk is even bigger.
What is the risk of OilDriller ?  Big enough. In that case, future contracts are somehow lowers the risk.
What is a risk of gold mining company - there is some risk. Actually futures on that marked, increases the risk taken.
What is risk of Miner contracter ? - No any risk. All risk lies on shoulder of contract buyer.
Get my point ?

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Please tell me English is not your first language.  I don't mean to be rude, but I'm not sure anyone really gets your point.  I'm not sure you really understand futures contracts, as you seem to imply they increase the risk of the producer.  That's the exact opposite of what they are for.  Futures are hedges against unexpected changes in the market.  The farmer, miner, or oil company will lock in a price today for the products they will produce and deliver over time.  Effectively they win when the market price would have gone down after they lock in their price, and lose if it went up.  It doesn't imply that they lack any faith in their product or its viability, it's just they need predictable cash flow in order to meet their liabilities such as payments on debt and wages for employees.  

A mining contract is similar to a futures contract.  The bitcoin miner has to put up capital to get the venture online and wants to guarantee a level of cash flow that will make them a profit.  Let's say it costs $10,000 and a lot of time to put 10ghash online.  The miner could of course assume all the risk and all the reward of the venture and not engage in any contracts.  But there are limits to the amount of capital one can put into a venture, and limits on the amount of risk one is willing to take, regardless of how optimistic they are about the future.  Once they have had their fill of risk, an option to keep expanding is to sell mining contracts at a profit.  

It sounds like you are trying to say saying that in a contractual agreement between two businesses, both parties should take equal risk, so if the buyer of the contract loses out on the deal then the contractor should lose out too.  While that's an attractive option for the buyer it makes no sense for the seller.  The seller in this case gets no upside benefit should bitcoins go to $100, they just get the contracted price.  If they get no upside benefit they need not assume any downside risk either.  The seller could structure it so they split profits and losses proportionally, but that's a completely different business arrangement, more resembling a partnership than a contract.

Mining is wonderful isn't it!

lol. he has made a very good point, though. you take NO risk.

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ya know. I only read this thread because I love Vladimir's responses. Which I think are valid BTW. He's selling something at a set price. If you like it pay if you don't keep walking.

Personally I prefer to run my own kit.

BUT I can understand why people pay for mining contracts. Its security and I know valdimer's Kit is not based in mam's basement so it will have damm near 100% uptime and if something breaks I bet he has a replacement to hand.

that's true. your service is probably the most reliable out there. your rigs are very well set up, probably good cooling solutions and very reliable power supply. however, you're dealing with stocks here, more or less. your customers take all the risks for possible losses. your 3-month-minimum contracts make you amortize your investments almost instantly.

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Fair enough.

I have one simple question. Who owns bitcoin.org.uk and the forum operating on it ?

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