Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin over the past 60 days has gone up from $68 to $140.  

During this time alts didn't go much higher the way I originally theorized but instead collapsed with some going down by 90% and with only a few coins being spared the valuation killing.  

So what is going on?  Why isn't Bitcoin's fast appreciation taking up the alt coins?  And why are a select few bucking the trend and keeping lock step with the bitcoin and in a couple rare cases these alts beat out Bitcoin's 100% jump in value.

So by what mechanism are over 90% of alts getting killed and how and why are a few not following the same demise?  

I would point out ixCoin which went up some 30% during this Bitcoin double and I've read MEC and a couple other coins have also gone up.

We have a very limited timeframe to figure out what is causing this and figure out which coins to avoid and which coins stand a chance to go much higher if I'm correct and bitcoin get its ETF license soon and hits $1,000 in no time.  Cause if a $70 price hike nearly killed a bunch of alts, a $1,000 price tag would certainly wreak havoc on the value of over 90% of alts and would most likely kill most of them.

So lets discuss the how and why this is happening and why these few select coins are riding Bitcoin higher, as many people all over the world are about to lose their life savings if we can't figure out what's really going on.

Edit:


A thought just occurred to me.  If Bitcoin does go to $500 or $1,000, the way I expect, it is very possible that 2 things will happen:

A) Alts will get killed, moving LTC to the top of the profitability spot thus making it the multi-pool dump favorite which would cause LTC to actually collapse and not go up like most expect.

B) With LTC becoming a dead whipping boy that will be the end of Scrypt - long live SHA!


We all know scrypt added no value, it was just a way for some dude to get some attention but otherwise couldn't.  No genius coding there.  That's right, LTC is a CrapCoin. SHA is the best and with SHA you can add a merge mined patch and miners don't need to spend ridiculous money on GPU's and hefty energy bills, given ASICS are getting so cheap now.

Bitcoin $1,000 will kill over 90% of alt coins and it will extinguish Scrypt and by extension, Scrypt Jane, and John and whatever else crap anyone comes up with.  

 I knew I should have launched my CrapCoin in SHA256.






What say you!

Which ones are these?

I've only seen MEC, ANC and ixCoin. 

Anybody else wanna add any other ones over the last 2 crucial months and if you know, why?  Thanks!

CGB, ANC, MEC have all gone up in value since the btc rise.  CGB has gone up 3x.  ANC and MEC have a lot to them, they're easy to get behind and believe in.  CGB is easy to hold too since there will only be a million.  LTC has held it's USD value well.  PPC hasn't moved too much either.  Outside of CGB here, innovation seems to be the key.

I have posted about the likely root causes.

First of all, multipools are erasing the identities of altcoins -- especially when they are being auto-traded for BTC. These auto-trades are driving down the market price because logic isn't taken into consideration -- they're just being dumped at what should be below market value. However, once these dumps occur, the resulting sale price becomes the new market value. Smart buyers are laying out lower offers knowing that the big dumps will drive the price down into their net...and sellers are competing with auto-sellers that don't care about the value or identity of the coins being sold.

Another issue is the flood of garbage coins that are getting listed on the major exchanges. Each week, more and more of these copy/paste coins are rolling out that are designed to be nothing more than a pump-and-dump scheme. For example: ASC, SAV, TGC, VLC, and ELP -- these were all released by the same deceitful dev under different names. Then, the same group of usernames proceed to campaign aggressively to get the currencies added to Cryptsy (using grammar that is so bad it's borderline-criminal, really.) People mine these coins (or buy them once they hit the exchanges) thinking it's a good investment...but as soon as the clowns at the top dump everything they walk away and everyone else that invested in the coins is left holding the bag. Even though there are only a few bad seeds in the mix, it's enough to erode trust across the entire market. The altcoin world is the wild west and con artists continue to execute the same scam over and over because there is no regulation or authority to verify anything. I mentioned it earlier today in the Cryptsy thread, but if they keep listing these coins and allowing these bums to profit off this crap the altcoin industry is doomed.

There are simply far too many coins out there that provide nothing new, have no services, and yet people are willing to invest in them only to get burned. People are pulling out of altcoins as fast as they were flooding in last month and it is eroding demand across the board.

I think one thing that would help is some kind of authority/verification service that investigates new currencies, communicates with the dev, evaluates the code/etc similar to the way certain universities are accredited. The risk here is that the operator needs to have enough integrity to not be bought off...but being bought off and exposed would also discredit the entire operation. Perhaps this service could be donation-supported? Devs abandoning coins as soon as they dump is a real problem -- there are a ton of zombie coins on Cryptsy right now polluting this market. Adding these currencies (or keeping them listed for trading) is the altcoin equivalent of the stock market still allowing you to trade Enron stock.

Without some basic integrity, we have a problem that will never be solved.

The currencies you mention represent the majority of quality currencies with a future -- there is a reason they continue to rise while everything else falls. These are what people should be mining...but unfortunately people think they're going to get rich getting in on the ground floor and mining the new crap/scam currencies that keep rolling out. Those people get burned...and their money is lost on con artists instead of growing the value of quality currencies.

Going "down" in trade value vs. bitcoin as it rises does not necessarily mean they have gone "down" in overall value, they could just be holding their overall value.  Ones that are going up are raising in value very well in that they are worth that many more bitcoins which are in turn worth more in fiat.  On the flipside, those alts which have stayed relatively stagnant vs. bitcoin are rising equally as fast as bitcoins because they can garner nearly equivalent amounts of higher priced bitcoins.

So the fiat/alt value equation is nowhere near as simple as up/down vs. bitcoin, it's up/down vs. bitcoin's up/down vs. fiat

Since bitcoin has risen ~30% over the time you're referencing the only alts to have lost true market value (vs. fiat which seems implied in the statement) are those which lost more than ~30% of their value vs. bitcoin .... with all that in mind I suspect you'd see most alts are not doing all that bad.  The merged mine alts with the notable exception of IxCoin are pretty much getting ravaged though it seems with at least 1 of them nearing a value of 0....

My sentiments exactly...

damn! You nailed it!

This is true...and important to remember when evaluating the charts. For example, in reality LTC is holding pretty steady in value despite a drop in comparison to BTC. However, most altcoins have dropped well over 30% in recent history despite this often-overlooked fact. Take a look at Diamond (0.007 to 0.0008 - about a 90% drop), Cosmoscoin (0.01 to 0.00027 - over a 97% drop), Bitgem (0.045 to 0.001 - nearly a 98% drop), and the list goes on. Then there are the obvious scamcoins, such as ELP which was pumped up to 0.0003 LTC and, in a matter of a week, dropped down to 1/3 the price at 0.0001 once the dev and company dumped their premined coins/etc and abandoned ELP. My guess is the value will continue to drop off the face of the earth. Imagine if you were heavily invested in Cosmoscoin (at one time, a pretty successful young currency) -- that's an insanely steep cliff it drove off.

We need to put together a plan -- I'd love to help draft some potential solutions.

I personally feel that exchanges like cryptsy should take a much stricter line on which coins they accept. Every coin should go through rigorous scrutiny before getting in. As it is right now, there are way too many trash coins on there.

Limit the amount of coins, remove the auto-sell feature, and it should lead to people investing less in scam coins, and more in serious ones.

+1000

Everything you say is exactly how I've felt over the last couple months, but you word it better then I ever could.  

I can't help but think about that poor guy in china that stuck 20 BTC into nanotokens only to spend the next month and a half wondering if he'd ever actually see his coins again. I mean he should have done his research, but cryptsy is still partially to blame here for giving total shitcoins a big stage.  So many coins on cryptsy have shit devs or no dev at all.  Or they just paid shakzula to make them a coin.  

Unfortunately Cryptsy doesn't care about anything but their trade revenue.  I mean, if it wasn't for the massive backlash they received, ORB would still be on it.  Autosell and the upcoming trigger system (allows you to auto sell/buy on conditions you set so your orders don't actually show up in the orderbook) are more examples.  

Its not unique to cryptos its a classic market phenomenon. For example in the stockmarket I trade the days when the top 200 have a serious rally the penny stock generally collapse.

Think about it, most people holding near worthless alts hold them to sooner or later transfer them to the more valuable bitcoin. The more valuable bitcoin is percieved the greater the temptation to convert.

However longterm; bitcoin is a yard stick so the higher it goes the greater the potential of any alt that survives.

You have a basic understanding of the "problem" - but i had to laugh a little at the regulation aspect , it is the wild west indeed , the market is bigger than us but so this will even out , Cryptsy is a popular exchange but i think even they would admit its not a "major" exchange  , it can not exchange fiat , there is no real transfer vehicle except back to BTC, so the market is inside BTC.

everything is as it should be ..

Vlad if you made predictions in error , then you did just that.

I for one support anyone that wants to create any new "coin" unless its a virus or an obvious scam , such as say Ripple or the many other obvious scams.

as long as the basic principals are followed "proof" systems , - Open source - verification etc.

go crazy.

I tried this but went broke before I could get to step 4  :P

Exactly right. The thinking at Cryptsy seems to be that more coins = more volume, which is silly. They should concentrate their efforts on attracting new users instead.

I thought it was obvious, but by "major" exchange I mean the most active exchange for the vast majority of these altcoins. I'm not comparing Cryptsy to the NYSE -- all terminology that I used here was meant to be within the context of altcoins.

Perhaps getting snagged on this minor miscommunication regarding my definition of "major" derailed my point, but I would disagree that everything is as it should be. The limited trade volume at Cryptsy is actually a major reason value is tanking -- autotrades are often outpacing manual trades in quantity which results in downward trends. The market is simply not active enough to support the growing number of autotrades and if you graphed coin values over the past 30 days there would likely be a clear correlation between the quantity of autotrades and decrease in values (on average.) This is a problem because the values become question marks.

Another issue is that unworthy coins are being legitimized in the eyes of many by being listed on Cryptsy. These pump and dump coins are a major issue and they are resulting in a reduction of investor confidence market-wide. You shouldn't support every new coin because by doing so, you are contributing to the problem. When a dev is being purposely deceitful by creating a large quantity of currencies across a number of different usernames that they plan to abandon as soon as the coin gets listed and they can dump their coins, this is market manipulation and in any other market it would be a crime. In the real-world of currency trading, many of these actions I'm describing (pumping and dumping, churning, creating false value, ramping under false identities, etc) would be considered felony offenses and result in a prison sentence. The coins I listed in my initial post all fall under this umbrella. I'm not implying that these people should go to jail...but I think it's odd how many people don't have a problem with it. If this is how other markets were run, the entire world would be in a state of chaos and the value of all currencies would be extremely volatile.

I'm not suggesting strict rules and regulations...but by keeping these junk coins off of the "major" altcoin exchanges, these types of coins will start to go away. Why should anybody be purposely misled from the start and end up being the bag-holder if it's easily avoidable? Laugh at the regulation aspect? The only regulation we need at this point is to keep this crap off Cryptsy and 90% of this particular problem will go away. Why is it so horrible to have a board that investigates and reviews new coins before signing off on them? Nobody says you can't mine a coin without it being signed off on...but it would at least be a good reference point for serious investors. Cryptsy has the right to list whatever they want...but the point I'm making is that they're shooting themselves in the foot by listing coins that were designed to screw over investors from the start. You might support these coins...but I don't and I would hope the majority would share my view.

^Agree with you. Listing random coins designed for dumping by the creators affects everybody. There is only so many times investors will tolerate getting ripped. A few losses and they are out.

no problem - but it is still in its context , yes its the most popular exchange of all these many currencies , but by no means major if we are talking about a wider market, which i assume we all are.

with regards to the auto-trades  - this I guess is like an argument against HFT  - i'd say where specifically is the problem, the asset/trade  is either going up or its going down, there is no mystery here its just that simple - if there are many currencies on Cryptsy  then each one ends up at what the market values it.

if the majority of miners mine and sell , then the price will go down, ha ha , I mean? no ?

even if there were many sCrypt ASICs out there in the wild this wouldn't change that fact or even bring large inequity.

do you understand ? if there are no buyers the price goes down

where or how does that become a problem ?



Again I'm sorry i fail to see the problem - no one is making you mine or buy these currencies, many are scams indeed , if the market is not educated then , it is what it is .

I suggested the introduction of the ability to hide currencies on Cryptsy  if it had not been brought in , Cryptsy would be unusable , that's the only potential issue that i saw , and it was promptly fixed.

but that was an organization of information issue.

where crimes occurred in the equity market i.e the "stock" market was due to retard investors and a critical lack of information , so that is to say crimes were/are easy to commit because int he past the sector had the "image of regulation" and investor due to ignorance used "brokers" -

Cryptocurrency i think you will find is a different world to that . 



no no no , you miss the point , eventually as the market equalizes , if the unlimited amount of listings continue there will be many exchanges just like Cryptsy and then of course it won't be considered "Major" in even the limited view that we are speaking of now, so its hard to see the problem here?

no i don't support any of these currencies a very few, if i find a currency worth supporting i will support it .

how does one exactly "screw over an investor" , I mean serous is this the case where - the investor is kidnapped and  forced to invest in "Goldcoin" ? ha ha i'm just not seeing this "screw over" aspect ha ha.

I mean come on , by definition if you are an "investor" you invested , do you agree?

and if you "invested" in something  without due diligence or any information you are still an "investor" , just a "bad investor"

where does this become the Currency issue?

people "invested" in the Facebook IPO - and i had a good laugh about that .

take for example Quark

I find it really interesting because there were people complaining because ha ha they invested in it or they mine it and then everyone was dumping it .

and if you look at the trend there looks like there could have been a Botnet mining and dumping .

well , if you had any faith in Quark as a viable currency , i have to ask you would you see this as a :

Net Negative ?

or

Net Positive ?

i mean i have to laugh how stupid are people, if you have faith in the design and mindless Botnets are mining and auto-dumping , then isn't that a gift to you  ?

I mean then if it isn't;..... doesn't that mean the you are just angry because you had no faith in the design but are angry because someone else beat you to the dump ?

that's just called sour grapes ha ha , not investing.

i think people have a lot to learn .

Citing Cryptsy seems to be where your problem is.

Cryptsy seems to be basically a junk/crap exchange, it is where you go when you want to offload a bunch of totally useless crapcoins, sucker a bunch of suckers etc.

Look instead at exchanges like Vircurex. If a coin is not on Vircurex yet it is probably because it is a bunch of crap best left to bottom-feeders such as Cryptsy.

It can be argued that even Vircurex has set its standards too low, I am sure some people out there think so, but compared to middens like Cryptsy it is sure as heck trying a lot harder to only list coins that might actually maybe in the long run turn out to have been worth listing.

So basically if you want to go get ripped off or rip other people off go play in the crappy places like Cryptsy that specialise in ripoff-of-the-day, otherwise stick to reputable exchanges and even there do your due diligence carefully and don't "invest" more than you can afford to lose.

-MarkM-

I already explained my definition of major -- hands down the most active exchange for the vast majority of currencies in question. I understand what you are saying...but it's completely irrelevant at this point. We're inside the altcoin vacuum, here. Moving on...


Because instead of placing buy orders at perceived market value...savvy buyers place orders below market value knowing that autosellers will dump into their buys at certain intervals. The downside to this is that it becomes a chain reaction that can quickly drop the market price -- especially if a particular currency isn't active enough. I've seen buy orders that have been sitting there for weeks that were 10% of market value when they were placed...and because the investors were holding (but not buying) there weren't enough buy orders out there...and the autosells dumped in all the way down to these old, ridiculously low buy orders. Suddenly, that becomes the new market value...and miners begin to abandon the coin to invest their hash power in more profitable currencies. Before you know it...this situation all but completely killed the currency in question. Obviously, with a high enough volume of buyers, this isn't going to happen...but the more currencies that get added the thinner everything is spread and it's been picking off the currencies in the lower tiers for weeks. Buyers aren't going to place orders at 10X the market value -- why would they? Especially when the incoming autotrades are predictable for the most part.

If you don't understand it at this point, I'm not sure how else to explain it. In that case, however, I will say that altcoins may not be the best investment for you. This is pretty basic stuff.


If you fail to see the problem, you're part of the problem. If it's obvious that a dev is creating a coin solely to pump and dump it at first opportunity and disappear...and they're doing the same thing over and over again...it's an issue. The exchanges that are listing these coins are enabling this to continue. Nobody is making me mine or buy these currencies (and I don't) -- you are correct there. However, whether you understand why or not, these currencies are indirectly devaluing all altcoins. Money and/or hash power that would have normally been invested in quality currencies with real devs and a future is instead dumped into the pockets of the bums that have scammed the investors. There is no easy way for the average person to fully educate themselves because, as your responses in this thread clearly indicate, a lot of people doing the educating don't even understand the market. I feel like an exchange that has as much activity as Cryptsy should do more research before adding currencies -- people see a currency hitting the exchange as a sign that it is legitimate. This is clearly not the case -- you know that, and I know that -- however, not everybody does. Money and hash power is already spread pretty thin -- it's time to improve the networks and values of legitimate currencies instead of currencies that will soon be abandoned.


It's simple -- they create a currency that they knew from day 1 they would abandon as soon as they could dump their holdings for a profit. Initially the scam involved a sizable premine...but eventually Cryptsy tightened their requirements and they used different approaches (for example, soft launches followed by them and others in on the scam mining as much as possible. This growing network speed also helped attract new victims.) To take it a step further, there are a number of usernames posting about these currencies and pretending to support them/etc. People are screwed because they are being duped -- the entire thing is a charade with the goal of getting the currency listed on Cryptsy, everybody that's in on it dumps once it's pumped to the agreed upon price, and they all abandon the currency (dev included) and move on to the next scamcoin where they repeat the same process. Lather, rinse, and repeat. Unfortunately there are always enough people roped into the scam that it works...and by listing these currencies on Cryptsy, Cryptsy is effectively enabling the scam.

The problem here is that there is so much misinformation, confusion, and inflammatory banter that it's difficult for people to see the truth. Look at your post -- you're implying that the only way for a coin dev to screw people over is to kidnap them and force them to invest? How is that helpful to anybody reading this and attempting to learn from it?

How in the hell can anybody be against doing what we can to limit dishonesty and deceit in a financial market? I don't understand your motivation for arguing against some common sense ways to improve the integrity of the altcoin market.

Its like you are saying that the fact a bunch of sleazy fences operating out of back alleys accosting people with offers of cheap new watches that look like a Rolex causes people to think those "new brands" are legitimate.

It is crazy to think that the biggest sleazebags among exchanges picking up yet another ripoff of the day "legitimises" that new ripoff of the day.

To the contrary, the fact that the sleazebags love the stuff should be a red flag. "Oh oh, I see this coin is traded by the biggest rippoff artists in the business, maybe it'd be wise to check whether MtGox trades it yet... Wow MtGox doesn't even trade litecoins and namecoins yet, if even those aren't legit its obvious the crap the biggest scammers of all are pushing must be illegitimate..."

I mean really, for gosh sakes, most of the crap is pre-mined and/or instamined from the get-go, both of which are also huge red flags.

Its too bad the legit coins cannot force the scam exchanges to remove them, instead people have to realise that just because the scammers trade bitcoins as well as the latest ripoffs doesn't mean the latest ripoffs must be just as legit as bitcoins.

If you wallow in shit you're unlikely to come out smelling like roses unless you are the shitter / scammer / ripoff-artist looking to dump your garbage...

So far the solution is trivially simple: just don't deal with the scummy "exchanges" that facilitate the scams.

-MarkM-

In other words, you can buy coins...as long as you buy THESE coins.

Sounds like imperialism reloaded.  There's a balance somewhere in this chaos, and it's not that...

I mean, seriously, what the heck was Discover Card thinking 20 years ago when they entered the credit card business?  How dare they attempt to offer nothing new and yet contend against Visa, Mastercard, and Amex.  (*sarcasm*)  

Last I checked, Discover Card was doing pretty darn good...

Huh? You are listing one of the many years successful cards.

No mention of all the little pieces of plastic whipped up by forgers and scammers with made up new names hawked in back alleys off of times square.

Go print up a whole bunch of clonecards, with new different names, Xcovercard, Winer's Club, Fastercard, etc etc etc and flog them in back alleys and see in 20 or 30 or 50 or whatever years how well they all are doing.

The fact that you can buy the crap in a back alley is not convincing. The fact you can ONLY buy it there is even worse.

You probably don't even know a dozen, maybe even half a dozen, of the crapcards scammers pressed out with backroom plastic-forming kits back in the years when discovercard etc were first launching, so your statistics are almost certainly totally off, based on looking back with 20/20 hindsight.

If we print off 100 different "brands" of made up pretend cards, how many of each are you going to buy into on the chance one of them is the next Diner's Club or Discover Card or whatever?

-MarkM-

I hear you.  But close the exchange because only 1% of it is legit?  Hmm, I guess it's a viable argument.  More than viable actually.  Again, my point is that there will be winners and legitimate newcomers.  Completely shutting the exchange which serves as a platform for 'graduating' to the next level might be overkill.  But then again, if a coin is truly legitimate, it shouldn't need it, right?  But then centralization becomes a concern, I think.  Only one or two exchanges that get to say what coins are exchanged.  Sounds contradictory to the crypto currency movement.  Perhaps this system of 'graduating' to the next level is the issue.  But even a P2P system of exchanging coins won't stop a con-artist from conning.  No easy solution...

I am not saying close the exchange, I am just saying if you want to be ripped off or to rip people off go to the scammy exchange that have all the latst rippoffs of the day, if not then patronise exchanges that try harder to pick only coins that might actually be worthwhile.

If you insist on buying from sleazy fences in back alleys its silly to complain about what you end up buying.

Shop at a butcher's you're likely to end up with meat, shop at a jewelry store you're likely to end up with jewelry. Shop at scam of the day shop and you're likely to end up with scam of the day. So pick what specialty you want and shop at a place that specialises in it.

A bunch of exchanges clearly specialise in scams such as pre-mines, instamines, cut-and-paste jobs etc. Don't shop there if that isn't what you want to buy.

-MarkM-

Multipools + AutoSell

Its more profitable to mine alts and then convert to BTC, several multipools are out there now attracting people with claims of "Always be mining the most profitable coin" but just look at coinchoose, refresh it every 5 minutes and you see the top coin changes all the time because the pools mess with difficulty in a big way.

regular miners end up getting screwed over by massively high difficulties after only a few minutes of the huge hash rate multipool being on the coin.

eventually miners realise its not profitable to mine the coin most of the time and move to another, which just leaves the daily dumping of the coin for the multipools.

which leads to the eventual demise of coins being mined by the pool.


This isnt the only factor, but im fairly sure its a big one!




(MarkM why do you dislike Cryptsy so much? they list coins people want listed, there are always lovers and haters of coins but im pretty sure very few were created to be an out right scam, and it appears if a Dev has a real life as well as a coin the public class them as a scammer.  - What actually goes into maintaining a coin?? Personally i havent a clue as i havent ever made one. but i do know about other areas of IT (Web design/running online games/hosting forums among other things)  and it has been a constant battle to try and explain to people just how much work goes into the tiniest of things, when they demand their features NOW!. so I wouldnt want to see every busy dev being classed a scammer (I mean look at RealSolid - he has armies of people claiming he's a scammer, but also armies of people claiming hes a top bloke. - always seems to be 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other >.< so it makes it rather difficult to spot what may actually be a scam at the end of the day. - I think we might  need a Scam Police group with strict guidelines of what is and what isn't a scam. ) Best thing to do on exchanges is not listen to the troll boxes ;-) their great entertainment but definitely not for financial advice!

anywho didnt want to go off topic there but I always seem to >.<

back on topic.

I blame Multipools and Autosell ;-)

All the best

Stuart

Its bad for a coin to be listed on an exchange before it has enough difficulty that the gangbang pools cannot make much if any dent in their difficulty.

That is because it is the price in the exchanges that attracts the gangbangers in the first place.

There is much much better profit made mining or buying coins that are NOT listed on exchanges then there is in bothering with the crapcoins whose main purpose in life is to get on an exchange so they can dump. So really the longer your coin manages to NOT get onto an exchange the better, unless your goal is simply to dump it as fast as possible and move on to something else.

Also, just because hundreds or thousands of scammers demand a place to dump their useless shit doesn't make the place they dump it a good place to buy good things.

-MarkM-

Agreed. Cryptsy is a dumping ground for miners and scamcoin devs. Somewhere to sell off their unwanted useless coins, count their winnings, and repeat.

Its like a Second Hand/Thrift store, mostly full of rubbish which nobody wants, but a big attraction to naive customers who think they are picking up a bargain.

It is up to the buyer to do their homework, to read up and understand what they are putting their money into. As there are sometimes jewels hidden among the rabble. Does it have a future? Does it have a purpose? Does it have a use? Is it nothing more than an imitation of something with real value? Is it actively being promoted, developed, and accepted as payment by a growing number of services.

Anyone can walk into one of these stores and have the owner/maker tell you what is the best thing for you to buy, and watch you go ahead and buy it. It doesn't mean its the best thing for you. More than likely the most profitable thing for him to sell, and probably something that is hard to pass on to the next fool without a loss.

Do your research before buying any coin, off any exchange. Know where it came from, know where it's at, and be more than sure to know where its heading.



 

ZenithCoin... one case example.

Related: http://falkvinge.net/2013/09/13/bitcoins-vast-overvaluation-seems-to-be-caused-by-usually-illegal-price-fixing/

Maybe everyone just got bored by the idea of endless alts.  Mine were sitting there a while and then I decided I might as well dump them all for something that has more volume.

The whole vibe of this post seems to imply that most of these coins had value to begin with.  The reality is probably at least 90% (if not more) had no real value to begin with, nor do they have much future potential.  The phenomenon you describe isn't wealth being destroyed, its markets correcting themselves.

The real problem here isn't so much the auto-dumpers, as much as it is the exchanges giving them the vehicle.  Back when I started in Crypto, when a new coin came out, your only option to move it was via forum trades, and I used to make 50-100x what you usually can these days on exchanges like Cryptsy/coins-e/bter/whatever.  Is that because the coin was more valuable?  No not really, its because it had no real open market to set its value appropriately.

But how can you blame exchange X.  If they didn't add it, some other exchange would and we'd just be complaining about them instead.   And if they didn't really have value to begin with, is it the exchanges fault for bringing that to light sooner in a coins life than it otherwise would?

Whats a new coins value a week or two after launch,  that has no new inovations and brings nothing new to the table?  I'd argue its pretty much 0.  If its listed any higher than that, aren't we all ending up ahead? :)

Its because the alts have to evaluate more than bitcoin in order to be profitable.
If bitcoin goes up 10% and alt has to go up +10%.
I would argue that alts do better when bitcoins goes down in value, which is not often.
Right now I'm keeping my eye on one particular coin.
But I want it to come down so I can buy it for cheap so its name shall remain anonymous. *wink wink*  ;)

they offer nothing new. only new devs and new names. only very few of them offer new functions. CPU coins, even when they are as awesome as primecoin, almost cannot succeed due to botnets etc.

my best guess is that coins with at least moderate marketing and new functions/good devs (see anoncoin or megacoin) have a SHOT. that's it. a shot.

the bullion is doing excellent marketing stuff. that is another route to go.

90% of the coins here are just complete copycats that changed some parameters and image files in the client. you cannot really produce eternal value this way again and again and again and expect it to succeed in 100% of the cases. suckers can only invest so much money in tulips before they smell the bacon.

They aren't even useful for games, because they are so insanely insecure.

Until you have a difficulty high enough that the gangbanging pools cannot shift your difficulty by their coming and going from your coin, you are almost less than a toy even, since serious players tend to like their toys to be at least somewhat durable. They don't like to wake up and find the coins they spent all night killing goblins to get are gone or whatever.

Maybe the first thing a new coin should do is get legally binding contracts with enough miners to ensure the hashing power for the first year will be at least twice the total of the high points of the last year of hashing power of all the gang-bang pools. If not enough people are confident enough in the proposed new coin to commit their mining power to it for a year maybe the proposal needs some work before bothering to implement the thing.

-MarkM-

Have no fear, the law of supply and demand is here.

I read someone predicting that people were going to lose their life savings? I hope individuals are not investing their life savings into alt coins. Not a good idea. The bottom line is "developers" are going to keep cranking out coins until it is no longer profitable to do so. Back in the early 90's the same thing was happening with search engines, it seemed like a new search engine was being cranked out each day. Eventually the market decided which search engines were valuable and the others fell by the waist side.

There is a temptation to blame the exchanges, but ultimately it will be the market that decides which coins succeed, which coins have value, and which ones are worthless.

It's wrong, innovation doesn't pay. Neocoin is an innovative coin with uniques features and much time spent and some copycat coins without real work are more valuable. It's why you won't find much real programmers with talent and skill who spend their time and their programming knowledge on this stuff. It's much profitable to spend time to create softwares and sell them with paypal or other payment methods.

The key to success to make a popular altcoin is an aggressive marketing, rare rewards and other scam scenarios, that's all.

aww you poor guy you see I'm trying to help you out here , let me finish you sentence up there..~~~~

~~~ this situation all but completely killed the currency in question. Obviously, with a high enough volume of buyers, this isn't going to happen...but the more currencies that get added the thinner everything is spread and it's been picking off the currencies in the lower tiers for weeks, ~~ wait I've had an epiphany , and , and then eventually the useless currencies with no value will get caught into a trade and market sector at which they belong which is , after all useless , and then other currencies with potential value will rise and move forward as they directly trade in the market of confidence/relevance .... wow i got it now digitalindustry thanks for the help ! what was i worrying / complaining about ?

  


indeed - you don't but you complain , why because other do , this is interesting ? lets see what else you say...


contrary i believe i understand just fine - lets have a look at what you said  , so you are contesting that though some magic of misspelling and blatant scamming that nefarious devs are ruining alternative currencies ? by the devious mis-allocation of funds, though trickery - and its just that I don't understand because  some stupid people invested in fartcoin. ?

and because Cryptsy lists Fartcoin that gives it the legitimacy of investment you say  ?

you probably need to maybe get out a little more - join a sporting group - you have deceived yourself that exchange = success , so maybe you just have a little more to learn?


Again you don't see the bigger picture do you ? - I spoke about this a long time ago and spread the warning to BTC-e and i expect they saw it themselves , that they would de-legitimize themselves if they didn't bring in a little quality control - they got burned with Chinacoin and probably regret the listing of FTC , but those were early days so , its by the by , Cryptsy has a different business model they don't have fiat transference, and even if they did - if you don't like then don't trade there , but you can't cry about it, if more people feel that Cryptsy is listing junk then if i effects their user base then they will change that , again this is the market working , see how there is no regulation here.

and if the market of hash power is spread thin (even though you are wrong) , that's because people are not mining scams any longer - which of course is generally a good thing you could suppose

wow.



well , you see - bholzer , i'll talk slowly here , if i was going to invest my money in something , i would probably at very least have a look at its history - maybe even go out of my way and look at the thread where it was originally announced , and you know what if i couldn't find all the information that i needed , you know what .....?

I wouldn't invest .  

: O   : O    : O

: 0   : 0   : 0

^^

they are shocked looks, in case you didn't notice.

i know this is revolutionary - and not adhering to this principal is ruining "alt-currency" but there... I said it.

you know what , if I it looked like a scam i wouldn't mine it either !

: 0   : 0   :O

might even post on the topic and point out the particular scam

: 0  : o  : O

{please hear accompanying ooooh aaaaaah sounds  after each shocked look}

Actually, being valuable seems to lower popularity, at least among the suckers who keep falling for each new scamcoin of the day.

Bitcoin is valuable, that is why they do not want it. They want something totally worthless because if it is worth nothing then any increase at all is infinity percent gain, and it is the percentage gain they want, not actual value per se.

The more worthless the coin the better, because the more it costs per coin right now the less likely they seem to think it is that it will increase in value by ten or a hundred times overnight.

-MarkM-

+1

Micoguy sums it up here pretty simply I think.

and for all the confused people trying to blame Multipools - nope kids wrong again if , those people think the best game in town is BTC then they will use a Multipool - that's not the Mulit-pools fault .

What is wrong with people ?,  I have to say this problem where by they can't see the problem .

This is the same symptom of our overall sick society - where by unfortunately the populations , thinking ability seems impeded or damaged . 

that's not to say that I'm saying you are all retards , I'm just saying that in these areas , there seems to be problems.

fine , that's just day trading , happens all over the world. - no problem .

want to trade trade , want to invest , invest in something on a time scale .

if people can't get that right , they shouldn't really blame the exchange, i can personally tell you of fiat exchanges that are thieves , they steal money , they do it in complex way, this can't happen on a Crypto-exchange due to the blockchain , so these people complaining .......

+1

If you are looking for a coin with real actual value, consider ZenithCoin (ZTC).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295724.0

We've acquired a terra hash miner (and may acquire more) to mine BTC that will be redistributed to holders of ZTC.

The coin has actual value beyond mere speculation.

I see you are evading the actual thread about the coin, that presumably shows how much it was pre-mined and insta-mined, instead shifting focus to a bribery attempt, do such bribes actually serve to distract people from whatever dirty laundry might be hidden away in the actual launch thread of the coin?

Besides, value isn't attractive, it seems. If it were we'd see people running Open Transactions clients so they could get in on all the coins that skyrocketed far above bitcoin in value.

-MarkM-

There you go see , straight from the horse mouth :

"The coin has actual value beyond mere speculation."

invest millions .

I mean that , guys invest millions, all your money, max your credit cards and quit your job.

I'm not being sarcastic.


**

Question humans have two lungs AND two kidneys right ?

I'm gonna add this to the OP.

A thought just occurred to me.  If Bitcoin does go to $500 or $1,000, the way I expect, it is very possible that 2 things will happen:

A) Alts will get killed, moving LTC to the top of the profitability spot thus making it the multi-pool dump favorite which would cause LTC to actually collapse and not go up like most expect.

B) With LTC becoming a dead whipping boy that will be the end of Scrypt - long live SHA!


We all know scrypt added no value, it was just a way for some dude to get some attention but couldn't.  That's right, LTC is a CrapCoin. SHA is the best and with SHA you can add a merge mined patch and miners don't need to spend ridiculous money on GPU's and hefty energy bills, given ASICS are getting so cheap now.

Bitcoin $1,000 will kill over 90% of alt coins and it will extinguish Scrypt and by extension, Scrypt Jane, and John and whatever else crap anyone comes up with.  

 I knew I should have launched my CrapCoin in SHA256.

...says the shitcoin developer

If everyone switched to LTC mining not a whole lot would change.  The coin has real buy support, a very large % of the coin mined everyday already gets dumped.  There's enough people who truly believe in LTC at this point to support most of the daily mint getting dumped.  Any coin with 30+ gh/s on it for months is going to see a large amount dumped. Middlecoin/multipool are small fries in the LTC pool, not much changes when they switch to it.



Neocoin doesn't have any compelling innovative features that I'm aware of, and it also had multiple failed launches.  The horrible launch left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouth.

"What you have just said, is the most insanely idiotic thing I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul."

Your reading comprehension is absolutely terrible and you have completely eluded me regarding your goal here. You have spent a lot of time making a fool of yourself...but even putting that aside what is your point? Hopefully English isn't your first language, in which case I apologize.

I have to get out of the altcoin game - too many people like this are around and I'm too old to argue on a message board with clueless morons that literally can't read -- it's a losing battle. Stupidity and irrationality "wins" this round - I give up.

Please do you research before making accusations about pre-mining or insta-mining.  ZenithCoin has never been pre-mined or insta-mined.

We all know that the game is to create perceived value.  This is the game in every financial instrument that has been every created.  From stocks, mutual funds, ETFs, crypto-currencies etc.

I've never seen the value in many of the existing alt-coins otther than vehicles of speculation.

However if you do analyze all the created alt-coins, you see a common pattern:

(1) High block rate.
(2) Short time between block creation.
(3) Scrypt

There is a good reason why they are designed this way.

They are designed to accomodate mining equipment that is very rapidly becoming obsolete.

My prediction is there is going to be a burst of SHA256 coins simply because of all the obsolete 110nm and 50nm ASIC.

+1

yeah sorry about the English .

but i think you see now where you got it all wrong , yes?

because they are trading vehicles! ;D

Yeaaj to Bitcoins!

- Neocoin has major and unique features:
message notifications with encryption, push technology, software update notification, real-time stock market, nec live converter, trade alerts, sounds, new animation... even the reward system is unique.

- Neocoin had starting problems at launching but there has never been any bug. I responded here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263595.20

- Neocoin was launched with a complete professionnal webiste (not under construction!), easy Installation with setup wizard and daemons running on a separate host machiner without config files for users, who does launch new coins with such work?

- Neocoin is now pretty stable and there is no problem like other POW/POS coins. Some other coins had problems much more important than multiple failed launches (fork issues, sync issues) and are always here with the same value. Neocoin never had bugs or major problems like that.

I say again, you don't encourage real programmers with talent and skill, it's not profitable for them to spend time in this kind of project. It's why 99% altcoins are copycats made and propagated by people who don't know programmation and just want a get-rich-quick scheme.

The first 3 features are not game breaking innovative features.  You average user could care less about them.
Where is the real time stock market?  The market button on the client just takes you to the webpage showing where neocoin is traded.  What is the nec live converter? The website doesn't make any mention of either and I don't see them in the client.
Changed sounds has already been done.  

edit: i found the live converter.  it tells you what the usd value of all the nec your holding is.  is this really pushing crypto forward?
the market is kind of interesting but i have to look at it more.  neither of these features were in neocoin at launch and neither are on the website or have been promoted.

What I ment is it had been already launched, and then had to be relaunched with a new genesis.  Failed launches don't fair well here usually.

mec and anc are still alive and kicking.  99% of the copycat currencies you speak of die fairly quick.  Yes they're still traded on cryptsy, but that's more of a cryptsy issue then anything.
 

Evolve or die, Neocoin doesn't stagnate and it is constantly in evolution. These features are in the new version 1.7
The webpage will be updated.