Bitcoin Forum

I have an incomplete idea with some missing peaces about creating a crypto-currency that distributes wealth, something that communists and socialists will like:
A crypto-currency that has a transaction limit per month, if you are receiving more coins than this limit then you will receive less and less coins in each transaction received, the coins that are taken are distributed equally to the other wallets, so most people receive free coins if their account is active.

A currency like this could be used to create a community where you sell your service or product to other people on the community and use the coins to buy stuff from people inside the community, you cannot become rich with it, but you will receive free coins. If a system like this becomes the main economy of a country is the end of unequality, or can be a good competitor of capitalism, forcing this society to be more equal, multiplying the income of most people thanks to the distribution of wealth.

The "transaction limit" or "free coins amount" balance can be higher or lower depending on the ideology of the creator, the idea is to enable people to chose what kind of economic system they want to work for, instead of being forced to work only for a capitalist economy like we do.

I need help to finish the idea by addressing some of the problems with it, for example, right now I don't know how to solve the problem of a user making multiple wallets to bypass the limitation. Surely this can be solved re thinking the idea a little bit, maybe in a more technical way, I have not very much technical knowledge and I want the idea to be discussed so others more capable can make it.

If you don't understand why this could be a good idea because you don't like it and want to attack people with this kind of ideas, please don't comment, I don't want a politics discussion here.

Edit:
I've found a solution to the multiple accounts problem, it's called "Behavioral Biometrics", it can recognize a person by how he/she moves the mouse or touches the phone screen. The problem is that this technology is very new and only few can experiment with it right now.

Edit 2:
"Behavioral Biometrics" is something that can be hacked since the circle of authentication starts and ends in the local computer.

You would need to ask yourself, why would people bother working hard if they are not going to get rich from it?

If you get paid in something that isn't going to increase your purchasing power, im not sure about that, since there wouldn't be an incentive to put the hard work.

Also, how do you control the price to guarantee "people don't get rich from it?" you may be able to code the flow of the coins, but not the price itself, speculation can happen specially in unregulated markets like crypto which is the wild wild west.

I think something like what you are talking about was tried in the past with Freicoin.

These coins don't have much of a future IMO. If you are going to work for something that loses purchasing power overtime, you might as well get paid in fiat, at least it's backed big governments which control real estate, taxes, and so on. I understand that you want to stick to the technical discussion tho, so good luck.

This system cannot work. People would be paid equally even when they are putting in unequal amounts of effort.

Also, people will not use a system that is fair, nobody wants to be equal, everyone wants to be better than everyone else.

Although equality sounds good in theory, nobody really wants to be just average.

Cryptocurrencies have low entry barriers.
Nothing prevents a user from creating multiple wallets/addresses to bypass this limitation.
How will the items or the money have any value when it's being given out willy-nilly?
Money has value BECAUSE it is scarce.

Not possible in a decentralised setting, unless it's a centralised setting then it has a greater than 0% chance of working.
Cryptocurrencies have low entry barriers; raising or restricting this barriers leads to centralisation, which is what is being avoided.

Well, it's an interesting question as to whether pools of pure capitalist miners could be induced for the profits to mine for a bunch of pure socialists using a cryptocurrency that implemented socialist concepts.

Is there any reason why people would use this currency over Bitcoin/Monero/Litecoin? I think no, unless you force them too. There will also be problems with cheating, when people will try to create multiple accounts to circumvent wealth redistribution. So, you'd need to add even more control, and in the end it will be just a centralized electronic payment system. Cryptocurrencies are based on the fact that participants try to maximize their own profit and you should build your protocol with this thing in mind - there should be no regulators who supervise transactions, everything should be governed by the code.

I believe that distribution of wealth is already being done via Bitcoins itself - because people are earning them. I believe that the reason why it's being valued so high is the intense hard work and dedication of those people who deserve better values for all their work, which Bitcoin rewards them every time they do something good for the crypto community. Give me one reason why should anybody be given anything for free? Would they give any values to it? No, because they're getting those coins for free and even if you set a limit, how will you stop people from dumping them off in regards of getting them sold for as much rates as possible? And if we're to just distribute free money, I think it's already been done in the way of bounties and airdrops here - I personally call it as FREE MONEY DISTRIBUTION.

Your best bet will to create a coin like Ripple. The government pre-mine all the coins and they give out addresses to everyone. Every month they distribute a small amount of coins for free to every person that registered with their Alt coin. <ComCoin>

Ripple pre-mined billions of tokens and gave it away for free to their founders, but ComCoin will distribute it evenly between all citizens or members of the global communist party.

Russia and China will love this coin, because it gives them full transparency and control.  ::)

as others have said it can probably be easily gamed. even if it can't, it really does not sound usable in a practical way.

money itself is a tool. people use tools that work and reject tools that don't. this would actively hinder users. the idea of ideology hard coded into a currency is an interesting one but ideology needs to come from an angle that people will be prepared to tolerate.

there've been variations on this in the past. freicoin has demurrage built in.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/freicoin/

this tells you how popular an idea it is with users.

This is completely unrelated to technical side of Bitcoin, but i digress:


Built in tax or demurrage has not proved popular (see Freicoin). Socioeconomics 101 - people will not submit to a system which does not satisfy their needs. Current society is all about status and class. You need to first remove status and class by convincing people there is no need for status and class (good luck trying to override our ape instincts).

Then capitalism will disappear on its own.

Your comment is the kind of stuff I wanted to read here. Ripple or Freicoin (like other users said), can't be compared with my idea, distributing to new users or distributing to miners is not the same than distributing to all active users, these are totally different use cases.

I see that nobody here knows how a socialist or communist person is, you guys never talked to one I notice that, that is why you say nobody will be motivated by the currency, not all people in the world is motivated by the money like you guys, for example think about almost any scientist or a lot of students, they don't learn and do science for the money, they do it because they like knowledge, and that is just a quick example.

I'm a poor guy from a 3rd world country, try to imagine how hard is to be a poor worker and keep motivation, so I'm already unmotivated, specially in this world where 1% of the population owns more money than the rest of the population together, they own the money that intelligent people needs to improve the world, I see all the time very intelligent artists and scientists that don't have the money to do stuff that would benefit the world, only a few can get money from the state or a company, You never lacked money for what you needed and that made you live in a fishbowl, never talking with poor workers.

There is nothing more useful for a lot of people than an idea like this working, and not all the people will like it and that's OK.

Your best bet will to create a coin like Ripple. The government pre-mine all the coins and they give out addresses to everyone. Every month they distribute a small amount of coins for free to every person that registered with their Alt coin. <ComCoin>

Ripple pre-mined billions of tokens and gave it away for free to their founders, but ComCoin will distribute it evenly between all citizens or members of the global communist party.

Russia and China will love this coin, because it gives them full transparency and control.

I think this is the best answer to your dilema.  This is the good thing in being a communist country, wealth is  spread or divided among the people but the government is still in  the upperhand.   For communist countries this is very much applicable but for us independent countries, this might not be acceptable.

You should look into universal basic income, if you haven't already. If you look into UBI you will find some ideas that pretty much align with what you are suggesting. There are also practical experiments, both past and ongoing, looking into the matter. Using a cryptocurrency as means of distribution would of course lend itself to the idea, but it's not an easy problem to solve, especially with both UBI and cryptocurrencies being rather unexplored fields.

Here's a list of pilot projects that may interest you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots



Of course there are a lot of passion jobs where money is secondary, but at the end of the day they still require money to continue their work. You can't just look at individuals in isolation without their socio-economic surroundings.

Also note that while researchers may not be in it for the money, a lot of them still get paid fairly well and rightfully so.

Point being, it doesn't matter if parts of the population don't care about money. As long as there are some people striving for wealth, they will try to exploit the current system. And if they are able to exploit the system, that's exactly what they will do -- at the cost of everyone else who "doesn't care about money".

Even if your main intention is to spread wealth evenly amongst the populace, as long as there are some angles to exploit or positions of power to obtain, the approach is prone to failure due to human nature. Case in point, every implementation of Communism so far either digressed into a dictatorship or some form of centrally controlled capitalism.

Communism is easy to romance with if you never lived in it, but it's not a pretty system due to being relatively easy exploited from the top down. Maybe even moreso than Capitalism.


That being said, I'm convinced that due to technological and economical progress, some form of UBI will become a necessity in the future. It's going to be a very hard problem to solve though, regardless of whether it will involve cryptocurrencies or not.

As much as I would refrain from attacking the people who have this form of ideology, its also worthy to note that such ideology is far from reality because right from the start this idea is flawed. You talked about people selling using the coin within the market place but you forgot the original source of the items to be sold. For example, lets say I am coming into the market to sell phones, of course I would need to buy the phone another market where the coin is not accepted, and considering that I cannot get rich with my sale it then mean I will have to continue to incur loss in other to buy more phones.

In as much as no ideology is perfect, the best way to distribute wealth based on your objective here is to create a level playing ground where people can grow based on the effective use of their brains. Establishing a limit on what they can acquire will only kill initiative and make people lazy. The simple truth is that not everybody will be rich but the fact that there is hope and chance that it might happen one day is enough to keep one going in trying to harness fertile areas.

-First I really do not know what kind of coin you want to make , With your idea the coin will die so fast , you are saying that to get this coin all you have to do is have an address and you will receive free coins every time someone received coins on his wallet ! So you basically saying you will get paid for being useless . And why would anyone join a coin that will distribute his earned coins to others ! that make no logic at all .

-Second there is no way to make sure that everyone will get only one address in a decentralized anonymous coin .

Thanks for another quality comment. Yes my idea is inspired by Universal Basic Income, if you think about it, it's just a currency with an automatic UBI distribution, it's like, if you like UBI use this currency, if you want to get rich and don't like it use your country currency, no problems, you can chose and this brings freedom.

I agree with you, communism has a lot of vulnerabilities that maybe could be eliminated with a transparent decentralized computer system capable of disconnecting governments from economy control.

I've found a solution to the multiple accounts problem, it's called "Behavioral Biometrics", it can recognize a person by how he/she moves the mouse or touches the phone screen. The problem is that this technology is very new and only few can experiment with it right now, maybe in a couple of years will be available to everyone and then prepare for communism, someone will come with this project.

You cannot "distribute wealth" with some shortcut. That's a cheap phrase, easy to say but meaningless without the hard work of a free market economy.

You can come up with schemes to widely distribute coins. That's been around for years, such as the airdrop of Auroracoin to everyone in Iceland (if they claimed them) in 2014.

But that has nothing to do with distributing wealth because there is no inherent link between the coins you distribute and them having any value. And there is no reason for people to value airdropped coins they are getting for free. They'll sell them to the first sucker they meet who will pay something for them, but that doesn't mean they'll buy any more themselves. And that's what happened with Auroracoin as it's market cap went from $1 Billion to under a million dollars in the months after the airdrop began.

You want to distribute wealth better? Teach people to produce goods and services that other people value, so they can trade them. That's the only real answer in the long run. Coercive schemes to steal from those who currently hold wealth via rationalized "redistribution" projects end up destroying the incentive of producers to work hard, while doing nothing to help the non-producers become productive. The end result is poverty and misery for everyone. Coin distribution schemes are not going to change that.

in my opinion the possibility of doing that thru cryptocurrency is very slim. Distribution of wealth is a complex issue and would require a complex process. Its is something easy to say than done. Years and years of study, debate and legislation are being conducted by many countries to address this issue of distribution of wealth but none that i knew of has succeeded for. The balance of society requires rich and poor, easy and hard or ugly and beautiful, what i mean to say is that there are things that are made that way so that there will be equilibrium where progress can start or how things will evolve.   

It is not that they do not know how socialist or communist systems work. They just know more about Capitalism and they know this will not work, when nobody is buying these coins. Crypto currency gets value when people compete to buy it on a open market. In a Socialist system, the government will have to determine the value and then give these coins to people for free.

There must be a total mind shift when you are dealing with a socialist system. The government controls the economy and the money and they dish it out equally to everyone. This is not what I want for Crypto currencies. ^sad^

I understand what you want to achieve and why but I don't think your idea will solve this problem.

Even if you find a perfect technical solution to your problem (what is not possible because of several reasons) you will not solve the social issues with this idea.
There is a difference to do things right and to do the right things.

To create a fair distributed currency to solve unfair distributed wealth is not the right thing to solve this.

Here are my thoughts to your idea:

• Your wording is incorrect. Distributing wealth is not what you achieve with your idea.
  When you introduce a fair distributed crypto currency, only this currency is fairly distributed at the beginning. But you forget, that wealth is more than this new money.
  There are goods/properties/other currencies and so on owned by people. Your new fair distributed currency will not change anything about this. Rich people stay rich, poor people stay poor
• Unless you forbid at the same time any other form of money or store of value the people will just exchange their coins to anything else before their upper transaction limit is reached. This would (if not already existing) create a parallel currency which don't have this artificial limits.
• The current average mindset of humans will not allow such a system. A person who do more or more valuable work (in their thinking) usually also want to benefit more than someone who do less or less valuable work. In their thinking you just want to steal their well earned money. It's just unfair for them. So why should they participate?
• And if you think that no one would exploit such a system, you are very naive

Until the mindset of humanity don't change, such a system like communism will not work.
And if the unrealistic case happens, that everybody become a saint who's destiny is to do whatever necessary to help society, we would not need any form of money at all.

Sorry for pointing out those non technical issues, but it make no sense to create a solution which would not solve the problem.

It's like if you want to fly to the moon and build a car for this.
Even if the car is technically the best what can be done, it just does not fit to your problem flying to the moon.

The same is that a new fair distributed currency never solve an unfair distributed wealth.

Thanks for you reply, nice points. I can answer them:


The short answer is that this is a currency for the workers.
The limit in my currency is not in the amount of coins you can accumulate, is in the ammount of coins you can spend or receive (the distribution gets executed on transactions), accumulating wealth inside or outside my currency would be useless, because you cannot spend big amounts of money since you have the transaction limits.
Yes, the rich people of the world will still be rich... at the beginning... but if the workers are using this system more and more, in the end it would not make sense to be rich, the workers would not work for the rich because they would use my currency, the rich's money would have no value anymore.
The workers will want to use this currency because the reward for working will be better. Nowadays 1% of the population have more money than the other 99% together, distribute only that money from the 1% and all the workers will double what they earn, that is just an example.


As I said before this is not a matter of mindset, workers will get more reward if the wealth is distributed, just wanting more reward it's a motivation to use it. Also only half of the people have that mindset you mentioned, the other half doesn't and they probably are the ones that will push it at the beginning.
About the mindset: If you work 8 hours and get the same money than someone who works 4 hours, then work 4 hours and spend the other 4 having fun, not all in life is working and getting reward, also it is very common that recreational activities produce wealth (true wealth, "work products"), also a lot of people gets fun creating knowledge and that creates true wealth.


Very powerful people will try to exploit or destroy a system like this, that is the interesting thing about crypto currencies, there is no way to hack them, if the right software developers evolves this idea and becomes as distributed and invulnerable as any other crypto-currency, then it can be made into a reality.

I think it should be possible, it'll also help save our money