Bitcoin Forum

As the title says: are UK companies/webiste subject to USA laws (or any other non US company)?

It seems more and more businesses are shutting their doors to US citizens, and surely this is not down to them just disliking US citizens for some reason. It seems to me to be owing to the US's laws on money transmitting / laundering.

However as a non US citizen i would not think these laws apply to me (as long as i abide by the laws of the country that i live in), just like my UK laws don't apply to USA citizens.

I am far from an expert on the laws of my own country (UK) so know even less about US laws.

Best Regards
Ford

If your operating a business which serves US citizens and corporations you will be subjected to US laws.

Apparently you can face charges even though you are not in america.

Here is an article from BBC news that explains a little more http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/19172065

[edit] a quote form that article

"Any sovereign, whether a country, province, state or municipality, has a right to expect that a company or person doing business in that territory is subject to the laws of that territory."

Yes, if you want to avoid US law you need to:
- Not serve US customers (I recommend IP blocking)
- Require identification of users to ensure that they are not from the US and using proxy/vpn/tor to access your site (if your business is content provider with no login/members you're fucked)
- Host the site from servers outside of the US
- Do not use domains such as .com or any other US domain. Go with ccTLD, I believe .co.uk will be fine.
- Do not use payment processors or any other business located in the US. That includes gmail, paypal etc
- Host javascript/css such as jQuery & jQuery UI on your own server instead of using google api.
- Stay far away from CloudFlare, Amazon, ddos protection etc from the US
- Never travel to USA (obviously).
- Don't be an American (obviously)

If you do all this, I still believe you can be tried for extradition if you're in the wrong business, but at least then you have played all your cards right and have a good defense.

End of USA might be good thing for the world. That stuff is scary.

Thanks Guys 'n' Girls

Thanks for the info, but it "really sucks" that i am also subject to US laws as well as UK laws (whilst in the UK).

I am a law abiding citizen of the UK and do (and fully intend to) abide by all UK laws.
It however tends to make things very difficult if i also need to abide by the laws of all other countries too, especially if them laws are in contradiction of each other or near on impossible to "register for" if i am a small UK company  ???
This is hardly free trade between our countries, and does not encourage business within the US  :'(

I feel for US citizens if they are going to be continually blocked out of cool technology, that would (rightfully so) be perfectly legal in most/all other countries .

In my situation (and where i THINK) i may come under contradiction of US and UK laws is:
I plan to offer the sale of shares (more accurately "Virtual Shares" ) in my "business" that could then be sold on by the buyer (or they can do as they please with them).
(the shares that people by from us would be bought with BitCoins only)
As far as i am aware, the only UK laws i would need to abide by are "consumer laws/Sale of goods Act" and of course the UK taxation laws.

Would this be different in the US? would i need any special licences/registrations, etc? given that i am a UK business and only selling "virtual shares"?
I wont be specifically targeting any country, but my business/website would be available to anyone in the world, and ideally without any discrimination.

Any help/info anyone can offer is greatly appreciated!

Best Regards
Ford

i see your point/anger, but it is not going to happen, and i also dont think it would be a good thing either.
Change and relaxation to them that are NOT criminals would be much better, as despite opinions, there are lots of good people in the US too.

The people are fair, their state isn't.

It is the same with most/all countries i find (even the countries that are more anti USA (even more so in most cases)).

The people are generally good but the governments that run them are big business and dont want to loose any powers (generally them in government are good too, but as a whole and by trying to ensure things dont change (or to help a powerful minority), makes for some bad derisions).
It is siad we have democracy, but when there are only 2 (possibly idiots) that people can vote for (who are very similar anyhow) how is that giving choice to "the people"

I think Douglas Adams summed things up very well with this quote from Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy :
"To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it.
To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

They said the same thing about the USSR.

It's a different decade and a different Evil Empire this time around, but the ending will be the same.

But wasn't it the USA that "ended" the USSR (unofficially of course!) ;)
Maybe Russia will return the favour now then  ;D

can i prompt of "back on topic" (although it is probably me that took it off topic  :-\) if anyone has an answer to my below question please?

USA lead USSR to crash. But in general unsustainable systems can't last forever.

I think USA will crash by it's own work. Or China's...

No, they were caught completely by surprise by it.

It collapsed because mathematics can't be legislated into obedience.

Disclaimer: IANAL. No legal advice here. None.

Now, the US gov can say you have to comply with this, that, or what have you when serving US clients, but US laws cannot actually be enforced outside of US territory...

...unless the authorities in the third country do the bidding on the US's behalf. Unfortunately, that nasty piece of work Blair-zhnev signed an extradition treaty with the USA based on the presumption of guilt, so if the US accuse you of some serious crime then wham! off you go to their gulag (q.v. Gary McKinnon). That extradition treaty needs to be torn up urgently.

The comparison between the USA and the former Soviet Union are somewhat apt. One is a brutal totalitarian régime... the other's just the former Soviet Union. ;D

If you're operating outside the US and have no assets/servers/accounts in the US then you should just be able to ignore US laws completely, but the UK isn't the best place for doing that, I guess.

A resource on countries that are a little more reluctant to co-operate with Totalitarian Sam (I make no claims of accuracy herein): http://uk.askmen.com/top_10/travel_top_ten_150/176_travel_top_ten.html

Hehe.... that a law abiding UK citizen has to move to Cuba, just so he can set up his new legal UK business and not be persecuted by a country he has never been to (and has no ill intent towards), is a little extreme....   :o

Maybe if the US government it so worried about its citizens using websites that it does not approve of, rather than forcing companies to bar all US citizens, it should look to China, as i think they have cured the problem with the "Great Chinese Fire Wall" and at least the Chinese never pretend that their internet is "uncensored"....

Thanks for the previous info too!

Does anyone know if the US class Virtual Shares (that could be potentially exchanges for anything else (including currency) but not facilitated by me) as currency, or if they are also subject to US money laws?
I wonder this, as some sites that only seem to deal with "virtual shares" seem to have pulled out of the US market.

In theory the answer is no. In practise if the u.s wants you badly they either check first with their good friends in the u.k and if not possible they'll just kidnap you like one can read throughout history.

Ford. Please don't rely on on the internet for your legal advice. If you are really starting a proper business please consult an attorney who specialized in the area of your planned business. Unfortunately this is usually not cheap. Also you seem to be embarking on a financial services type of business. Again this area of business is highly regulated, both in the jurisdiction in which you operate (UK) and in the jurisdiction in which you hope to serve customers/clients (US/UK).  

The US and the UK have high levels of cooperation in most areas of law and regulation so it is not likely that you would be beyond the reach of the US Government if your activity is unlicensed or unregulated and if the level and volume of your activity warranted action on behalf of any enforcement agency.

There is a reason other similar businesses are pulling out of the US. The risks of operating outside of regulation and/or the cost of becoming compliant with all the required laws and regulations far out weight the benefits for a small start up company. This risks include both civil (monetary fines) and criminal (loss of personal freedom) penalties.

You should maybe do a little research about the past bitcoin businesses that may have been great ideas but went wrong badly for either the operators, the users or both.

Extreme cases include the recent Silk Road seizure, and the civil complaint against Trendon Shavers also known as pirateat40 and his Bitcoin Savings and Trust. Nefario's Bitcoin Stock Exchange was another Disaster. Then there is Mybitcoin, Bitcoinica, Bitfoor and the list goes on. All of the cases are well documented and discussed within this forum, reddit and else where around the internet.

There are plenty of successful bitcoin companies and some very interesting (and well funded) startup on the horizon. Unfortunately , for the most part, gone are the days when any coder with a hosted service could spin up a multimillion dollar bitcoin business.
Good luck.

Sorry for being off topic, but I don't like the USA role to be dominant in relation to the USSR/Russia history :)

Despite of the fact that the Cold War was really consuming many resources, the USSR collapsed due to the centrally controlled, planned economy. Although we have a market driven economy since 1991, the other bad thing is still goes on: we sell much more raw resources (oil, wood, e.t.c.) than commodities.

I don't know about UK, but most countries will not extradite from their territory if an act committed is not an offense in this country. For example, if Germany resident was charged in the Saudi Arabia for drinking alcohol or out-marriage sex and runned back to Germany, he will not be extradited.

So, you should abide laws of your own country. If you travel to the U.S., don't hope that IP blocking will save you from prosecution (FBI could just visit your service through proxy and collect enough evidence against you).

At least Pirateat40 is in jail because he actually committed real crime (fraud). (And he was always in the US to begin with, likewise the alleged DPR.)

Ross Ubrecht is in custody having been accused of being Dread Pirate Roberts (DPR) and responsible for the acts outlined in the New York and Deleware complaints.

Trendon Shavers (pirateat40) is not in custody (yet) as current there are only civil charges against him (although he was recently arrested for beating his wife).  Times get tough when the money runs out and the law is on your tail.
http://www.justmugshots.com/texas/collin-county/18816833

http://www.justmugshots.com/img/18816833/lg/trendon-t-shavers.jpg

Hello

Thanks for the advice.

I will, prior to launch, seek "proper" UK legal advice, although i don't think (nor intend) to be an illegal business!
(just for the record, I AM NOT PLANNING ANYTHING LIKE THE SILK ROAD! i am an honest business man!)

Most of what i intend will be perfectly legal in all countries with no need for any regulations/registrations, my only concern is that if i offer Shares in my business/website, will there be any regulations i need to abide by (firstly in the UK, and secondly in other countries. And hopefully these regulations will not be vastly different in the US). where required i will abide by these regulations.

Best Regards
Ford

Again, you should not care about abiding laws of every country in the world, it is absurdly! Following this logic, you should cease all business operations because private entrepreneurship may be illegal entirely in some countries like Cuba and North Korea, so Kim Jong-un may ask your extradition ;D

Ford. What you are describing sounds like a private placement or a public offering.
Both are regulated here in the US and would have similar regulation in the UK unless you are able to secure funds from your personal assets or a loan from family or friends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_placement
http://onswipe.investopedia.com/investopedia/#!/entry/,52292bfdda27f5d9d017f9e2

I'm not suggesting you are planning to conduct an illicit business. The Securities and Exchange Commission was investigating Trendon Shavers for selling "unregistered bitcoin securities" before they determined it was actually an Ponzi  scheme.

Once you raise money for your business what type of business will you conduct. That will also determine other regulations your business activity may fall under.

Thanks for the info!

I have booked myself in with a Solicitor in the UK, i will see what they think.....
I am hoping that if i only offer "virtual shares" that will not carry the same rights that "normal shares" carry (i will of course make this clear) that i may be exempt from many of the regulations.
I am not selling shares in order to fund my business (i can and will do this on my own), i intend it to be more on a co-op basis, so that the users of the site can have a vested interest and/or so that i am not being greedy and keeping it all for myself. As after all it is the users that will "make" the site should it work as i hope (i also think this will keep things in the same spirit that bitcoin does).
Of course my plan may not work, but i think it may be just what bitcoin needs, and would love to see it work, even if i make nothing from it!

Actually, we do need to carry about the "laws", or rather wishes, of everyone in the world.  Just because somebody was born on the other side of a fence doesn't mean they can't come across and slap you upside the head. 

how? its a mayor economy, if it disappears, the world economy including your beloved china will crush,

all of the world will sense china'S nazi ambition and will start protecting themselves from it, and in that process they will call for the USA again.