Bitcoin Forum

With traditional shares, you own a part of the company. You have legally guaranteed protections in place that the board of directors of a company MUST have your best interest at heart at all times, or they go to jail. By us idiots (myself included) investing into ICOs whereby we forfeit all judicial and legislative protections that a company is MANDATED to have our best interests at heart, we essentially take on all the same risks as shareholders do, without any of the benefits. We essentially trust completely private enterprises that they'll always have our best interest at heart as token holders. Stop, pause, and realize how stupid we all are.

Take FUNFAIR for example. This is a huge risk investment with a lot of potential. As an early contributor, you get absolutely no equity, profit, or anything else in the platform, but rather simply the ability to purchase the token that will be used by casinos early. That's it. Investors like us fund companies like this from the ground up, and yet receive absolutely nothing comparable in return in the way of ownership and profit sharing.

Guys, we must all WAKE THE FUCK UP. Honestly. We must unite and STOP this practice whereby we invest in utility tokens. ALL ERC-20 tokens, and platform tokens, should be securities. Nothing else. We should all have ownership in a company we invest in, including sharing its profit.

None of these shit tokens offer any of the reward that we as investors deserve for the risk that we take. Absolutely none, unless you can cite me a specific ICO that gives you legal ownership of the company with the token, then none. The one exception are DAOs. Yes, these do confer you actual ownership, and I wish this is the direction that all ICOs would take, however they don't. Most ICOs are centralized and are not DAOs, and they will give you shit tokens rather than ownership shares that you deserve.

This is a realization we should all make. This practice needs to end.

I disagree, they shouldn't be considered securities.

No one is being forced to invest in ICO's.

There is risk involved in almost everything you do in life, the last thing I want is the US government mandating for ICOs.

Why the word shit coin or shit tokens born? It is because of negative income to those people who invest and purchased tokens. Absolutely not all the time here in cryptocurrency business are gaining all the time, actually this is a business, lets consider also a few losses. So, if we failed sometimes, lets considered it as a sharp tool to become a wise and smart on this business.

You bought it cos you were expecting to make a huge profit by selling the coins somewhere down the road. You do not share the same vision as the company that you bought into but you expect that the company have your best intents.

I think we all enter into any ICO with our eyes open. It is usually declared that it is an utility token or a security token. We are aware and we bought into it.

The risk of ICO is high and we took it cos we want to make a big profit.

Yes some lost money and some made a pile.. but we are fully responsible for our action.

I think the crypto world is a wonderful place and we have access to all the information to decide whether to buy into the ICO or not.

Read the whitepaper properly and invest properly.

Having ownership means nothing if it is a shit company.. I rather own utility tokens in a company with a great concept than shit ownership shares in company that have nothing to offer.

at the first place you are not force to invest to their ICO, they do a crowdfunding to the believers of their token. and also not all erc20 token are shit. look at ethos, dent, denta and many more

Erc20 is a very easy and good way to start a new project on.
U will see in practice once the project develops some will move away from erc20 and move to their own chain for example vechain soon

i dont think all ERC-20 Token are shit, it just the dev and project of the token are shit
Sometimes they care just to collect a money and don't want to make a progress with their project after that the token will become a dead tokens

to get the high reward you should have some balls to invest in the highly speculative crypto world. none is forcing to invest in shit, and you don't need to invest longterm, if we talk about small ICOs

US can't do anything for those are working in another country. They are investing on their own risk said by investing in ico and they agree with all of the risks will be involved in their investment.

The majority of tokens can be considered as security caused by the majority of them don't have utility usage. But will be a very wrong thing to implemented SEC compliance to the all of ico projects around the world.

Not all ERC-20 token are shit. In business we mostly think only about profits but sometimes looses are also inevitable and just because a certain ERC-20 token of certain poorly coordinated project didn't give you any profits does not mean the rest of the other successful ERC20 tokens are also shit

Therefore, I follow ICO always using small capital.
I'd better buy a Coin that is already in top marketcap and I HODL.

Not all ICOs are bad. Moreover, investing in any project, we understand that this is a venture investment. That is, there are high risks and high profits are possible. Everyone knows this beforehand. If you study all information about the project and conduct a thorough analysis, then I think you can find promising projects. And not all erc-20 tokens are bad. This is just a convenient and easy way to start your project. And if it continues to develop well, the project can move to its own blockchain.

I agree with this comment the most. Icos that actually have a working product designed to use your tokens within the platform I think have validity. Not every ico needs their own blockchain. Darico for example runs in ethereum solely because it's a utility token and their programs need tokens to use it. Unlike other coin that Ned their own blockchain

I also agree with the comments, most of the time ERC20 tokens and don't have any value, the value of their existence is just hype and financing, in my opinion, in the case of the more strict law by national governments, and most ERC20 tokens will disappear.

Bingo. The current craze and "we invest in tokens for huge profit" mania is based purely on speculative hype. 10 years from now when it's obvious most of these tokens are only good for utility purposes, their true value will emerge.

very unfair if you blame the token erc20, this is purely a mistake that is from the developer. what we see now is bullshit, ico average just makes the developers rich. that's why many countries are banning ico, because the government wants the best for investors.

if you think ico make a profit, then continue, but if make a loss, then leave it.

Governments don't want what's best for investors. Governments can't tax the majority of ICOs. Governments LOVE ICOs that comply with regulations. Governments want what is best for the government.

Government is the enemy of the people. 99,98% of ICOs are also enemies of the people.

not all tokens erc20 is shit, it depends on the progress made. many tokens begin to be reinforced after ico is finished because the team is trying their best for the investors and some are just leaving them. then before joining the investor should check the ICO well

Do you also realize that the most return these traditional shares give is 10-20% in a year. That too if you are lucky. Now think about the tokens which if you had bough just one year ago, would have given you so much return that you wouldn't had to work again. There are people like you who cant see revolution happening and are fearful and cant do anything themselves and wont let others do too. If you don't trust something or don't like something about it than don't invest in it.

By your own definition, not all ERC-20 tokens are shit,,, they need to be securities to not be shit right? To be honest, I have one ERC20 token that is precisely a security, or at least, when it started out it was supposed to work like one. Of course, if the company just disappeared, I would be left with zero, but they were supposed to distribute profits according to shares of tokens owned. Well, it almost happened, but then they had to change their tokens to utility instead of security, so I sort of got screwed over.

I do not like utility tokens, because they create the use, and none of it is "real".

perfect on that mate,its our freewill joining or investing in ico,no one forces us to participate,meaning what ever happens is our discretion and prerogatives so never blaim the tokens or the platforms,this is the risk of profiteering.you can gain.but you can lose also

Glad to hear you also get it now.

To all the other shit replies: If you invested in Google or any other fundamental tech startup at the time you would have made at least a x10. In Google's case a x30. Ever heard of angel investing? They also return x10 quite frequently, sometimes x100 or x1000. The only difference with ICOs and traditional investments is that we WILL get screwed over eventually with our useless ERC-20 tokens, myself included.

Also don't you dare use the pro-government strawman argument. If you want real decentralized tokens then these ICOs should be launched as proper DAOs. DAOs are fully decentralized and embrace the spirit of the blockchain, whilst conferring actual ownership of the organization with the tokens. Registered companies that are motivated by profit that issue us shitty utility tokens have nothing at all to do with decentralization or any anti-government movement. In fact they will comply with governments if they're forced to. DAOs don't have this issue. The majority of ICOs are not DAOs. Think of better arguments if you don't agree.

Not all ERC-20 shitcoin but majority of token are. It is because it has no high standard requirements in creating token in Ethereum platform.

Exactly. Venture capital experts usually get in right at the so-called ground floor... in terms of stocks/shares, this is even before the IPO stage. I suppose the equivalent for crypto and blockchain ICOs are all those private funding rounds or "private pre-sales". They invest a huge amount, basically like a seed fund, and by the time the IPO or ICO comes out, they own shares at a tiny fraction of the price that even the earliest investor can obtain - very easily this can mean they get x10 or more, just not publicized.

I got burned last year by these ERC20 token investments, I only made two serious investments, and truly believed in the ideas, but I'm really beginning to think now that I got duped. I get what you're saying about DAOs, but ETC holders will forever remind us that even that is a huge screw over potential.

You are blaming tokens for your own lack of understanding about business. A share on a small business may never ever reach a market or you may have to wait for years before it does. Just lear how to choose the RIGHT tokens.

I have much of the same concerns, like with FunFair, there is an additional risk that when it comes to "fund" the casinos, the owners could tap and sell the billions of unsold tokens and not only cut us out of the profits, but flood the market and drive the price down further.  It is a huge risk, but if the done right, and honestly, it could have a huge return.  

But at the end of the day, if you want equity and dividends, there are all sorts of tech company on the NYSE and NASDAQ that offer just that.  If Crypto were exactly like the stock market, I wouldn't be here.  I'd be on eTrade right now.  

The problem isn't that ERC-20 tokens are good or bad. The real problem is that investors are unconscious, greedy and gamblers. I think people who don't have any knowledge or know-how have reduced the quality of the market. If there were really conscious investors in the majority, I believe that we didn't encounter so many scam events.

Let me tell you a secret. Not all shares provide a right to vote.  Sometimes you won't even be able to purchase those coontroll shares. The board of directors determine the company's future. They may decide to pay you more dividends or to waste those money on something that no one needs. You are still not guaranteed to me the main guy in the company.
What about tokens. First of all it is not the fault of ERC-20, you can make your tokens on the other platform. Also ICO is a mix of croudfunding and actual investind. Most ICOs even issue their tokens as a currency for their project. In such cases no one even claims that it should give you any ownership rights for the product.
But it is still obvious that investors want to feel safer. Pretty often the people that rise huge money on ICOs don't even know how to manage his new company and lose much money only because of poor management.
This is not the fault of the token standart. The only thing that  I see for now is to issue  some kind of reputable organisation (that's just my thoughts, I have no idea how it could be reputable from the very begining) that will make something like a private certificate that could be achieved after the deep analysis (maybe that will make ICOs to make better whitepapers). I'm still not sure how it will work but there is no better way.

they are not forcing us to invest in their ICOs and it is up to you if you are willing to invest. many want to take this high risk just to earn profit. the problem now is they are blindly investing in scam that is why they lose money instead of profit. at the end of the day you want to earn money and  by joining ICOs you can earn x2, x3 or more but more risky.

Right. It's their choice of course. But by raising awareness and educating investors better, we can make better demands from companies and invest in better quality/legitimate ICOs which will make the entire alt-coin sphere much better for everyone. Once investors start demanding profit sharing with their tokens, and stop pumping scams, that is the time the mainstream public can finally begin to take tokens seriously and make serious investments.

Agree with this
ERC-20 actually is a good concept that need to be backed by government
IMO before any legalization of ICO, we need to treat it as a VERY HIGH RISK GAMBLE

I do not think that the idea of ​​conducting an ICO is bad. This is a good way to quickly attract large amounts of money to the project and at the same time release tokens for the work of this project. If ICO projects and issued tokens are equated to securities, everything will become very complicated and we will practically lose the decentralized crypto currency in the form as it exists now. The risk in the ICO campaign is huge, but also a huge profit if the project proves successful. Nobody forces anyone to invest in ICO projects. Everyone himself disposes of his own means. If anyone is not sure about the ICO campaign, he may not invest or buy a token already on the market, so fraud will be minimized.

I'm not in favor of what you said about the ERC-20 token because most of the campaign erc-20 tokens are used so how to make this shit coin while it is so used to it so be careful with the ones you are referring to do not discredit a if you do not have enough evidence.

first of all , not all ERC-20 tokens are shit . there are some really valuable projects just search well and you'll see . secondly , you can't compare stock market to cryptocurrency as your investment won't do 2-10x in there . high risk = high rewards

Yes, maybe they are shit. But you have to understand that there you can go with a very low threshold of occurrence, which cannot be done in the main projects that are already stable.               

ERC-20 tokens are not a cryptocurrency - nobody is proposing using them as a cash substitute or even a store of value. What you are receiving is a symbolic token, that took nothing to create, in exchange for funding a company that is giving you no equity stake. You'd literally have to be a moron, or an absolute true believer in their technology willing to DONATE, to do that.

i agree that most people do not realise this but at the same time most of these companies would have gone the venture capital route, how would us layman investors get involved then? so we might not get a share of profits but it gives us an opportunity to invest in something that is somewhat correlated to the value of the company

It is necessary to understand that the certain negative attitude is formed so called  "experts " which quite probably write these statements, not having on hands at all crypto-currency as such:)

None is forcing you to invest in an ICO. They are mostly aimed to those who believe in the potential of the project, with the hopes of it becoming a success, so you can later take your profits.

oh really all erc20 are shit are you sure about that there are alot of better erc20 tokens and you only mention one coin how can you give judgement to all erc20 exist on the market and having no profit why not just get off on the coin your investing switch to promising token like vechain.

Why should they give you a share in their company if their goals and objectives are absolutely not interesting to you. Nobody forces you to invest in the project. And you decide this yourself, to make profit from it. At you the main task is to earn on sale of tokens, instead of to apply for a part of actions in the company.

From mathematical point of view, the fact the you don't own any equity in any of those companies is just another factor that should be considered in expected value equations. So, if you know that there's a non-negligible probability that you might get robbed and you include that probability into your profitability assessment and you still think that investing is smart and profitable, go for it. This is somewhat similar to a situation where professional poker player decides to play on shady unlicensed poker room: he carefully compares the probability of getting robbed and/or cheated to the "juicyness" of games that are being played there and decides accordingly.

One more advantage of ICO investing over traditional security investing is that you don't have to go though a lot of regulatory garbage. Though with all those KYC rules that are implemented nowadays, this is becoming less and less true.

If icos have a working product then they can't be crap by definition. Another thing is the twisted projects, with aggressive marketing.

With ERC-20 tokens you're not expecting to actually own part of the company, they're not stocks, so why would you treat them like shares? You can invest in organizations without buying shares, e.g. bonds, and credit. When investing in ERC-20 based ICOs, you should of course be certain that they have the potential to meet and/or exceed their offer, that way your money will be subject to little risk. Cryptocurrency is still new, it, in and of itself, has still not be properly regulated, so the regulation of ICOs is even less likely.

Some icos are having working product just like tenx with card payment system but due to the visacrest and it needs to issued a new card again. coindash with its platform just like etoro of cryptocurrency, and santiment with market data just like bloomberg version of cryptocurrency. Some must try to make a clarification regaring the result of development progress rather than blame it directly.

Yes this idea is right not all erc-20 based token are shit there stil few erc-20 have been success in the market so dont say "ALL" because this is not true all you need is to find project with intension to create real product not like some promissing project!!!

Is your head really that far in the clouds with investment? It's common knowledge in investment that crowd psychology is what matters, not efficient market hypothesis that you read about in the textbook.

Well, crypto is nothing like traditional shares. It is good that you realize that tokens are not shares, but no one have promise me share of certain ICO, I bet they did not promise you either. We are investing and hope to get good return for our money. Yes the tokens are just a securities.

You misread my post. I didn't say anything about efficient market hypothesis nor crowd psychology. My point is that the fact that you don't own any equity is not inherently good or inherently bad thing, it's just something that should be taken into account when you make your decision. It's just one piece of puzzle that should make you more selective. That's all.

why could you say that ERC20 tokens are shit coins? you don't know much ERC20 if that is your belief and understanding.
more than half of new altcoins in the crypto market today are based on ERC20 platform token and Ethereum blockchain Backbone. therefore it is the most trusted and more secure smart contract blockchain in the market today.
almost all crypto enthusiasts today basically have Ethereum and ERC20 to their wallets and I can prove it right.

ERC-20 is technical standart that has nothing to do with the safety of yours investitions. An official company can give you all guarantees while using ERC-20 tokens.

i think dont all of them))
maybe because that was cryptobase for new coins and many belive in Eth