Bitcoin Forum

Well this is a real newbie question, for which I hope someone can give no-brains response.

Are the funds

1.) lost in limbo
2.) returned to the sender in some way
3.) not possible to send to previously nonexistent address

Thanks!  ;D

Lost forever.

If you mis-type an address, often Bitcoin will catch it. There is a build in check that sees if the address looks right.

it won't send to an invalid address.

it will send to a non-existent address, in which case the coins are fairly much lost forever. there is a (ridiculously) small chance that someone in the future will randomly generate that address and get some free coin through

I think the solution to this is to always copy and paste. I wouldn't ever think of typing one of those bitcoin addresses manually.

Its like fumbling for your house-keys and accidentally dropping a 10 dollar bill while you do so....digital cash is still very much like cash in some very immediate senses.

There is a built in checksum in Bitcoin address.  The odds in mistyping an address and it being a wrong but still valid address are about 1 in 4 billion.

If you type an invalid address the client will prevent you from creating the transaction.  If you are running custom code and not doing validation it is possible to send coins to "nowhere" and make them lost forever.  Just ask Mt. Gox.

If you type a valid not wrong address then the funds will be sent there.  If by pure luck (odds are >2^210 against it) someone has a private key for that address they get your coins.  If not then those coins are lost (unless someone creates a private key in the future for that address which is so unlikely you might as well consider it 0.0%).

i used to think in that case, btc will be refunded  :'(

Refunded by whom?

Here is my favorite address you can use if you want to burn some Bitcoins.  If you send your coins to it they will be lost forever, just like the address says!

http://firstbits.com/1bitcoin = 1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE

So if I re-built my machine, and made note of my address on a text pad, is there any way I can get it back?

If you lose your wallet.dat file you lose any bitcoins in it since you just lost your private keys.  The public address is just that the public address used to send bitcoins to you.  You need the private key(s) to spend/send/access the coins so be sure to back up your wallet.dat file before you lose it!

Okay, one more noobie question, where would I find the wallet.dat file?

Okay, thank you everybody for the help / responses.  It took forever for me to mine 1 darn coin, but at least now I know how the wallet works.  Secure wallet created.  Perhaps somebody would be kind enough to donate a coin that I lost in the void because I was dumb?

1ppF5n4mgdBtQwF8jxb79gZBRGanjXrg6

Thanks everybody!

Don't you think that 1 BTC is pretty good deal as a tuition payment? Sometimes the Void charges much more.

Hypothetical question: If there are 21 million bitcoins and multiple users send 7 million bitcoins to nonactive(bad addresses) wouldnt this drive up the price of the other 14 million coins since a third of the entire currency is out of "circulation?"

I believe so and I think most economists would agree.

However, whatever you do, never ask any economics question in the economics forum as you will just get page after page of people fighting over the definition of the term "money supply".

But, from what I have gathered there this reduces the monetary base and should therefore drive up BTC denominated prices.

If you make a huge bonfire and burn one third of the world's cash, what happens... hypothetically? :D

The system will just create/print more?

With BTC once they are gone they are gone so it is not exactly the same thing.

The price would rise by roughly 1/3rd.  No different than if your bought 1/3rd of all the gold in the world and destroyed it (say shot it into the sun).  Demand would remain the same (maybe increased due to speculation), supply would be reduced by 1/3rd price would rise until it reached equilibrium.  The number of "full face value" units for Bitcoin has no real significance.

Satoshi could have decided to make block reward 50,000,000 coins and a goal of 21 trillion total coins.  Price for 1M coins would be roughly the same a 1 is today.
Alternatively Satoshi to be ultra-nerdy and make everything a fractional unit.    The entire money supply was one Bitcoin.  Block reward would be 0.000002381 each and the "one" BTC would be worth ~ $30M.

Bitcoin is somewhat unique in its perfectly divisibility.  Gold for example is difficult as a medium for exchange.  1 gram is about the smallest coin that is practical and it is about $50.  With very small coins the loss due to abrasion is higher (over time 1 the 1 gram coin will contain less and less grams of gold).  There would be huge cost in minting, issuing, circulating, validating, and replacing an economy based around 1 gram gold coins.  That problem doesn't exist for Bitcoin (or any digital currency, even digital gold).

It isn't really a big thing.

Won't "the system" then own  1/3rd of all money? Man, that sounds even worse then losing a third of all bitcoin :o

I meant that if you destroyed 1/3 of all fiat currency the economic/banking system would just create more fiat currency to meet the demand.  With BTC it is not possible since there is a finite number of coins that can be created.

Well not technically.  Most (all?) national banking systems are based on fractional reserve. It is the demand for DEBT which drives the multiplier and thus money supply (the amount of currency - physical coinage isn't really relevent).    It is possible that demand for debt and demand for money to decouple.   If/when that happens the value of the currency would simply rise.  It would rise against commodities (price of gold falling vs USD but not against EUR for example) and it would rise against other currencies.

Now the central bank MAY decide that this deflation is undesirable and cut interest rates to boost demand for debt but depending on macro economic conditions that may not actually result in increased debt and thus increased money supply.  For example right now interest rates are below 0% (in real terms) and demand for new borrowing is very low.

We're still safe for a while. The smallest denomination is 0.000 000 01 BTC (one satoshi). That means, each bitcoin can be worth a billion smaller units

If it really comes to mass deletion, we still have the technology to make another currency (even billions of currencies), so I don't think there should be problems :)

That limit can also be extended via consensus.  Still even without extension a significant portion of the global economy could transact on a single Bitcoin.

The fear of mass coin destruction, or finite supply are unfounded.

Along similar lines, what happens if I send some bitcoin to a valid address but without the transaction fee and the transaction hasn't been included in any of the blocks so far? Is there any mechanism to undo the transaction?

No.  Eventually it will be included in a block.  The protocol supports versioning to replace a transaction w/ a newer version but that hasn't been implemented in any client yet.

It should run a net-check to make sure the adress exists before actually sending the coin.

The regular client runs a check to make sure that the address entered is a valid bitcoin address, but it's not possible for a client to know if a valid address does not exist.  New addresses are created all of the time, and someone has to send bitcoins to one before it could enter into the blockchain.

The short answer is, all else remaining the same, yes.

Of course, all else does not remain the same, so a little longer answer is, probably.

The odds of entering a non-existent but still valid address are about 1 in 4 billion.  That is a good enough check.  The network has no idea if an address exists or not.

This was an interesting read, so I guess I'm the 1 in a million chance guy.
I sent some btc from BTCe to Crypto Rush...
Well the address must of been valid for the btc was sent.. but never received.
Here is a ss of the transfer in the block chain with the BTCe transaction withdrawal.
Also, you can see the the BTCe was has not been redeemed. Just sitting there.
I have conatacted both exchanges.
BTCe cant help, bitcoins have left.

Crypto Rush claims the address was never a Crypto Rush address. (which could be true on the fact they have gone through wallet upgrades and this could of been a false address I copied and pasted)

Note: always copy and paste, and I did for this transaction.
https://i.imgur.com/jo3JOJu.png?1

If you send coins to invalid address you have lost them. Interesting, that it is even possible to send them to invalid address, why is that ?

Not possible to send

You can't send coins to an invalid address.  You can send coins to a WRONG but valid address.  The network has no way of knowing you don't mean to send coins to valid address A when you create a tx sending coins to valid address A.

There is no such thing as a "false address".  If they provided you that address then it was a valid address.  Period.  If later through incompetence or malfesence they "lost" the private key for that address it doesn't change the fact that they provided you that valid address.  

The network did exactly what you (and indirectly CryptoRush) asked it to.  It sent coins to the valid address provided.   Your issue is with CryptoRush (not BTCe or the bitcoin network).

It would be no different than CryptoRush providing you a PO BOX and telling you to mail some cash.  You mail the cash to the PO Box they provided, and you have delivery confirmation that the cash was delivered. When you ask about it they say "oh sorry that isn't the valid CryptoRush PO Box" and then blaming the US mail for properly delivering the cash exactly where they told you to.

Is there any way you can prove that CryptoRush gave you that specific address?

If I show screenshot of the address in the CryptoRush website, what good would that do. Already confirm that they are liars and cheaters?
I would just like my BTC returned.

Interesting thread, thanks!

Yep, it get's sent back to the sender if the address is invalid but you still lose the transaction fees. But, if the address is registered and you simply typed it wrong then your coins are lost if the person doesn't return them.  ;D

Please don't listen to this person.

He is just making things up completely out of his imagination with no knowledge about how bitcoin actually works.

You're a complete loser if you're able to send to the not existing address - chances you will create an address from your head are slim to say the least.

+1
Registered address? lol  ;D

Lost forever in limbo

It wont send to an invalid address, if u can manipulate the address to look like its valid. Then btc sent to it is lost

You can't send bitcoins to invalid address. If you send coins to wrong address there is no way to get them back.

You can send to wrong bitcoin address but not to invalid address example: below or above allowed numbers of  characters. I think the first "1" character also matters it will became invalid if its not "1". Bitcoin send to wrong cannot be recovered if you don't have the private key.

Good to know. So we should only use copy/paste. But can the scanned QR code have a letter off?

No, a QR code has internal checksums for alignment, and the addresses have internal checksums for input errors.  The odds of getting an internally correct, but still the wrong, address from a QR code scanning is astronomical.

The first askii character denotes the address version.  Currently, Bitcoin only recognizes two address versions, the one that you are familiar with that starts with a "1" and a testing version that starts with an "a" iirc.  The running network just ignores the "a" one unless your node is set to participate in the "testnet".  Future versions of addresses could use different keypair algos, or denote a sub-satoshi value, or have other uses such as denoting an address that can only be verfied with a script.

Great, info. Love the many ways to address, address.

But my coins are still not yet redeemed.