Bitcoin Forum

Any good experiences I can follow? What pitfalls should I avoid (ie don't use mtgox)

I had to answer ye or nah to whether I anticipated incoming international wires when I set up my account.  Might be advisable to  confirm with your bank that everything is groovy here.  This was Wells Fargo and a 'PMA' account.

Also, I set up my current account perhaps 6 months ago.  Things seem to be changing rapidly here in the US, so if I were anticipating a somewhat large wire, I'd double-check that any initial understandings were still valid.

You should have no problem receiving one wire transfer to any personal account in the US.

What exchange were you wiring from?

I have only attempted one incoming wire, and that was from Mt. Gox.  It was over two months ago and (probably needless to say) it has not come through.

I pestered Mt. Gox after several months.  All I got back from them was boilerplate, but it indicated that they had not attempted a wire.  I had asked specifically if they did attempt one and if it was rejected, but again their response was just boilerplate.  I think it highly unlikely that they even attempted.  The amount was for around $5k.

Back in mid->late 2011 I did a lot of out-bound wires.  The were in the $1k-$2k range and all went to Tradehill.  Even though they were quasi-Chilean all of the wires were domestic as I recall.  Tradehill was, like everyone, getting run out of banking relationships regularly.  It's always been a tough row to hoe in Bitcoin-land when it comes to the interface between BTC and fiat.

bump

Guys, surely SOMEBODY must have tried this before? I really need an answer! Does anyone who works at Bitstamp or CampBX have any suggestions?!

I think there may be an inverse relationship between people who dink around with this kind of money and those who dink around on this forum.

*sigh*

I should have gone to one of the conferences. Anyway, I guess I'll keep looking for an answer.

I'd advise trying to go a different route. I didn't have issue receiving multiple $xK & $xxK wires 1-2 years ago, but it's asking for bank desk jockeys to review and analyze your account for anything suspicious to add to the Suspicious Activity Report they'll be filing either way. Unless you're okay explaining everything, best bet, I think, would be trying to break up the transaction to receive physical cash or PMs. (or putting the fiat back into BTC and using that for whatever you're planning to purchase with fiat :p )

Fwiw, Bitfinex did fine processing smaller $xK wire withdrawals to my credit union earlier this year (their USD bank is French, IIRC).

My experience with conferences is limited to the big one in San Jose earlier this year, but it is an even bigger waste of time for obtaining valid information than this forum.  And a lot more expensive.

If you've got high BTC liquidity and the price continues to rise, you may be able to attract the attention of parities who have exeriance with problems of your nature, and some fraction of those will probably be forthright in sharing it.

I believe that at present, the arbitrage opportunities created by external interference is creating opportunities for larger players and has captured their attention.  I anticipate that their efforts will eventually succeed in reducing the disparities in the market place and they will be back in the hunt for new opportunities.

My own situation and frustrations are similar to yours it sounds like although I don't even want USD 50k right now.  This makes it more realistic for me to experiment around with smaller deals.  I don't welcome the hassle, but it's not going to kill me either.

Honestly, I don't mind explaining everything... as long as it would work in the end! What I don't want to do is explain everything and the bank tell me "wow, Bitcoin is so fascinating... we're going to keep your account frozen for a few years while we mull over this amazing new technology"

I don't think they would, but I don't trust them to ask first and try to understand all the regulations before being "safe" and just freezing it right off the bat. Maybe if you hold millions and've been a long-time customer with that bank, they'll ask first, but I don't have that luxury. It's rational behavior and I wouldn't fault them for being overly-cautious, but it's no good for me. Cash or metal in my hand, I can trust.

It's all paranoid FUD speculation, though - I don't think I've heard of anyone having a personal account frozen from an $xxK incoming wire associated with Bitcoin. (cue 5 responses to different, unique cases proving me wrong)

I inquired at a local credit union, telling them what I wanted to do, and they refused to go through with it (Bitcoin is too high risk for them, they said). They thanked me for asking first though! :)

If you are familiar with the precious metal market at all, I find that the best way to cash BTC into $ is via gold/silver depending on how much you are trying to transfer. $50k is actually not too difficult to buy or unload if you are buying 1 Oz gold bars/rounds. Its also far more anonymous that way, as you can sell the gold to a multitude of different places and you are far less likely to have your bank flag you as suspicious.

Interesting. Who knows, maybe I will actually do this. Why do banks not find it suspicious though? If they are asking me where my $50K came from and I say "gold coins" they will just be like "oh cool, you are a sea faring pirate, no problem"? You would think that gold coins would raise flags for precisely reasons of anonymity (even though we obviously don't think it should).

Well first off, Gold is a tangible asset recognized by banks and other institutions that have anti Bitcoin policies (most anti Bitcoin policies have to do with nontangibility and legal gray areas). Precious metal sales are tax free in certain senarios, you would have to look those up for your area. Some places have no tax on Gold sales higher than $500, $1000, or no tax at all. Also, if you are selling to individuals locally, or even to registered and legal dealers, they work in cash. Credit card premiums hugely bite into precious metal sales, since most are based on spot price + a smallish fixed rate, so the standard trade medium is Gold > Cash or check and you could deposit the $ to your bank if you wished from there. Then, if your bank got suspicious over the large trade, its very very easy to say, I sold gold to *insert name* and thats all fine and good. If you have to tell them that you got a large bank wire from an organization that uses Bitcoins, a virtualy currency that they have never heard of, people tend to get a lot more... suspicious.

Gold is an investment that many people hold, so its not uncommon for banks to see large deals for precious metal sales. $50k worth of gold is far from an unsual amount. If you start cashing in tens of millions of dollars worth, they might get suspicious, but $50,000 worth of gold would be something thats in a standard investment portfolio of someone who invests in precious metals.

It may not be a good option for you personally, however I find it to be useful, so its worth looking into.

Bitstamp or Camp-bx+dwolla!

Go on... what is a good bank to use in the US to deposit to from Bitstamp?

Can you suggest a PM supplier that accepts bitcoins?

I would check out Amagimetals.com they are the most reputable BTC Metals dealer, and they have actually pretty kickass prices. I'm not offiliated with them in anyway, but I've ordered from them on a number of occasions, and have been pretty happy with the results.

The only issue I've heard of people having with them, is sometimes it will take a while to ship, a week being the longest its taken for me personally. If I were you, if you decided to go that route (after looking into the rest of the logistics of course) I'd email Amagi's support to make sure what you are thinking of ordering isn't back ordered or anything like that, and ask how long the shipping time will be. I've found that my shipping times have been far better if I'm in communication with their support.

OK, one more question then. How can I figure out the taxes for this? The relevant states for me are Massachusetts and Pennsylvania

I know PA does not have any sales taxes on Precious metals as I've purchased locally from there before, and I just looked up from a Local dealer in Boston, that Mass has a sales tax on Bullion sales under $1000, so either way you are in the green. You do have to pay capital gains taxes, however if you are buying $50,000 worth of gold, and selling it for $50,000 that shouldn't be an issue, since there isn't any capital gain. If theres a small variance, you should also be fine, however if you make $50,000 on a huge gold swing, you will have to pay a tax on the profit.

The reason different states vary as to whether or not they have sales tax, is based on what increments if any they agree that precious metals are an investment. While in PA, they don't tax Percious metals at all, Mass made the decision that its an investment purchase if you buy more than $1000 worth, so there is no sales tax on purchases/sales over $1000 in Mass. The Capital gains tax is similar to any investment such as stocks. You are required to pay I believe its a 20% tax on capital gains. So as I said before, if you buy $50,000 worth of gold, and sell it for $50,000. You will be subject to no taxes. If you buy $50,000 worth of gold and sell it for $60,000 you are required to pay that 20% capital gains tax on the $10,000 you made. If you buy $50,000 and it drops, technically, you could get a tax writeoff.

Source for Mass Sales Tax: http://www.bostonbullion.com/faq.htm#9
"There are NO sales taxes on out of state orders or Massachusetts bullion purchases larger than $1,000."

Source for PA Sales Tax: http://www.jmbullion.com/guide/buying-online-vs-locally/
" For example, JM Bullion is located in Pennsylvania, which doesn’t have sales tax on precious metals sales, thus we never charge any of our customers sales tax."

Source confirming both again: http://preciousmetals.wikia.com/wiki/Bullion_Sales_Tax


Technically, you could do everything off the books anyway, since like I said, Precious metal sales are done in cash, however I'm explaining the legal way to do it, which I'd probably reccomend, since you shouldn't have to pay any taxes anyway.

Thanks. You have been really helpful. I am still going to spend a few more days looking into wire transfer options, but this will be my backup.