|
Title: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: MtFox on October 20, 2013, 01:42:56 PM Consider the dollar.
The dollar is theoretically limited within the subset of United States currency while the concept of national currency itself is only limited by the number of nations on Earth. Now to bitcoin. Like the dollar the bitcoins are theoretically limited in supply. But what if bytecoin comes along, then gigacoin, followed by googlecoin and so fourth? There seems to be no limit on the number of bitcoin imitators possible. While, like dollars, there might be a limited number of bitcoins within the subset of bitcoin, the concept of bitcoin is unlimited unlike the world’s various national currencies. Competition will utterly devalue bitcoin unless it is adopted by particular nations to the exclusion of its competitors, however that is not to say that other nations will not adopt one or more of bitcoin’s competitors to the exclusion of bitcoin .. they most certainly would. And how is that materially different from our current international system of free floating national currencies? [Source: http://polifrogblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/is-bitcoin-really-any-different-not-in.html] Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Seccour on October 20, 2013, 01:57:18 PM Bitcoin :
Bitcoin is decentralized. No or little fees. Every one can create "free" bitcoins by mining. Limited (21 Millions) Dollar : Centralized. High fees. Only bank can create dollar. No limits (They can print all the money they want) And for the other crypto. Yeah the concept of bitcoin is unlimited but bitcoin is limited. The concept of dollar is unlimited too. BUT dollar is unlimited. Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Birdy on October 20, 2013, 02:29:28 PM If you make randomultracoin, can you send those to Bitcoin addresses? Will they appear on other Bitcoin wallets?
(Hint: no) But those freshly printed dollars are like all other dollars and can be used as such. Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: skull88 on October 20, 2013, 03:50:09 PM If they print more euro's the amount of dollars isn't increasing.
So more cryptocurrencies doesn't mean more bitcoins, I can't send my Litecoins to my Bitcoin wallet. ;) Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Varicon on October 20, 2013, 04:12:02 PM Bitcoin is 100% different. Just because someone could make Shitcoin doesn't make Bitcoin any worse.
Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: BitAddict on October 20, 2013, 04:14:12 PM I recommend you to read a little more about bitcoin, you will find it completely different :)
Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: MakeBelieve on October 20, 2013, 04:19:29 PM Bitcoin : Bitcoin is decentralized. No or little fees. Every one can create "free" bitcoins by mining. Limited (21 Millions) Dollar : Centralized. High fees. Only bank can create dollar. No limits (They can print all the money they want) And for the other crypto. Yeah the concept of bitcoin is unlimited but bitcoin is limited. The concept of dollar is unlimited too. BUT dollar is unlimited. These are good points. Op, you have posted this thread although this question has been asked before and answered before. It's no where near the same as FIAT. Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Inkvor on October 20, 2013, 04:28:55 PM the most important thing is annomy and unreverse
Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: CtrlAltBernanke420 on October 20, 2013, 04:37:40 PM What if other countries began adopting their own crypto, IE PeruCoin, ArgentinaCoin, Canadacoin, The USAGODDAMNICANTPRINTTHISCOININFINITE. Considering bitcoin is traded for paper, and a concern of mine, if the US govt wanted a cryptocoin, why would it not create it, buy it up with them printable dollars, making it worth FAR more than bitcoin currently is. Instead of 2billion market cap in 3.5 years, they get to 100billion marketcap in 1 day.
Making 1 satoshi or bernanke worth ~1 US dollar. Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Inkvor on October 20, 2013, 04:39:46 PM it will one day if gor don stop it
Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: knight22 on October 20, 2013, 05:03:48 PM And for the other crypto. Yeah the concept of bitcoin is unlimited but bitcoin is limited. The concept of dollar is unlimited too. BUT dollar is unlimited. Nail it Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: CtrlAltBernanke420 on October 20, 2013, 06:15:14 PM And for the other crypto. Yeah the concept of bitcoin is unlimited but bitcoin is limited. The concept of dollar is unlimited too. BUT dollar is unlimited. Nail it As much as the upside on anything is infinite, you will never see infinite, therefore the amount of dollars is limited. Somehow I am trying to wonder, is there money or wealth that people own that the world has no idea of, IE rothchilds already having trillions of cash in personal accounts/vaults and/or assets. The last i checked the total size of the money supply was less than 10 trillion. yet we have outstanding debts far far beyond that... Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: johnyj on October 20, 2013, 06:35:07 PM The last i checked the total size of the money supply was less than 10 trillion. yet we have outstanding debts far far beyond that... Good question, might be caused by the interest compound effect of those debt Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Elwar on October 20, 2013, 08:32:02 PM The dollar is theoretically limited Like the dollar the bitcoins are theoretically limited in supply. While, like dollars, there might be a limited number of bitcoins WTF??? LOL!?!!!?? Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Kouye on October 20, 2013, 08:33:26 PM The last i checked the total size of the money supply was less than 10 trillion. yet we have outstanding debts far far beyond that... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debtData is a bit old, you can probably double it, now. Funniest entry is probably Liechtenstein. ;D Just... Trash the cash... Bitcoins all the way! Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: allthingsluxury on October 20, 2013, 08:58:29 PM I've ran out of fingers and toes for how many alternate currencies that have been created. So I stopped counting. These have NOT affected Bitcoin. Bitcoin is different.
Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Kouye on October 20, 2013, 11:26:10 PM These have NOT affected Bitcoin. Bitcoin is different. I'd say Bitcoin is more... aside than different. But aside, for sure. ;)Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Mike Christ on October 20, 2013, 11:28:00 PM Lets take Bitcoin...now imagine that it isn't Bitcoin!
Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: btc4ever on October 20, 2013, 11:54:37 PM And here I thought this thread might actually be something interesting such as future bankers using bitcoin as the basis for fractional reserve bank notes and thus inflating the money supply that way... which is almost certain to happen btw.
moral question: is it fraud when a bank lends out using "redeemable" bank notes more than it is able to cover? i suppose it would depend on what exactly the bank note says. For example if it says "redeemable for 10 bitcoin so long as the bank has any left but beware we keep a fractional reserve", then does not seems morally wrong as the holder of the note is clearly warned before accepting. But if it says "redeemable for 10 bitcoin come hell or high water" then that does seem like fraud to me. Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Andreas Schildbach on October 21, 2013, 10:23:43 AM Ah, now I understand why the dollars have "In god we trust" written on them. That's short for "Only god knows if you will get your value back"... (-:
Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: NewLiberty on October 21, 2013, 11:18:54 AM If they print more euro's the amount of dollars isn't increasing. So more cryptocurrencies doesn't mean more bitcoins, I can't send my Litecoins to my Bitcoin wallet. ;) If they print more euros in an effort to boost the eurozone['s exports by devaluing the Euro], then that [printing] will competitively [raise the] The argument that Bitcoin is immune to this sort of thing rests solely on the fact that none of its competitors seem to be actually good right now. Wait until the Bitcoin M0 has 'only' 10% of the crypto market, then say you don't care about 5% swings hitting your wallet. :P Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: mccoyspace on October 21, 2013, 01:05:50 PM Remember that Bitcoin is an internet based protocol. We have seen time and time again a protocol emerge that consolidates, superceeds and becomes a standard.
Yes, people can still use uucp, telnet, gopher and ftp, but http/https has come along and now THAT is the Internet. Bitcoin is THE money protocol. It may not last forever, but it is the best by far right now. It has a long climb ahead. Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: NewLiberty on October 21, 2013, 02:50:47 PM And here I thought this thread might actually be something interesting such as future bankers using bitcoin as the basis for fractional reserve bank notes and thus inflating the money supply that way... which is almost certain to happen btw. moral question: is it fraud when a bank lends out using "redeemable" bank notes more than it is able to cover? i suppose it would depend on what exactly the bank note says. For example if it says "redeemable for 10 bitcoin so long as the bank has any left but beware we keep a fractional reserve", then does not seems morally wrong as the holder of the note is clearly warned before accepting. But if it says "redeemable for 10 bitcoin come hell or high water" then that does seem like fraud to me. A warehouse receipt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warehouse_receipt) is the type that is redeemable come hell or high water. Even these though still bear some counter-party risk. This is common law in many places, in others it is the law by virtue of it being a contract, and is in the Uniform Commercial Code in the US http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/7/7-202 Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: balanghai on October 21, 2013, 02:58:09 PM This seems just an inciting post not really much to be bothered whenever bitcoin is compared to fiat. really.
Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: NewLiberty on October 21, 2013, 03:00:47 PM If they print more euro's the amount of dollars isn't increasing. So more cryptocurrencies doesn't mean more bitcoins, I can't send my Litecoins to my Bitcoin wallet. ;) If they print more euros in an effort to boost the eurozone['s exports by devaluing the Euro], then that [printing] will competitively [raise the] The argument that Bitcoin is immune to this sort of thing rests solely on the fact that none of its competitors seem to be actually good right now. Wait until the Bitcoin M0 has 'only' 10% of the crypto market, then say you don't care about 5% swings hitting your wallet. :P You're not taking into account a series of lags that cascade through the markets. Firstly, if one side prints more of their currency, nobody notices until market sales have been affecting exchange rates for a long time (or they announce it in the next quarterly budget). Merchants look at the historical data and say "oh look, the moving average line suggests that they've been debasing. Time to adjust our prices." But by then the new currency has already paid for a sizeable chunk of imports. The devaluation -- if any -- is probably mostly psychological and would also depend on factors like the flow of activity in the domestic economy, and the visibility of the new cash. Hence, decisions to inflate are likely to done in conjunction with specific projects (and/or sent overseas) where the money will be tied up for as long as possible before eventually trickling back to the rest of the economy. Bitcoin has been 'printing' massively since day one, so why hasn't it devalued? Because the mining overhead gives it value? Well, no. The mining cost is a dead weight that lags behind the value of bitcoins. The value that Bitcoin has gained has been 'taken', at least in part, from other economies such as the US and Eurozone economies. Similarly, NewMoreAwesomeCoin could make its debut and start poaching value from Bitcoin, even though 'NMAC' is the one inflating. In the real world, it happens more quickly than this. Merchants see the costs directly and adjust prices according to their costs, they don't tend to wait on moving averages on a chart. That is for academics who don't really participate in the market much anyway. Nations debase in order to devalue their currency. It is not so much to buy more before people figure that out, because that happens very quickly unless the nation is the direct buyer. The devaluing nation gets the benefit of the reduced value of their currency in trade balances from their exports being cheaper than the exports from other countries, but it is a losing game unless they are purely exporting either finished goods using only domestically produced raw material, or the raw material itself because the parts that are imported cost more to them giving them domestic inflation on anything imported. The reduced value of the currency also makes their debt more easily repayable. Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: hayek on October 21, 2013, 08:22:27 PM There is so much wrong it needs broken down shotgun style
Consider the dollar. Apples to oranges right off the bat Quote The dollar is theoretically limited within the subset of United States currency while the concept of national currency itself is only limited by the number of nations on Earth. Not true. Fractional Reserve banking creates dollars out of thin air in the form of debt. Actually what you said doesn't really make a point. Quote Now to bitcoin. Like the dollar the bitcoins are theoretically limited in supply. But what if bytecoin comes along, then gigacoin, followed by googlecoin and so fourth? There seems to be no limit on the number of bitcoin imitators possible. Bitcoin is limited in supply. Not theoretically. Only X number of bitcoins will ever exist. Alternative crypto currencies do not affect the supply of bitcoin. Quote While, like dollars, there might be a limited number of bitcoins within the subset of bitcoin, the concept of bitcoin is unlimited unlike the world’s various national currencies. All you said is "Once the genie is out of the bottle you can't put it back in." Yeah, once an idea is released to the world it's there. This means nothing. Quote Competition will utterly devalue bitcoin unless it is adopted by particular nations to the exclusion of its competitors, however that is not to say that other nations will not adopt one or more of bitcoin’s competitors to the exclusion of bitcoin .. they most certainly would. Competition will devalue bitcoin if the market determines other cryptos to be of greater value. That's how competition works. Whether a nation state adopts it or not has little to do with it. Quote And how is that materially different from our current international system of free floating national currencies? Bernanke isn't controlling the supply of bitcoin? You can't print more bitcoin to fund a war? The finite supply makes the demand the driving factor behind bitcoin and it will continue to gain in value as adoption increases. No one can ever take your bitcoin from you unless you let them. No one will ever know how many bitcoin you own unless you tell them. You're free to choose whether or not you participate in the system, there is no gun to your head forcing you. That's a start. I think you should start learning up on what currency actually is before trying to make comparisons between fiat and bitcoin Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: Luckybit on October 21, 2013, 10:45:31 PM Consider the dollar. The dollar is theoretically limited within the subset of United States currency while the concept of national currency itself is only limited by the number of nations on Earth. Now to bitcoin. Like the dollar the bitcoins are theoretically limited in supply. But what if bytecoin comes along, then gigacoin, followed by googlecoin and so fourth? There seems to be no limit on the number of bitcoin imitators possible. While, like dollars, there might be a limited number of bitcoins within the subset of bitcoin, the concept of bitcoin is unlimited unlike the world’s various national currencies. Competition will utterly devalue bitcoin unless it is adopted by particular nations to the exclusion of its competitors, however that is not to say that other nations will not adopt one or more of bitcoin’s competitors to the exclusion of bitcoin .. they most certainly would. And how is that materially different from our current international system of free floating national currencies? [Source: http://polifrogblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/is-bitcoin-really-any-different-not-in.html] Value and price are not the same thing. The price will end up where it ends up and other coins will go up and down just like with Forex. The value will be what matters most. What can you do with it? Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: torry28 on October 21, 2013, 10:50:03 PM Ah, now I understand why the dollars have "In god we trust" written on them. That's short for "Only god knows if you will get your value back"... (-: The "backed by gold" had to be replaced with "In god we trust" :D After all, it works, everybody trust it is backed by something :D Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: imrer on October 21, 2013, 11:15:29 PM In my opinion you don't get it at all. There are plenty of areas where bitcoin is much better than fiat money. Decentralization is one example. Limited number another.
Title: Re: Is Bitcoin really any different? Not in the long run. Post by: evansearle42 on October 22, 2013, 01:21:47 AM Consider the dollar. The dollar is theoretically limited within the subset of United States currency while the concept of national currency itself is only limited by the number of nations on Earth. Now to bitcoin. Like the dollar the bitcoins are theoretically limited in supply. But what if bytecoin comes along, then gigacoin, followed by googlecoin and so fourth? There seems to be no limit on the number of bitcoin imitators possible. While, like dollars, there might be a limited number of bitcoins within the subset of bitcoin, the concept of bitcoin is unlimited unlike the world’s various national currencies. Competition will utterly devalue bitcoin unless it is adopted by particular nations to the exclusion of its competitors, however that is not to say that other nations will not adopt one or more of bitcoin’s competitors to the exclusion of bitcoin .. they most certainly would. And how is that materially different from our current international system of free floating national currencies? [Source: http://polifrogblog.blogspot.com/2013/08/is-bitcoin-really-any-different-not-in.html] Do you know that the government can print unlimited money? They just need to press the "print" button. |