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Title: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: toast on July 26, 2011, 05:55:33 PM Suppose I make a site where users gamble their bitcoins. Suppose it gets popular. Should I go ahead and get hosting outside of the US? What exactly do gambling laws say about virtual currencies?
Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: BillX on July 26, 2011, 05:57:46 PM You need to speak to an attorney. Don't be stupid and take legal advice forum an online forum.
Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: indio007 on July 26, 2011, 06:04:50 PM Why would he speak to attorney? To get fleeced?
Send a letter to your State AG and The US AG and ask what their legal position is. I'm sure they won't claim an interest until you convert into gov't issued currency. Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: Rassah on July 26, 2011, 06:09:02 PM SecondLife used to have in-world casinos that let you gamble using SecondLife's currency. They eventually had to ban that, because there was an obvious link between exchanging USD for SLL and back, just to gamble. Though the issue there could have been that all of SecondLife's servers are residing within US territories, or that SecondLife SLL currency is still minted and owned by a US corporation.
Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: BillX on July 26, 2011, 06:10:19 PM Why would he speak to attorney? To get fleeced? I would much rather be "fleeced" then fined or jailed before starting a venture of borderline legality. Send a letter to your State AG and The US AG and ask what their legal position is. I'm sure they won't claim an interest until you convert into gov't issued currency. Your AG is just going to tell you the law. Your attorney is going to tell you how to apply the law to your benefit. Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: BillX on July 26, 2011, 06:13:12 PM SecondLife used to have in-world casinos that let you gamble using SecondLife's currency. They eventually had to ban that, because there was an obvious link between exchanging USD for SLL and back, just to gamble. Though the issue there could have been that all of SecondLife's servers are residing within US territories, or that SecondLife SLL currency is still minted and owned by a US corporation. Wow, that was back in 2007 before I was an SL resident. If I remember right it was a US government concern only. I could very easily be wrong on that. Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: indio007 on July 26, 2011, 06:21:03 PM Why would he speak to attorney? To get fleeced? I would much rather be "fleeced" then fined or jailed before starting a venture of borderline legality. Send a letter to your State AG and The US AG and ask what their legal position is. I'm sure they won't claim an interest until you convert into gov't issued currency. Your AG is just going to tell you the law. Your attorney is going to tell you how to apply the law to your benefit. For forgetting that mens rea (criminal intent) is an element of all crime. If the top law enforcement official is ambiguous or silent, you have a rock solid legal defense. Not to mention estoppel. Quote The Prudden court also stated that: Silence can only be equated with fraud where there is a legal or moral duty to speak or where an inquiry left unanswered would be intentionally misleading. From the facts we find that the agent's failure to apprise the appellant of the obvious criminal nature of this investigation was a sneaky deliberate deception by the agent under the above standard and a flagrant disregard for appellant's rights. The silent misrepresentation was both intentionally misleading and material. Any findings to the contrary under the facts of this case are clearly erroneous. United States v. Reynolds, 511 F.2d 603 (5th Cir. 1975); United States v. Gunn, 428 F.2d 1057 (5th Cir. 1970). Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: BillX on July 26, 2011, 06:29:25 PM For forgetting that mens rea (criminal intent) is an element of all crime. If the top law enforcement official is ambiguous or silent, you have a rock solid legal defense. Not to mention estoppel. But now you have a criminal case all because you wanted to save about $250 in consultation fees because you don't like lawyers? Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: sadpandatech on July 26, 2011, 06:34:08 PM SecondLife used to have in-world casinos that let you gamble using SecondLife's currency. They eventually had to ban that, because there was an obvious link between exchanging USD for SLL and back, just to gamble. Though the issue there could have been that all of SecondLife's servers are residing within US territories, or that SecondLife SLL currency is still minted and owned by a US corporation. Wow, that was back in 2007 before I was an SL resident. If I remember right it was a US government concern only. I could very easily be wrong on that. Partly right that it was a US gov concern in that they included it in their 'protect American's money from gambling' package. On Rassah's point though the difference here is that someone starting a bitcoin casino would not have the connection of also being the same entity in charge of creating and exchanging said currency for USD. In my personal non-legal advice opinion, as long as said casino operator leaves that part disconnected then they should be fairly safe from said clauses in US law. As others have said though, if you wish to under take any kind of legitimate venture then you should consult with someone who is well versed in the laws associated with such a venture.. Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: foggyb on July 26, 2011, 06:38:30 PM For forgetting that mens rea (criminal intent) is an element of all crime. If the top law enforcement official is ambiguous or silent, you have a rock solid legal defense. Not to mention estoppel. But now you have a criminal case all because you wanted to save about $250 in consultation fees because you don't like lawyers? ........there is no age or IQ check to register for the forum. Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: BillX on July 26, 2011, 07:13:50 PM For forgetting that mens rea (criminal intent) is an element of all crime. If the top law enforcement official is ambiguous or silent, you have a rock solid legal defense. Not to mention estoppel. But now you have a criminal case all because you wanted to save about $250 in consultation fees because you don't like lawyers? ........there is no age or IQ check to register for the forum. Golly, I thought everyone here graduated from either Harvard or Yale? Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: indio007 on July 26, 2011, 07:22:27 PM I take it neither of you know that pro se defendants win more felony cases at trial and on appeal than defendants represented by lawyers.
A lawyers duty to his client is not the primary , secondary or even tertiary duty. Taking a lawyer makes you a wad of the court. It's not just the money although that's a factor for what I consider a waste. Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: BillX on July 26, 2011, 07:41:14 PM I take it neither of you know that pro se defendants win more felony cases at trial and on appeal than defendants represented by lawyers. Calm down there Jethro. I know you don't like attorney's at all and how angry it makes you. Come on down the hall with me. We've got a nice soft quiet room waiting there for you. Just need those shoelaces and your belt first. There we go. The Doctors will be in shortly....A lawyers duty to his client is not the primary , secondary or even tertiary duty. Taking a lawyer makes you a wad of the court. It's not just the money although that's a factor for what I consider a waste. Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: done on July 26, 2011, 08:44:49 PM What is the legality if someone gambles with socks? 8) If done correctly the governments will have no ability to abuse their powers in this area like they do in so many other areas.
Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: bitcoinminer on July 26, 2011, 09:00:47 PM Can I gamble on your site for bitcoins, and have them automatically converted to drugs and hookers? CasinoRoad? Or SilkCasino? The profit potential is ass-tronomical.
Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: ctoon6 on July 26, 2011, 10:01:31 PM make it a tor hidden service. that way you dont know them, and they dont know you, nobody knows anybody.
Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: done on July 26, 2011, 10:27:08 PM Suppose I make a site where users gamble their bitcoins. Suppose it gets popular. Should I go ahead and get hosting outside of the US? What exactly do gambling laws say about virtual currencies? I think the government will view gambling for bitcoins the same as gambling for casino chips. If it is legal to have a casino where you are, only then can you have a bitcoin casino. Getting casino chips require you giving the casino fiat paper. Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: Atdhe on July 26, 2011, 10:40:32 PM I am professional gambler.
The problem in the USA is UIGEA law. USA did not ban offshore gambling, but they ban transactions from/to offshore sites. I am sure that they will somehow apply or adjust the stupid law even to this. On the other side they will have big problems to track it. They were able to shut down Neteller and other ewallets, bc they were companies. I would be carefully optimistic about this. If Bitcoin makes it thru we can see hysteria bigger than with drugs and child abusing together. Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: BTCSports on July 27, 2011, 02:20:22 AM We see the legal precedent for gambling for bitcoins as being set, or at least guided, by Zynga and their Zynga Poker.
You can read our position here, http://btcsportsbetting.com/is-it-legal Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: Atdhe on July 27, 2011, 03:26:11 AM GL BTCsports
I have few questions if you care... Will you start with affiliate program? I do not see your lines - why? Are you backed by some sportsbook (answer YES/NO if name is not possible)? If NO, what is your experience with sportsbetting/bookmaking? Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: BTCSports on July 27, 2011, 03:30:00 AM GL BTCsports I have few questions if you care... Will you start with affiliate program? I do not see your lines - why? Are you backed by some sportsbook (answer YES/NO if name is not possible)? If NO, what is your experience with sportsbetting/bookmaking? Will you start with affiliate program? Yes we have one, it is not advertised. I do not see your lines - why? We have a guest account available for this purpose. BTCGuest1/guest1 Are you backed by some sportsbook (answer YES/NO if name is not possible)? Yes Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: Atdhe on July 27, 2011, 03:38:58 AM Are you backed by some sportsbook (answer YES/NO if name is not possible)? Yes wowthanks for answers Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: linenoise on July 27, 2011, 10:20:01 AM You can kind of gamble legally online in 38 some states, if it's a game of skill. VirginGaming.com lets you gamble on your ability to beat someone with online games - mostly EA sport titles. If the virgin media company is backing this then you know their lawyers think it's legal. Although I don't see any poker games being played at virgingaming, even tho poker is a game of skill.
Title: Re: gambling for bitcoins: is there any legal precedent? Post by: Atdhe on July 27, 2011, 01:42:06 PM Gambling is not illegal (mostly) even when people think it is. It is funding of gambling that is the problem.
If the system can avoid problems with funding (and BTC allows hassle free transfers), then opinions of lawyers are unimportant. |