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Title: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: Denicen on July 28, 2011, 06:42:39 PM It seems to me that the libertarian/anarcho-whatever ideology hinges on a couple of key ideas. The most important in my view is that every individual has inherent rights to security, self-determination and property (unless of course that individual violates the rights of others).
I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur. However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice? Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: rainingbitcoins on July 28, 2011, 06:46:20 PM I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur. Mutually Assured Destruction doesn't apply to regular people with handguns. Cite: every street gang ever Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 28, 2011, 06:48:07 PM I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur. Mutually Assured Destruction doesn't apply to regular people with handguns. Cite: every street gang ever That will taper of very quickly. Cite: Charles Darwin. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: JoelKatz on July 28, 2011, 06:48:59 PM Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur. I can't think of any practical scenario where every individual could defend themselves, even against all the other similarly-armed individuals acting together. Are you imagining a scenario where every individual has sufficient nuclear weapons to blow up the entire world? I don't think people would ever let such a situation happen because one crazy person would end human life.However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice? I can't imagine a scenario where every human is capable of defense such that no human is capable of offense. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: rainingbitcoins on July 28, 2011, 06:56:48 PM That will taper of very quickly. Cite: Charles Darwin. New violent crazy people are born every day. :) And any system that breeds poverty will always breed crime. Here in the U.S. we lock up more of our own people than any other country on Earth, yet our crime rates are still sky high when compared to anything that's not a Third World hellhole. "you know you've got to have the Police because if there were no police, look at what you'd be doing to Yourselves -- you'd be killing each other if there were no police! But the Reality is the police become necessary in human society only at that junction In human society where it is split between those who have and those who ain't got. " --Chairman Omali Yeshitela, as sampled in Police State by Dead Prez: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c_UdWo4Zek Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: TheGer on July 28, 2011, 06:59:25 PM How about we consider the more sensible assumption that if one can protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion one can also protect their property in the same fashion. In the context of you proposal this is the logical extension, therefore making your question moot.
End of thread or modify your question to support a more common sense approach to the issue. "However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property." It seems to me that the libertarian/anarcho-whatever ideology hinges on a couple of key ideas. The most important in my view is that every individual has inherent rights to security, self-determination and property (unless of course that individual violates the rights of others). I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur. However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice? Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: Denicen on July 28, 2011, 07:08:18 PM Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur. I can't think of any practical scenario where every individual could defend themselves, even against all the other similarly-armed individuals acting together. Are you imagining a scenario where every individual has sufficient nuclear weapons to blow up the entire world? I don't think people would ever let such a situation happen because one crazy person would end human life.However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice? I can't imagine a scenario where every human is capable of defense such that no human is capable of offense. Ok, let's say that everyone has some sort of suit that makes it impossible for any other person or group of people to harm them in any way. I agree that it is extremely unlikely to ever be possible, but I am just using it as what could be considered an ideal society for a libertarian. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: barbarousrelic on July 28, 2011, 07:08:33 PM I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur. Mutually Assured Destruction doesn't apply to regular people with handguns. Cite: every street gang ever That will taper of very quickly. Cite: Charles Darwin. "Very quickly," from an evolutionary standpoint, means 'just a few million years.' Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: Denicen on July 28, 2011, 07:12:02 PM How about we consider the more sensible assumption that if one can protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion one can also protect their property in the same fashion. In the context of you proposal this is the logical extension, therefore making your question moot. End of thread or modify your question to support a more common sense approach to the issue. "However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property." It seems to me that the libertarian/anarcho-whatever ideology hinges on a couple of key ideas. The most important in my view is that every individual has inherent rights to security, self-determination and property (unless of course that individual violates the rights of others). I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur. However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice? If this were the case, what would prevent me from "protecting" property that belongs to someone else? How does someone adequately say that some piece of property belongs to them? As I said, it would only exist as an agreement. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 28, 2011, 07:15:37 PM That will taper off very quickly. Cite: Charles Darwin. New violent crazy people are born every day. :) And any system that breeds poverty will always breed crime. Here in the U.S. we lock up more of our own people than any other country on Earth, yet our crime rates are still sky high when compared to anything that's not a Third World hellhole. Agreed, but I am of the opinion that violent, crazy people are made, not born, and that with the proper incentives, and the removal of our 'criminal colleges', that production rate can be brought WAY down. I also contend that the removal of taxation and minimum wage would drastically reduce the amount of poverty, as well, further reducing the production rate. "Very quickly," from an evolutionary standpoint, means 'just a few million years.' I'm using it more on the scale of 'the antibacterial resistant bacteria developed very quickly'. ;) Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: Denicen on July 28, 2011, 07:22:42 PM How about we consider the more sensible assumption that if one can protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion one can also protect their property in the same fashion. In the context of you proposal this is the logical extension, therefore making your question moot. End of thread or modify your question to support a more common sense approach to the issue. "However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property." It seems to me that the libertarian/anarcho-whatever ideology hinges on a couple of key ideas. The most important in my view is that every individual has inherent rights to security, self-determination and property (unless of course that individual violates the rights of others). I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur. However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice? Nevermind, just thought about it some more and you are right. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: rainingbitcoins on July 28, 2011, 07:29:39 PM Quote Agreed, but I am of the opinion that violent, crazy people are made, not born, and that with the proper incentives, and the removal of our 'criminal colleges', that production rate can be brought WAY down. Maybe, but as long as Americans value bloodlust and revenge over concrete and verifiable results, that's never going to happen. And we seem to be heading in the opposite direction from that anyway. Joe Arpaio's tent city jail in Arizona has been described as having even worse conditions than Third World jails if you can imagine that. Quote I also contend that the removal of taxation and minimum wage would drastically reduce the amount of poverty, as well, further reducing the production rate. If we could depend on businesses to provide a non-poverty wage for their workers, we wouldn't have a minimum wage to begin with because it'd be unnecessary. People making poverty-level wages now aren't going to get out of poverty if you reduce those wages even further. Some guy who's trying to decide whether he wants to sell dope or make $7 an hour at McDonalds is going to freaking run for those drugs if that 7 turns into a 5 or a 4. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 28, 2011, 07:37:14 PM If we could depend on businesses to provide a non-poverty wage for their workers, we wouldn't have a minimum wage to begin with because it'd be unnecessary. People making poverty-level wages now aren't going to get out of poverty if you reduce those wages even further. Some guy who's trying to decide whether he wants to sell dope or make $7 an hour at McDonalds is going to freaking run for those drugs if that 7 turns into a 5 or a 4. Agreed, but keep in mind that in Libertopia or AnCapistan, Drugs would be a perfectly legitimate business, given the same protections as any other voluntary enterprise, and thus, not an inducement to violent crime. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: rainingbitcoins on July 28, 2011, 07:45:41 PM Agreed, but keep in mind that in Libertopia or AnCapistan, Drugs would be a perfectly legitimate business, given the same protections as any other voluntary enterprise, and thus, not an inducement to violent crime. Oh yeah, that's true. I somehow managed to forget about one of the only parts of libertarianism that's actually a great idea. All drugs should be legal, especially since the vast majority of them are less dangerous than alcohol anyway. Well, you can replace drugs with bank robbery or kidnapping for profit or whatever. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 28, 2011, 07:50:16 PM Agreed, but keep in mind that in Libertopia or AnCapistan, Drugs would be a perfectly legitimate business, given the same protections as any other voluntary enterprise, and thus, not an inducement to violent crime. Oh yeah, that's true. I somehow managed to forget about one of the only parts of libertarianism that's actually a great idea. All drugs should be legal, especially since the vast majority of them are less dangerous than alcohol anyway. Well, you can replace drugs with bank robbery or kidnapping for profit or whatever. Bank robbery would be tantamount to suicide. Kidnapping not much better. Smart kids would know that, stupid ones would improve the gene pool by exiting. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: Hawker on July 28, 2011, 08:24:19 PM Somalia is a good example of a libertarian utopia. No state; no restrictions and everyone free to live as they choose.
Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: NghtRppr on July 28, 2011, 08:33:27 PM Libertarianism isn't Utopian. What's Utopian is trying to protect yourself from criminals by creating a monopoly on violence while expecting criminals not to take control of that monopoly. What's Utopian is letting the state be the judge of how much authority it has while expecting it not to overstep its bounds. What's Utopian is thinking that people are incapable of governing themselves but are capable of governing others. Libertarians are well in touch with reality, which is why we strive for changes that can have some realistically stable outcomes. Overthrowing evil empires with bloody revolutions only to allow them to build back up again, thinking that one can give others the right to do something one cannot do, thinking that extortion and payment for services rendered are the same, thinking that secession and emigration are the same, those are the products of delusion. No, we're wide awake.
Somalia is a good example of a libertarian utopia. No state; no restrictions and everyone free to live as they choose. Right, because Somalia was full of thriving metropolises until it became stateless. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: Hawker on July 28, 2011, 08:45:22 PM Whenever Libertarians say they have a policy idea that will end all wars, hunger and social problems, it turns out the model they are proposing is Somalia. It doesn't matter what it was like before it because a libertarian utopia; what counts is that all the stuff you guys want in America has already been done in Somalia.
Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: NghtRppr on July 28, 2011, 08:52:29 PM It doesn't matter what it was like before... Yes, it does. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 28, 2011, 08:56:23 PM Whenever Libertarians say they have a policy idea that will end all wars, hunger and social problems, it turns out the model they are proposing is Somalia. It doesn't matter what it was like before it because a libertarian utopia; what counts is that all the stuff you guys want in America has already been done in Somalia. So, Where are the private defense firms? All I see are protection rackets. Where are the Arbitration contracts? All I see is Law of the Jungle. Where is the Anarchy? All I see are a bunch of petty tyrants. Anarchy != Chaos. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: Hawker on July 28, 2011, 10:31:49 PM A militia is a private defence firm. Since there is no state, there is no law so all arbitration is done with guns. Its truly a libertarian utopia.
Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 28, 2011, 10:44:30 PM A militia is a private defence firm. Since there is no state, there is no law so all arbitration is done with guns. Its truly a libertarian utopia. This statement alone shows your ignorance in... well, just about everything. Let's shred it to pieces, shall we? "A militia is a private defence(sic) firm." No, A militia is a personal army, especially when run by a petty little tyrant warlord. "Since there is no state, there is no law so all arbitration is done with guns." Arbitration is not done with guns. Do a little reading. (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Arbitration) "truly a libertarian utopia." Time and again, we say: "We don't want Utopia. We know we can't achieve Utopia. We just want an end to coercion." To which you inevitably point at Somalia and say, "There is your Utopia", Just because it has no State. Might as well point to the Marianas Trench. No State there, either. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: josell on July 28, 2011, 11:14:52 PM If I live in an anarchist country, shall I go through left road or right road? How would decide it? If there is no law, and I cant do a contract with every person on road, then what shall I do? if we make a law, then that country would not be anarchist.
If we think in anarchist "laws" as colosal contracts, then there would be a democracy by definition, not anarchism. If I cant hurt someone else, then there is a law: not hurt anyone else. However, if there is no police or military, who wouod prevent me from hurting someone else? It seems very contradictory by itself. If I make a contract to have sex with a children of 5 years, society can think about it like cohesion. However, who determinate what is the age of consent? Anarchists people prove that, instead of acknowledging their mistakes, they prefer to attribute them to others (society, government). The system is not perfect, it is rotten, but it have improved a lot through history and it will improve more if we want. Of course, many personal choices would not be determined by government, but some things have to. Human nature is about community and laws. Without them, there would not be standars, would not be peace, would not be justice. Would not be civilization. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: NghtRppr on July 28, 2011, 11:26:39 PM If I live in an anarchist country, shall I go through left road or right road? How would decide it? If there is no law, and I cant do a contract with every person on road, then what shall I do? If you come in my house, you have to take off your shoes. If you drive on my roads, you have to drive on the right side. If I cant hurt someone else, then there is a law: not hurt anyone else. There is no law saying you can't punch me in the face. There is also no law saying that my hired security guards can't punch you back twice as hard. However, if there is no police or military, who wouod prevent me from hurting someone else? There are no police in Disney World either. Try to start something there though and you will find yourself surrounded by ducks and mice packing guns. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: josell on July 28, 2011, 11:27:19 PM Somalia: an example of an anarchist country. Yes, i know it is the Vatican of the anarchists. It is beautiful.
If you want to fuck your country with anarchism, go to somalia and learn about it. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: NghtRppr on July 28, 2011, 11:28:41 PM Somalia: an example of an anarchist country. That damage was done while there was still a government. Fail. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 28, 2011, 11:33:47 PM There are no police in Disney World either. Try to start something there though and you will find yourself surrounded by ducks and mice packing guns. I had a nice long post typed, and then I saw this. /thread. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: josell on July 28, 2011, 11:43:14 PM There are no police in Disney World either. Try to start something there though and you will find yourself surrounded by ducks and mice packing guns. So anarchists promote landowner (and therefore slavery, because every one have their own laws in that dystopia)If someone kill other in disney, there would not be police nor judgment? There would be government involven... Sorry, your example is wrong. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 28, 2011, 11:45:22 PM So anarchists promote landowner (and therefore slavery, because every one have their own laws in that dystopia) If someone kill other in disney, there would not be police nor judgment? mmm... Sorry, your example is wrong. You know 'dystopia', but not 'arbitration'? ...interesting schooling you've had. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: josell on July 28, 2011, 11:50:21 PM So anarchists promote landowner (and therefore slavery, because every one have their own laws in that dystopia) If someone kill other in disney, there would not be police nor judgment? mmm... Sorry, your example is wrong. You know 'dystopia', but not 'arbitration'? ...interesting schooling you've had. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 28, 2011, 11:57:30 PM arbitration need arbitrators; even they have to have a law for reference. If a killer would not be recurring to arbitration, and if there is no law nor police, no one can force them. So, no justice. Ahh... No bigger thugs, to push people around, so, no justice, eh? keep in mind that that whole 'can't force' thing cuts both ways, up to and including food, shelter, and clothing. Someone who refuses arbitration would be very far up shit creek, with no paddles. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: josell on July 29, 2011, 12:10:51 AM arbitration need arbitrators; even they have to have a law for reference. If a killer would not be recurring to arbitration, and if there is no law nor police, no one can force them. So, no justice. Ahh... No bigger thugs, to push people around, so, no justice, eh? keep in mind that that whole 'can't force' thing cuts both ways, up to and including food, shelter, and clothing. Someone who refuses arbitration would be very far up shit creek, with no paddles. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 29, 2011, 12:16:34 AM In social issues, however, many people are involved and affected, and therefore, we need standards in those cases. Standards != Laws. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: josell on July 29, 2011, 12:23:44 AM In social issues, however, many people are involved and affected, and therefore, we need standards in those cases. Standards != Laws. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 29, 2011, 12:26:01 AM In social issues, however, many people are involved and affected, and therefore, we need standards in those cases. Standards != Laws. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: josell on July 29, 2011, 12:28:28 AM In social issues, however, many people are involved and affected, and therefore, we need standards in those cases. Standards != Laws. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 29, 2011, 12:35:05 AM In social issues, however, many people are involved and affected, and therefore, we need standards in those cases. Standards != Laws. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: The Script on July 29, 2011, 06:32:13 AM I don't even know why you guys bother correcting this guy. The irony is earlier today I just wrote a post about how I constantly get straw-manned when I talk about Somalia. It gets really old and really irritating after a while.
Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 29, 2011, 06:52:10 AM I don't even know why you guys bother correcting this guy. The irony is earlier today I just wrote a post about how I constantly get straw-manned when I talk about Somalia. It gets really old and really irritating after a while. If you hit every straw man with a Wikipedia article, either they shut up or actually learn what's going on. win/win.Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: The Script on July 29, 2011, 06:57:22 AM I don't even know why you guys bother correcting this guy. The irony is earlier today I just wrote a post about how I constantly get straw-manned when I talk about Somalia. It gets really old and really irritating after a while. If you hit every straw man with a Wikipedia article, either they shut up or actually learn what's going on. win/win.Hahaha. Good on you, then. Carry on. :) Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: Babylon on July 29, 2011, 05:21:12 PM How about we consider the more sensible assumption that if one can protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion one can also protect their property in the same fashion. In the context of you proposal this is the logical extension, therefore making your question moot. End of thread or modify your question to support a more common sense approach to the issue. "However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property." It seems to me that the libertarian/anarcho-whatever ideology hinges on a couple of key ideas. The most important in my view is that every individual has inherent rights to security, self-determination and property (unless of course that individual violates the rights of others). I want you to consider a scenario: Imagine that every individual had the means to protect themselves from any physical attack, kidnapping and therefore coercion. This seems, in theory, to be the ideal for a libertarian. No one would be able to harm you and you also could harm no other individual; no violent crime of any nature could occur. However, consider for a moment what that would mean for property. There would be no physical means to preventing theft, and property would only be able to exist as an agreement (Don't steal any of my shit and I won't steal yours). Would this reduce property to a theoretical idea that would not actually exist in practice? You presume that those with property can protect themselves and those without property cannot. For how can you protect property aside from by projecting force onto those that wish to take it? Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: Reikoku on July 29, 2011, 06:02:35 PM Somalia is such a horribly flawed argument that I don't even know where to begin. First of all, I guess, the best idea would probably be some context.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that you can't compare a East African nation which has been at constant civil war with would-be governments for the past two decades with a thriving developed state, so let's start by drawing our comparison between Somalia now and Somalia in 1991 when it had a state. What's changed? Well according to this article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12285365), much has changed. This table is sourced with data from the BBC article linked:
Aside from the drop in access to safe water which is clearly a bad thing, I would say that Somalia has actually improved in its stateless condition. The average citizen is three times wealthier than he was in 1991, even accounting for inflation, he is twice as wealthy. He will live four years longer than he would have in 1991, he is 50% more likely to be able to read and write than he was in 1991. These are not signs of a country on the decline. Here are some other choice quotes about Somalia from the article: 1. "Common sense dictates that security and stability are the necessary preconditions to economic development. Since 26 January 1991, most of Somalia has had neither, yet the economy has not only been resilient, some sectors have shown remarkable growth." 2. "now someone can make a mobile call from anywhere in the country. There are nine networks to choose from and they offer services from texting to mobile internet access." Peter Little, in his 2003 book 'Somalia', notes that "there are still fees to be paid to greedy faction leaders and militia at ports and roadblocks, but levels of taxation and trade restrictions are considerably below what they were pre-1991". Amoud University (http://www.icpsr.org.ma/?Page=showUniversity&UniversityID=4501001&CountryID=Somalia), set up in 1997, now employs 45 teachers, has 1,000 students and a library of over 100,000 books. It is respected as one of the best Universities in the Horn of Africa. This table is produced from data from the Independent Institute's paper, comparing Somalia amongst 42 sub-Saharan countries. Statistic is a rank so higher is better (bold indicates improvement, or top 50% on a new measure):
a. Ranking out of 36 b. Ranking out of 41 c. Ranking out of 40 d. Ranking out of 39 Somalia does have private defense firms, you call them out as an extortion racket because they charge for their services? Last I checked, the government don't work for free. They have a working currency and a (primitive) legal system. The biggest issue with Somalia is inherent mistrust of the outside, their laws only extend to Somali citizens, so their chances of globalising are a flat zero. This is not consistent with libertarianism at all. Having said that, there must be something the Somalians like about not having a state, or they wouldn't have successfully opposed every single one that tried to set itself up on their land in the past twenty years. When you stop trying to compare imperfect anarchism with a perfect state, your arguments might make sense and have coherence. All forms of sociopolitical structure are imperfect, compare relevant shining beacons of the state like Kenya, Ethiopia, Rwanda and DR Congo with Somalia. Compare pre-1991 Somalia with Somalia. I would recommend that people actually take the time to understand the situation there (http://www.independent.org/publications/working_papers/article.asp?id=1861) before jumping for joy when they find an 'anarcho-capitalist' state which happens to be performing in a less-than-stellar manner. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: GideonGono on July 30, 2011, 10:27:21 AM Somalia is a good example of a libertarian utopia. No state; no restrictions and everyone free to live as they choose. Hawker is a good example of an ignorant idiot. No knowledge about Somalia or Libertarianism; free to talk all the garbage he likes Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: GideonGono on July 30, 2011, 10:32:36 AM I don't even know why you guys bother correcting this guy. The irony is earlier today I just wrote a post about how I constantly get straw-manned when I talk about Somalia. It gets really old and really irritating after a while. If you hit every straw man with a Wikipedia article, either they shut up or actually learn what's going on. win/win.Hahaha. Good on you, then. Carry on. :) I think Josell is beyond help. Isn't he guy guy who was blathering on about creationism? Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: josell on July 30, 2011, 09:58:56 PM Somalia is closest to a theocracy than to anarchism.
I dont think anarchism is totally imposible, but I think it is very unprobable. Maybe in the future, when education becomes universal and transportation is open to everyone, that day law will not be be necessary and anarchism could be posible. But you can force a country to be anarchist and reject religion; thats is stupid and utopical. Title: Re: Closest thing to a libertarian utopia Post by: myrkul on July 30, 2011, 10:06:55 PM Somalia is closest to a theocracy than to anarchism. Um... No. Theocracy is a religious organization acting as the state. See: Vatican City. Going to the priest as a judge != Theocracy. |
