Bitcoin Forum

At $40 a lot of people could buy in.

At $100 .... not too many people could still buy in with any relevant *volume* (and this is the key, before you write your response) ...

At $200 .... for any of you who have been to Asia and seen the Rolls Royce's lining the streets ... you know that China is the reason BTC continued to rise past $200.

To China $200 is chump change.

But how is anyone going to consider BTC a worthwhile investment at $500 per coin, except the already very wealthy?

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Its no different than the guy who makes $250,000 a year who still doesn't bother buying Google stock.

He's got money, but in order to make money, you have to buy a lot of something.  Otherwise you buy 2 shares of Google and make a whopping $10 in four months.

He can't buy *enough* to make it worth his while.

So he doesn't buy.

Without buyers and sellers constantly buying and selling, what is going to keep pushing the price up?

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At some point very soon, nobody is going to be able to afford a Bitcoin.   What happens then?

Buying in sub 1.0 quantities will seem very pointless to many "lay" people.  Buying 1/10th of a coin .... negligible return on investment really ...

Maybe BTC will have to transition ...... from a "stock market"-like "buying and selling" scene ...... to more of an "industry" for exchange of goods and services.

So if that happens ...  what is going to push the value up, past $1,000?

Who says you can only buy a full coin?

1 Bitcoin is another way of saying 100,000,000.

The number of coins is immaterial.  

It is like saying who is going to buy gold at $20 million per ton (a very good price BTW).  I can barely afford 0.00001 tons.

As for 1/10th of a coin being a lower return than 1 coin come on man is basic math not taught in school anymore.

If you spend $200 for 1 BTC and the exchange rate doubles you now have $400 worth of BTC.
If in some hypothetical future you spend $200 for 1/10th of a BTC and the exchange rate doubles you now have .... TADA ... $400 worth of BTC.


Still if you are worried and your only interest in hype and massive returns there is this revolutionary "altcoin" which has tracked the exact same return as Bitcoin.  You can buy 1 mBTC for the low price of ~$0.25 ea. UNDER A DOLLAR!!!!! MUCH BETTER THAN BITCOIN. Amazing.  Think of how much you can make if 1 mBTC goes to $200.  INSANE PROFITS FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!  Plus while you wait to make your billions you can spend/trade/exchange your mBTC EVERYWHERE THAT TAKES BITCOIN.  Forget BTC buy mBTC today.

This topic has been visited a fair number of times.

Stock splits change the perceived public value of a stock.

There's a lot of supporters waiting to pressure exchanges to switch to a mBTC format, for this very reason.
With this current rally, that day will be fast approaching.

A price of $0.262/mBTC doesn't look so daunting now, does it?

Why would someone even bother buying 0.2 BTC ?

If a whole Bitcoin only goes up $100 .... why would someone care about making $20 ?

Im new to finance so im asking out of genuine cluelessness. 

Thanks for any educating you can do :)

"free" money is free money dude.

People will now buy in 0.01 increments.  :P

I suppose.  I guess im just a bitcoin snob now with my 175% profit LOL ....

I want to buy 1/21,000,000 of the new global internnet economy. How much do I pay?

$264. nice try

1 mBTC only costs 27 cents.

They are cheap.

Return on Investment is based on a percentage, so if you buy 0.01 BTC and you make 20% on your investment...well you made 20%...

JUST like the guy who bought 1000 BTC...

Percentage wise both accounts are equal.

Cheers,

Too rich for my blood. I deal with satoshis.

OP, you're right on point with your thinking.  I agree, people will not buy fractions of Bitcoins in mass and yes, there is likely a cap on the price of Bitcoins or any crypto.  However, the "gold rush" mentality will still live on and that's when people will look to alt-currencies.  What's the "next big money maker?"  99% of people purchasing crypto are doing so for pure speculation, not for actual use.  It's about "getting rich", not changing the world.  

Now, as more people get more educated about what crypto is and assuming they want to actually use it to transact, they will realize there is no reason to pay a premium for a brand name like "Bitcoin", because it offers no advantages over the next crypto or even an exact copy of Bitcoin.  (It is open source after all)  Crypto will likely reach an equalization point where it won't matter that there are only 21 million Bitcoins because the only thing that matters, is its ability to store value.  That can be accomplished with any crypto.  Bitcoin isn't special, it's just first.  So why deal in fractions of crypto when you can deal in whole numbers of another, equally effective crypto?  Not to mention, Bitcoin doesn't scale so there is obviously going to be a limit to what's realistic.  Notice I said realistic, not delusional.  ::)

What I say is, get rich while people are still ignorant.  Because the time will come when crypto is as common as fiat and equally as inexpensive to own and utilize as a store of value.  Maybe Bitcoin will retain some collectors item appeal for being the first big crypto, but likely not more than that because, there is just no point to stick with one, super expensive crypto when they all do the same thing and some can and will do it better than Bitcoin. 

Right. Because the man power, computing power, security , community and business and application Eco-system don't matter at all. Any crypto can just support major integration into he world economy and asset class. 

Of course, first response has never shown to play much importance in adoption in any economic sector.

I mean lets just look at all the venture capital being poured into Litecoin and every other coin.

I mean they all just do what Bitcoin does, only better. Glad the rest of the world doesn't know that yet.

Agree with immediately above.

Your post (Coinseeker) ignores the fact that entire infrastructures are being built around Bitcion.  Not alt currencies.

If you believe that all that infrastructure is easily reusable with other cryptocurrencies, then your point may be right, but I have a feeling a lot of it is custom to Bitcoin.

As it stands though, its going to be several years in my opinion before other crypto's are entertained.  Bitcoin needs to establish itself first.

Anyways I am still not 100% clear on why the buying spree (and therefore price increases) will continue once a bitcoin gets high enough.  

Its value must somehow be affected by its "use" as a medium of exchange eventually because right now its value is being pushed only by buying and selling.  And that isn't going to last.

I suppose it was a bad example to compare to Google stock because you can't buy partial stocks like you can buy a partial bitcoin. 

Coinseeker is a Ripple fanboy. And his comments are typical of Ripple fanboys.

As far as your OP, btc exchanges need to switch to mBTC at some point. It will probably be later than it should because their are a lot of techie purists that will slow that decision down.

I agree with Coinseeker. The higher the price of Bitcoin, the more people will look for alternatives. I wouldn't have a problem switching to something really better. You can not make a better gold, it is unique, but you can make a better crypto. I am sure these high prices and popularity of Bitcoin are really good incentives for people to improve the crypto tech. The infrastructure will naturally follow.

They (VC's) are operating on ignorance and brand name recognition.  They're looking to make a buck. Simple as that. They don't care about Bitcoin. If Litecoin becomes the popular name, they'll ditch BTC in a hurry and go with the money. Plus, miners are going to mine whatever is profitable.  Mining BTC isn't going to remain profitable for anyone not already rich and owning massive farms of mining equipment.  Yet, the desire to "print money" will never die and this will allow ANY crypto to have plenty of computational power, security, etc.  

You can tell yourself whatever you want, crypto is not exclusive to Bitcoin.  It's just one brand name out of many to come, though I wish you success on convincing the masses to buy 0.0000001 Bitcoins, when they can just buy 1 of something equally as effective.

I'm not knocking Bitcoin, it is showing us the way.  I'm just not blinded into the "one world currency" thinking and we'll just fraction out Bitcoin to infinity when new crypto is a whole lot easier to deal with.    

Alts are all based on the same blockchain.  Integration into existing infrastructure is easy.  And yes, with tech like Ripple and anything else smart enough to bypass the limited payment network of the blockchain, it will be a one stop shop.  But my points are not about Ripple.  It's about individual crypto. 

You can't compare crypto to stock as it relates to the masses utilizing it.  They don't care about that stuff.  They just want something simple and safe.  That does not include calculating fractions.  That might be, gee golly, really nerd cool for programmers but everyday people aren't having it because most people hate math and if it's confusing, we don't use.  Period.  I'm not saying it's going to happen tomorrow, what I'm saying is that an equalization is coming one day where crypto will be common place.  People will understand generally how and why crypto is safe as a store of value and there will be crypto for everything from casinos to grocery stores, to banks, you name.  Crypto will be everywhere.  There will never be ONE crypto that the world uses.  Sorry its a delusion, for those that believe that.  Crypto is brilliant tech, that soon will as common as pennies you find in the street.

Right. The founder of brightcove is ignorant and just looking to make a buck.

The major difference in opinion is that you believe that crypto will just be a speculative market. I believe it will be transacted as a major world currency one day. And brand recognition is VITAL in that scenario.

Good luck with Ripple though.

I don't believe crypto will only be a speculative market.  Maybe you should control your butthurt and actually read what is being written.  It will be much more than speculative and Bitcoin will only be one brand out of thousands.  Yes, a brand needed to be established to turn people on to the tech but soon, that will matter less because their are certainly entities out there with more trust and honesty in their brand, than the "Bitcoin Community".  ::)

I'll assume you agreed with the rest given you didnt address it and are really only concerned with that which makes you personally richer.  Which I'm totally fine with BTW.  Get it while you can. ;)

Please tell us which entities have more respect and trust and bitcoin?

Listen, IMO, you underestimate how long it will take crypto to be realized accepted and understood by the world of human masses. By the time they do, bitcoin will be so far ahead as first adopter, with so much power and money behind, per integration, that other cryptos will be secondary.

Oh, but that won't happen because btc will be too expensive (ie popular)? Ok

I find this whole discussion somewhat ridiculous.

Almost every brand is more trust worthy than the Bitcoin community, given this very forum is really just a gathering place for scammers and hackers.  Is that a serious question?   ::)

I don't know how long it will take for crypto to be accepted by the masses.  Could be a year, 5 years or more.  (More would obviously mean crypto is not going to be adopted and something better has been created)  I think you overestimate the value of the name and ultimately lack vision as to where crypto as a whole is going.  There will never be just one crypto currency.  To even suggest that, is beyond delusional.  You do have the right to have your delusions, so best of luck with that.  Either way, I appreciate Bitcoin for what it has shown us and the future will be better because of its contribution to finding better currencies and ways to transact with one another.

Me must switch to mBTC or Satoshis ASAP. Humans are all about perception.

Agree :)

Please, OP, I don't mean to be mean, but learn2math. Your question is retarded.
 
"Who would bother to buy only 0.2 bitcoin, and make only $20?"

The % return is all that matters in this consideration. If you put $20 into bitcoin, and BTC/USD goes up 10%, you've made $2. If you put $1000 into bitcoin and the exchange rate goes up 10%, you've made $100. Doesn't matter how many mega, whole, mini, milli, or microbitcoins you have except that this number is of course a function of the exchange rate. The only consideration is purely psychological. The actual investment scenario doesn't change.

So you could say "I feel that $2000/bitcoin is psychologically too high for most people, even though they'd be making the same % ROI whether they bought at $13/btc and saw a 1000% rise or bought at $130/BTC and saw a 1000% rise." (Hasn't happened yet but you get the point.)

OTOH, Berkshire Hathaway hasn't done any splits and it is $173,000/share. It likely won't be a problem.

What you're saying is kind of like  the opposite of taking a penny stock and saying a penny is way too cheap for it. You could combine 1000 penny stock shares so a share is $10.000 but does that make any difference to your ROI? It doesn't matter whether you have a "whole" or a "part."

I don't even know where to start on this thread. So I am not going to. Have a nice day.

Google is also having the same problem of nobody buying their stock because it is too expensive.




Google Inc
NASDAQ: GOOG - Nov 6 6:54 PM ET


1,022.75+1.23 (0.12%)

Stocks, Google in this case on November 6, do not *typically* move as much as BTC. 0.12 % - that's like 30 bitcoin-seconds of movement. It's moved more than that while I've been typing.

Would I invest $1,022.75 for a single share for a 0.12% gain when the stock has a minimal upside potential? No.

Would I invest my money for whatever amount of BTC, mBTC, Satoshis, etc - when I could win/lose 20% in a day? Perhaps. Regardless of the denomination - bitcoin has a huge potential upside. As TONS of people have already pointed out, you don't have to buy 1 bitcoin. You can buy whatever amount you want. Percentage gain is percentage gain, regardless of what label you attach (BTC, mBTC, USD, Cents, etc) to it.

Don't let the OP see Berkshire Hathaway or his head might asplode.

Berkshire Hathaway Inc.
NYSE: BRK.A - Nov 6 4:00 PM ET
172,220.00+466.00 (0.27%)

It went up over 466 just today!  That non-possible.

The upside (and downside) for Google is exactly the same at $1000 per share as it is at $1 per share.   At $1 per share the company would have 1000x as many shares and thus a $1000 investment would net you 1000 shares but it wouldn't net you a greater % of the company.

Are you saying you won't buy Google at $1,000 per share but if they did a 100:1 split you would buy the exact same company with the same profits, same revenue, same marketshare, same brand for $10 per share?

Still I think you missed the entire point of Elwar's sarcastic comment in that price doesn't matter.  Obviously people have bid Google up enough to triple it over the last couple years despite it having a triple (and now quadruple) digit price.

people will initially start buying Litcoin, because it is cheap. But they will realise after a while that they just need to buy fractions of a BTC, no problem :)

So Im bullish on litecoin for the moment ;)

(and it is already happening)

Right, but can you buy 1/1000th of 1 share of a Google? I actually don't know, forgive my ignorance. If so, then my point in that regard is a fail.

Regarding my comment on upside/downside - my personal opinion is that at this time the upside in Google is minimal - but again that is just my speculation and the company's current size, competition, etc. Not based on current price.

So the question is, what's more important.  Bitcoin as a speculative commodity?  Or Bitcoin as a store of value and payment medium?

If it's just for speculation, then sure, Bitcoin retains value as a brand and rarity, though even that has a limited shelf life as more crypto gains popularity. (Competition) But as anything more, it doesn't offer any significant value over any other crypto down the road.  It's just crypto.  A means to store and send value to each other.  I guess people have to decide which really matters.  Most people outside of the teeny tiny crypto community don't trade so, it's really irrelevant as it relates to mass adoption.  Because of that, I'd say arguments about stock splits, Google, etc are irrelevant and misplaced.  What matters is what people will actually use, day to day, to conduct transactions.  Buying fractions of anything to conduct day to day transactions is just silly and is bound to fail.  People are comfortable with two decimal places and trying to force them into something else, well...lets just say, good luck with that.   ;D

Personally think bitcoin is more important as a payment medium.

I agree with most of what you said, however, I think by your comment regarding people refusing to use more than two decimal places, you're insinuating it will be an issue to buy a big gulp with bitcoin when it is 5,000 USD per coin. (Big Gulp then should be around 0.000264 BTC) But that is 0.26 or 0.27 mBTC, it's not too hard. Take it a step further to 2.6 uBTC or whatever. I think/hope people will just start using the smaller denominations as the price increases.

Until we hit uber bull wetdream price levels, IMO, this might even encourage adopter. Hell, I took my wife to a nice steak dinner for 0.3 BTC and it felt GOOD. lol. It seems like 0.3 of anything is a "Good deal." Of course I know the reality, and part of my view is based on benign into bitcoin since it was $5.... but the perception may be important nonetheless.

It's certainly not impossible, just not likely IMO.  The Bitcoin community would have to start doing it ASAP, as was stated above.  You have to set the standard, long before you need the standard.  Otherwise, people will just gravitate toward other coins and whatever is easiest, while you fumble over each other trying to find consensus and get it adopted through the current infrastructure.  I think they will gravitate toward other crypto regardless but if done right, Bitcoin could continue to increase its market cap by keeping more people using it in fractions, even with the continued existence of many other crypto currencies.  I just haven't seen enough "unity" on this subject over the past several months to believe it's possible for this community to pull off.

I'll get some pop corn and beer, it's going to be an interesting ride either way.

We are far from the moment when 1 BTC will be too expensive to buy. But too volatile to buy, this can become a problem, for non-traders.

Bitcoin is the gold of the crypto world. Yes there might be need for silver too. But you don't seem to understand that gold is a good store of value not because of any superior quality over other metals but because of it's scarcity. And people need a good store of value.

good to see that it didnt talk more than post #4 for the original poster to be rightly ridiculed for not understanding basic math

Just because something is rare, does not make it valuable.  It's only "gold" because you say so.  Litecoin is the "silver" because people say so.  It's really arbitrary.  Gold is a good store of value for many more reasons than it's scarcity.    That's also why the comparison of Bitcoin to Gold is ridiculous to me.  Gold is beautiful, tangible, can be molded into art, jewelry, used as a conductor, requires nothing else to exist, has been proven over thousands of years and yes it's rare.  Bitcoin is just rare in brand name.  But is abundant as crypto.  It's nothing like gold.  It's not beautiful, tangible, it can't be molded into anything or used in a circuit board, etc, etc.  It's been proven over a mere couple of years and it certainly can not exist on its own.  It requires the internet, which requires electricity, which requires fuel, which requires infrastructure, which requires taxes, which requires government.  

Point is, it's nothing like gold and it will never be as good as gold at storing value for many reasons but the most obvious being, there will always be some form of counter party risk related to Bitcoin.  Bitcoin and all of crypto is dependent on something else to exist, thus it's existence can be terminated by someone or something else at anytime.  If I own actual gold, it's all mine.  See the difference? One is real, the other is merely an illusion of the mind.  So by that stance, crypto and the value it stores, is only as safe as the government, taxes, infrastructure, fuel, electricity and internet that props it up.  For any signficant storage of value, I think I'll stick with real gold but hey, that's me.

That, but it is also sad to see how many people are seriously replying to OP :) How can you be into cryptocurrencies and not even know how to add and subtract? Amazing.

Man, all your posts are weak sauce. You offer opinion only, no facts. No real substantial arguments for anything you write.

When the Spanish invaded Peru, they kidnapped one of the Inca leaders and asked for all their gold. The Incas were relieved and gave them all of it, because they didn't think Gold was anything special. This argument for why gold is so special is bullcrap. Its not the most precious metal. Its not the most utilized metal. Its not the most beautiful metal. Its simple given value by public opinion. And hype.

Bitcoin, unlike gold can be used for business to customer transactions, business to business tranactions, frictionless exchange, borderless exchange, mobile purchasing. Like gold it can me a store of wealth asset, but unlike Gold it only have a finite amount.

You absolutely fail to realize that Gold is valuable because of the massive amount of power, money and interest in keeping it so.

And that is exactly the point I make with BTC. One integrated into society, it will have a massive amount of power, money and interest from people and institutions that will want to make sure it maintains its value.

All this pie in the sky utopian hopes you have for a multi-crypto currency world, rubbish. Maybe in 2050 there will be several cryptos, serving different purposes. But in the near future, BTC will have a tremendous, probably insurmountable lead as the worlds leading crypto currency. Nothing out there offers a game changer in that regard.

You made your bet with Ripple. Lets talk again in 5 years.

+1

Bitcoin advantage is it is used already as a payment medium, many merchants use Bitcoin as a pay option. The speculation and trading is secondary as some people see profit can be made here.

You're right here.

Something better is coming. It's looming on the horizon.