Bitcoin Forum

Galileo Galilei once said, “All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.” Discovering truth about cryptocurrencies (let’s just call them cryptos) and showing that they are neither money nor assets, is the goal of this article. The first step toward achieving this goal is to explain how tangible or intangible things are represented and quantified with a combination of alphanumeric characters on a paper or digital medium. After that, we will know that money or assets are entities separated from characters that represent and quantify them. Given this knowledge it will become clear why cryptos never were, nor ever will be money or assets, but worthless alphanumeric characters whose digital manifestation serves only to trick the public into the illusion that they represent and quantify some actual things. ....The rest you can read here:  https://cryptofraud.wordpress.com/
 (https://cryptofraud.wordpress.com/)

bank balance is less 'value'

but if you really look deep.
art is just paint on canvas. cars ar just metal and glass. houses are just bricks and mortar
the brand pepsi is just a 5 letter word. your wife/husband is just like 3.8billion people of the same gender. water is the same as ice

but then when you stand back and look at what utility/purpose/function they have. you start to see the intrinsic value even if you cannot touch it tangeably

Anyone else getting deja vu (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3166072.0)?  Seriously, is that Galileo quote the only one you've got?  How about:

"If I were again beginning my studies, I would follow the advice of Plato and start with mathematics.
Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."

I'm not really with him on the whole "God" part, but mathematics is indeed the language of the universe and cryptography is mathematics.  It's precisely because of sense, reason and intellect that many of us are here.  Here because our reasoning tells us it's fiat which is pretty well renowned for tricking the public of its supposed legitimacy.  But we're not buying that myth anymore.  You're the one insisting the Sun still revolves around the Earth here.

I think Galileo would side with us on this one.  We're the ones questioning the established "truths".   ;)

I can take this conversation to the next level. :D

What if we're living in a computer simulation!?
Galileo Galilei once said, “All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.”

The rest you can read here: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/22/what-if-were-living-in-a-computer-simulation-the-matrix-elon-musk

Why would people trust in alphanumeric characters? We trust people, not things. Things are valuated, not trusted. They are valued by their ability to provide benefit for the owner. How can you benefit from the alphanumeric characters like 0.0001 BTC or 1.5 LTC? They are neither passwords nor some secret code or text. They are not representative of legal claims like fiat currencies. They are not tangible. So how can you benefit from such items?

I'm sorry but you can't really trust people. There are evidences of corruption everywhere, and banks are not an exception to that.
Actually banks were created because we can't really trust people, and we start using banks in order to have a supposedly trusted entity that would make sure the transactions we were making were reliable.

Bitcoin does that for you, without the need to have a middle man. You no longer need banks to ensure that the transaction you are receiving is legit. The BTC blockchain will do that for you. You can trust math, because it set by strict rules that can be verified by anyone. The same way you can trust math, you can trust bitcoin. Trust is actually one of the big advantages of using bitcoin.

Another big advantage it that bitcoin, unlike fiat, is decentralized and not tied to any governments. Can you really trust governments? Tell that to Venezuelan citizens, or Zimbabwe citizens, or any other citizens that saw their economies depreciate because of corruption and bad decisions of their leaders. That can't happen with bitcoin, so again you can actually trust BTC more than you can trust fiat.

What gives value to fiat? The people of course. What gives value to bitcoin? Also the people.
This is the only thing they have in common.

Did you read the article?

I couldn’t agree with you on this. Cryptocurrrency is not worthless and it will be proved soon. Though the time is not being good for bitcoin but it will soon recover and hopefully will reach to the top and also feeling like you have posted this to just for spread a FUD and negativity among mass.

Cryptocurrencies are worthless since alphanumeric characters are worthless. Alphanumeric characters are abstractions used to indicate, signify or identify actual valuable things, but they are not valuable on their own.  Cryptocurrencies are worthless abstractions dressed up and sold as money or assets. It is only a matter of time until they collapse.

If so, banknotes are also of no value. A lot of new things have just appeared when they are considered worthless, block chains are the same, and of course it is possible, but as many industries use block chain technology, encrypted money will become more and more valuable.

good mention of Galilei here actually! the interesting thing is he was saying earth is round (just as we say bitcoin as a cryptocurrency has a lot more value than what FUDsters say) and they kept defying him and saying Galilei is wrong and earth is flat just because they didn't understand facts.

the principle is the same, the grounds are different. no matter how many facts you give some naysayers they still call bitcoin "alphanumeric characters without value"!

Banknotes are legal claims on the banks and on the property of borrowers, and legally, they are just like the utility bills for e.g.

Well, all you do is repeat the mantra: "bitcoin has value", "bitcoin has value", "bitcoin has value"... but you never provide a single shred of evidence why this is so, and explain on what basis can a bunch of characters have value.

Galilei provided evidence and reason and logic and ... over and over and they never believed him and stuck to their broken belief. sometimes there is no point arguing! and besides why should i provide you with "evidence"? it's already out there, you just have to bother to go spend some time and educate yourself. i doubt you would but if i am wrong then google Andreas Antonopoulos and read/watch his stuff.

Same as data, it's just a series of 0s and 1s but when you put it together it becomes very useful. This is the new digital world and we need digital money, it is lucky that bitcoin was invented as it could have been something worse and centralised.

Your logic is like saying that because Döttling Narcissus is the most expensive and the most secure safe in the world, a grain of sand that is put in it is worth $7,000. Why would you want to secure a grain of sand? It is worthless. Or, more importantly why would you want to pay $7,000 for it? Does a grain of sand have value because people desire access to Döttling Narcissus? Your rhetorical attempts give value to a worthless bunch of characters it is really fascinating.

I would not say all of them but a good 95% are just that. They take some project and fork it, then rebrand it, and sell it to the people. Some people win some lose, fun is guaranteed.

90% of alts will perish

only a handful of proven long term projects with real use cases will flourish

btc will be the leader for quite some time as yet though

You appear to be incapable of reading comprehension.

The grain of sand does not give one access to the safe.

Well, the fact is that characters in the form of bitcoin (1,25 BTC for e.g.), also does not give one access to the virtual wallet.  In both cases you need "secret numbers". So, I will ask again: does a grain of sand have value because people desire access to Döttling Narcissus?

So, it is clear now that you neither have an understanding of how bitcoin actually works NOR are you capable of reading comprehension.

I suggest you go get educated, then come back when you actually have any idea what you are talking about.

This is a typical response for someone who has no argument. There is nothing complicated about bitcoin, blockchain or bitcoin market. You have worthless digital bits stored on network of computers and people who throw away their valuable property or assets in exchange for these bits. And all that because people are uneducated about the fact that digital bits are just symbols used to represent and quantify actual property or assets, but are not property or assets themselves.

Money is nothing more than a transfer of wealth. With the advent of fiat this wealth was now held up on trust. Trust that a third party will pay the debt when requested. Bitcoin specifically is the first case of digital, unhackable scarcity so why is it so hard to believe it has a value if others are placing value on it>

You're completely missing the point.  Not only are we not merely talking about an ordinary safe, we're talking about safes that can teleport their contents to any other safe anywhere on the planet without anyone being able to stop it.  If the Döttling Narcissus could do that, you bet your ass people would pay good money for one.  

But the overall point is, it's not the contents contained in the safe that give the safe its value.

Stop replying to this fxsurfer troll fool

he started this thread about the same shit and got owned because his argument is bogus

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3166072.0



He does not have the mind to comprehend that value is not obtained in 1 jump instantly from something else. It is a lot more complex than that.

He seems to think anything that is not tangible can not store value.

Of course that is foolish.

I give up.  If you can't read, then you can't be helped by anything typed on this forum.

There are two possibilities here...

1. You are lacking basic reading comprehension skills, and are incapable of logical thought.

2.  You are simply a troll that will refuse to take notice of any information that contradicts the narrative you are trying to create.

In either case, the best response is to stop replying to your posts with anything other than:

Please Don't Feed The Trolls.

The only troll here is you with your religious language. First you define blockchain as a highly secure, global, permissionless, immutable, redundant data storage. So, you have a bunch of anonymous computers that store numbers(bitcoins) and addresses. Than you conclude that this is an intrinsically valuable thing. Ok, computers are intrinsically valuable. But then your religious language kicks in: "Bitcoins are a measurement of one's ability to access that storage system." So, numbers stored by computers measure the ability to access computers." This is like saying: "things stored in the safe measure the ability to access the safe". IOWs, things inside the safe are valuable because we can access the safe. So the logic of your post boils down to this: if dirt is put into the safe, dirt becomes valuable because we can access the safe. If this is not trolling, then what is trolling?

Are they still worthless when you exchange them into fiat, plane tickets, or ski passes?    I think not.   Fine powder today in St. Moritz.

Fiat currencies are just numbers too, they have value because we give value to them, that's it. If tomorrow La Garde wake up and say "Ok people from now we buy/sell services/things with bananas", you will see that fiat currencies will become just worthless numbers and bananas will have value. It's just a stupid example to say, our crypto have value because there are people out there accepting them as a payment method.
I find crypto way more valuable then fiat because, 1)we own them (we have to trust banks with fiat, we don't really own that) 2)we know every supplies, every transactions (good luck with that with fiat).
It's just the next big leap for humanity but unfortunally most people just see the speculative aspect of it.

Numbers are also a coordinate system. Why cryptocurrencies can't be part of a coordinate system. We make up the rules ourselves and then follow them. Do you really think dollars are worth more than the paper they're printed on? I am sure that bitcoin has more prospects than the dollar.

I think that you are wrong. We first buy some of these, as you put it, alphanumeric characters and with their help we can translate our invested money into these alphanumeric characters, anywhere in the world without intermediaries, at any time of the day, in any place convenient for us and very quickly. Also, we can pay for any goods or services for the amount invested by us, while bearing the cost of implementing such transactions in the amount of commission expenses. That is, the crypto currency, that is, a set of alphanumeric characters only serves as a specific shell for performing various financial transactions in the amount invested in this shell of our real money. However, the size of our invested funds, as long as we have not spent them, can increase or decrease depending on the ratio of demand and the price of this alphanumeric shell and this is already an unshakable law of the market.
The same is given to us and banknotes, but they provide us with much less comfort and convenience. Banknotes, that is colorfully painted from fakes paper shell, we need to be attributed to someone to exchange it for some kind of goods or services. Non-cash money is closer to the level of convenience to the crypto currency, but it can not be compared with the crypto currency.

Yes I've read it, and I already know that argument but I still don't believe in it. Also, don't forget that money is an abstraction as well, and now it's not backed up by anything, except by banks and governments word. At least bitcoin is backed by math, and that's the reason why I think it has more value than fiat. Also, I say it one more time, people decide what has value and what it does not.

Even gold, that you can say it has value because it's used for many things. But if you think about it, only a very small % of gold is actually used in industry, so gold is not valuable for it's applications. It's because people give it value based on their perception. I know bitcoin is knew, and maybe that's why people get a hard time understand why it's becoming so valuable, but once people understand that it's applications, there will no doubts on how valuable bitcoin is.

Finally, what you are saying has no sense if you think about software. Once it's compiled it's nothing more than "language understood by machines". They have value because of the utility they provide. That will be the same with bitcoin...

The whole article talks about the distinction between "alphanumerical characters" (abstractions) and things(stock, bonds, gold certificates, fiat money, patents) that are represented and quantified with this abstractions. The article also explains how fiat money is backed by banks’ assets and by land, cars, homes and other property of borrowers. All you did in your post was show a complete ignorance of the arguments the article is making and just repeated flawed phrases "fiat money is an abstraction" and "it's not backed up by anything", which are phrases repeated like a mantra in crypto community. So, in your post there is nothing of substance worth rebutting.

Look you seem to just blindly accept what is written on that article, but I will try again.




First, debt doesn't always work that well, and that's why we keep having market crashes, like the one we had in 2008. Banks sell debt, people end up not being able to pay their debt, banks get their houses, but then the house is not worth that much apparently, and suddenly the "perfect scheme" illustrated in that article doesn't work anymore. Banks have houses that are worthless, we end up having a lot of dollars in circulation, inflation kicks in, and now everyone is poor because their precious dollars aren't worth that much anymore.

Developed countries end up recovering from those mistakes that lead to crashes, but look at Zimbabwe, where their currency was so wrongly printed that their entire fiat system crashed beyond recovery. If things were so perfectly balanced, and fiat was backing land and properties, etc, please do explain what happened there...

Things are not always perfect and there is room for the hole system to crash, as history has proven us many times, and it will continue doing so. This happens because the system doesn't follow simple math rules. If it doesn't follow simple math rules, and it can fail, then it's based on faith.

If I buy a rare baseball card, or any collectible item, what am I buying? It's not the card itself, it's just a piece of plastic that is not made by very special materials. It has symbolic value for fans, etc. That's what I'm buying when I pay for a collectible item. This has nothing to do with bitcoin, what I'm trying to describe here, is that we are the ones to perceive and give value to things. That can happen to anything, including cryptocurrencies.

When people buy bitcoin, they are buying the security and convenience that it's network provides to carry out transactions in a decentralized way. People see value in gold because it is scarce. It's not because of it's industry utility. Just a very small portion of gold is used in industry, because there are simply better and cheaper materials available out there. So again, gold has the value because we agree it has value.

We usually value scarcity, we value security, we value convenience, and Bitcoin has all those things.

If I gave you 1 BTC, you could:
- give it away to someone else;
- simply forget about it because you don't believe in it, and it would be same as stepping on a rock, so you would simply leave it behind;
- sell it to someone else at the current price;

In all those scenarios you would probably be losing, simply because you don't understand the value of a Bitcoin.

Whatever it maybe but it has a value right,once you will understand the technology behind the cryotocurrency then you may know why it got popular,it is almost safe form of currency in the transaction.And then do you think why money has a value it was just a piece of paper with some colours poured on it,think about it.

You can't grasp how to benefit from digital numbers, but you can cope with benefitting from a piece of paper with numbers and a logo of a dead guy printed on?

An intangible asset is an asset that is not physical in nature. Corporate intellectual property, including items such as

patents, trademarks, copyrights and business methodologies, are intangible assets, as are goodwill and brand recognition.

Looking at the above definition it would be clear to everyone that a asset do not have to be physical and numerical value

can by definition be valuable. The problem is, some users with a agenda, will refuse to see that and no amount of debate will

change that. They are here for one reason and that is to destroy Bitcoin... no debate will change the agenda.  >:(

what i think your trying to say is that a property deed is just words on paper. and that you will never own your house because one day i can enter your house and it automatically makes it mine just by standing inside it/with it. because paper is just symbols

or will you rebutt by saying that no one can take ownership of your property that easily, because i do not have access to your house keys and you do have proof of ownership that only you can claim because the proof is registered and notorised which can only change ownership with your authorisation

     Pretty interesting thought you have on that article there pal, and does makes sense. But the thing is, crypto currencies as what they are "a combination of alphanumeric numbers" is the best thing about them. I mean, if you think about it, the crypto currencies you see are basically nothing right? Now, cryptos having nothing that is on that nothing is empty and without a purpose. Which makes it a good thing to turn into something that we want. That is what makes it beautiful. These alphanumeric characters can become both assets and and money altogether making our lives easier when the issues get fixed(which is bound to happen in the future) and used right. It may have a lot of cons but it also has pros like any other assets out there or fiat. You are seeing this quality of cryptos on the wrong side my friend try to look far beyond what you see so you can understand the beauty of this innovation. Good day pal.

Everything you said is wrong on all levels. If tangibility and representation is the basis of trust, then I don't trust your thought process at all. I mean no offense, but here's how you posit your argument: an intangible alphanumeric character has no value at all. Therefore, such intangible values such as intelligence, emotional, and though processes have little or no value.

How ironic that the thing you consider as worthless is worth of thousands of dollars. Well, this Intangible alphanumeric character has more value than most of the tangible things you own!

Let me tell you why Cryptocurrency is something worth trusted now and in the future. Look around you. What do you see? lot's of computers and technology, right? The world is changing fast and we are gearing to a highly advanced digital era. Cryptos will just become a form of currency alongside with Fiat money, and all people, whether you like it or not, will adapt to the changes in our society.