Bitcoin Forum

Hi everyone

I've been quiet for some time again, eMunie takes up every waking hour as of late, but I'm very happy to report that now all the major components of the client are complete and "set in stone", I'll be releasing various documentations over the next week that will describe in a lot more detail how this elusive beast works on the inside.

There have been many many questions regarding eMunie on here going back as far as June when I first announced the project, some of which I answered at the time, lots of those explanations have since become obsolete with the various iterations of the client and its changing direction since then.

A primer for those that do not know what eMunie is:

eMunie is a next generation crypto-currency, similar in many ways to popular first generation crypto-currencies such as BitCoin (BTC), LiteCoin (LTC) and others. eMunie adopts the root principles and objectives of these first generation crypto-currencies and expands upon them both in terms of security and useability scope.

Many first generation crypto-currencies are simply copies of BitCoin with minor changes. Typically this means that the open source BitCoin program code as been used as a starting point, with modifications made to it depending on what that particular crypto-currency's goals require.

This is not in any way a bad thing, but it does mean that currencies which adopt this approach, are limited by the same factors as BitCoin, and also inherit some or all of its short-comings.

eMunie does not use any of the BitCoin program code, and functions in a completely different manner, sharing only the primary ideologies and end goals.

eMunie provides a more secure & stable currency by a number of means. All transaction information that is able to identify you is encrypted and secure, your privacy is guaranteed. The only parties able to see any identifying information is the receiver and the sender. All other parties in the system are unable to view this information and will never know that a transaction between A -> B happened.

To ensure that all transactions are honest and that the system balances, a different scheme of verification is used to current implementations to verify that the spender of any currency units is authorized to do so, while at the same time keeping any identifying information regarding the spender (and receiver) a secret.

Even dis-regarding the many other innovative features, this alone allows eMunie to stand above the current state of the art and provide a solution that no other crypto-currency has been able to achieve:

   A true anonymous, secure, decentralized, distributed digital currency.

eMunie is also packed with innovative, ground breaking features such as:

• Speed - Transactions are processed almost instantly (sub-20 seconds) and are safe to trust.
• Size - Small data set, clients download only what they need, and most do not need the whole transaction tree.
• Interest - eMunie uses a TRUE economic supply & demand based currency system where new supply is distributed to current stake holders
• P2P exchange - The first true P2P exchange allowing not only the exchange of eMu, but ANY currency or commodity registered within the system
• ENS - A naming system for wallet addresses which allows more human readable terms to be assigned to an address.
• Postman - Secure e-mail system including attachments.
• ERC - Secure chat rooms/channels similar to IRC days of old (private rooms supported).
• EIM - Secure instant messaging between 2 or more parties.
• Ratings - Self explanatory, you can rate the sender of transactions (these ratings are used for various things in the community)
• Profiles - Public & private profiles where you may enter some details about yourself (or your business)
• much much more....

All of the above features will be explained in more detail within the various documentation that I will be making available over the course of the next week or so.

So, without further ado, please feel free to ask any questions you may have regarding eMunie and I will be happy to answer them :)

Note:  For reasons unknown to me, trolls seem to like eMunie (perhaps it's the mention of goats in previous threads?  :D) and I will not tolerate any trollish behavior in this thread and will not respond to any bait.  The purpose of this Q&A thread is to answer legitimate questions regarding eMunie and anything else related, not for the stroking of a troll-ish ego.

Quite some of these features have been implemented in other coins in similiar ways?

Some of them have been implemented in other places, I'm not 100% sure if the implementations are the same or not as I simply don't have the time to research EVERY new release and it's technical information in great detail.

That said, I'm fairly confident that eMunie is the first to have them all, which makes it not only a secure and distributed payments system, but also a secure and distributed general communications tool as well.

How do you ensure global transaction ordering and double spend prevention? Centralization (PayPal style), PoW, PoS, consensus (Ripple style) or something different?

Why is chat, mail and IMing part of your financial trading software, does it not increase attack surface? How does the benefit outweigh this cost?

So is a github or similiar repo online yet where we can download the code build the thing and try it?

-MarkM-

You had me at "privacy guaranteed".  ;D

What sort of exchange mechanism is planned to convert eMunie to fiat? Will the platform also accept PPC?

Eagerly anticipating the eMunie release...

How much HDD space would you normally need if you run -po (post office)?

Could you fit (ram-wise) and run emunie on a RPi or BBB?

edit, I've been running the client for a few days now on an i3 and no issues so far. (hatcher and po)

As he said, it's possible to represent any asset, likely similar to Ripple. This means that you need gateways that hold the assets and issue balances on eMunie that can be traded on the platform and redeemed later from the gateway. It doesn't matter if these are carrots, PPC, USD or gold bars.

I'm pretty sure that most of these features have been implemented in some coins.

Can't confirm HDD space but ram / hdw spec is REAL damn low. I am running an ERC server on the $5 a month DigitalOcean droplet with desktop ubuntu. I have to cap the ram @ 256MB but it does run. I as of yet have not tested the new client on my pi, but I am willing to bet it too will work with a gui. Headless should run on damn neither anything.

Just FYI, I'm composing a bunch of fairly comprehensive replies offline at the moment and will post them as and when I am done.  Taking some time to put them together :)

That's quite an all encompassing question and needs almost a whitepaper in itself to answer :) The paper is currently being written and I hope to have that finished next week. However this being a forum post and not really the place to go into huge detail, I'll point out the major aspects that provide information relevant to your question and save a little on the detail.

Until then if you have any more specific queries related to the following, please do send me a PM here or over on the eMunie forums and I'll converse with you on them until a time when I have the paper published then I can link you to that.

Ledger & Ordering

The transaction ledger at the heart of eMunie is not a single chain like with BitCoin and other crypto-currencies of the moment. eMunie adopts more of a tree style ledger where many branches of transactions can exist and co-reference transactions living on other branches.

Ultimately the system does attempt use the most trusted branch for new transactions, that trust is determined from the age of the inputs that make the transactions, how many transaction iterations they have been through, and also the trust of the Hatcher that verified them.

There are times when the most trusted branch can not be used, specifically when that branch has recently had a new transaction appended to it, that branch then has to fulfil a certain maturity time (which assists in the double spend that I will explain shortly).

When the most trusted branch in the system is undergoing this maturity time, the next most trusted branch is used (and so on), so at any one time, there might be a number of high trust branches in the system.

Taking the above into consideration, global transaction ordering is almost "automatic" via the trust mechanisms in place and is also driven by the verification methods used to ensure that transactions are valid and not double-spent. Which leads me neatly onto how double spends are prevented, detected and cured.

Transaction Verification & Double Spend Prevention

There are a number of policies in place that deal with preventing potential double spend attacks in the eMunie network, the main line of defence being the Hatchers themselves. Hatchers serve to verify that transactions placed with them are indeed fund-able and do not violate the balance of the system via double-spends or other fraudulent activities.

When a transaction is itself created and requires verification, the dependency transactions that it requires are included in the verification instruction. This is to ensure that a Hatcher that may be behind with it's copy of the ledger doesn't agree to clear a transaction that it may not have all the dependency information for and that only Hatchers that have all the required dependencies to verify that transaction correctly respond to the call for a Hatcher from the requesting client.

Once a number of Hatchers have responded, the client performs a crude check to ensure that these Hatchers are indeed in sync, selects one randomly from the list of respondents, and transmits the transaction to that Hatcher for verification. The client also broadcasts to other nodes it is connected to about the transaction verification event, and also to any Seeders that is connected to (there will always be at least 1 Seeder connected).

Nodes identified as a Hatcher receive a constant stream of these transaction verification event notifications from other Hatchers and Seeders as a priority over other traffic in the network to ensure that all Hatcher nodes are as up to date as possible at all times.

Average transit times for notifications about a transaction verification happening somewhere in the network is between 4-5 seconds, longer transit times can of course happen, but that is not really of a concern due to the following.

Hatchers "hold" transactions they have been selected to process until it itself receives that transaction verification notification from a Seeder and another Hatcher, this ensures that the notification is moving around the network as it should, and provides some assurance that other verifying nodes in the system now know about it and have not called "foul play" on that transaction.

Unlike other crypto-currencies that are open-loop, with no inter-communication possible between "miners", eMunie's verification model is very much closed-loop.

Because Hatchers are identifiable from other node types in the network, it is very easy for them to communicate with each other specifically, passing information between themselves regarding transactions that they are processing. With this closed-loop communication between Hatchers being possible, and because transactions are verified by one hatcher only and not all nodes in the system, it is possible for one Hatcher to respond to another informing it that the transaction it is about to process is using an input that it also has a transaction attempting to use.

The two Hatchers can then abort verifying that transaction and broadcast to other Hatchers that the transactions they were working on were in-fact a double spend attempt, provide details about the attempted double spend and generate a failure response to the requesting client that the transaction has failed.

The selected Hatcher performs verification of the transaction by validating that the inputs presented are in-fact spendable by the party trying to spend them, and checking against the various notifications being received about transaction verification events happening in other places in the network that these inputs have not already been spent.

If all is well, the transaction is then broadcast to the network with the verifying Hatcher's signature, and all nodes perform a more lightweight verification against the ledger data that they have and include it (assuming it passes these checks).

In the previous section I mentioned about transaction maturity and this comes into play at this point. Prior to a transaction being broadcast to the network, a maturity time is calculated for that transaction. Some transaction may have zero maturity time, others may have longer maturity times and depends on a set of circumstances. All nodes in the network are able to calculate this same maturity time, and it not persisted with the transaction.

The major determining factors for this maturity time are the age of the transaction inputs used, the trust of the transactions they are within, the trust of the Hatchers that verified them and if any issues prior with these inputs have been discovered (double spend attempt).

These transactions can not be spent until the maturity time has expired, and as a result, no further transactions can be chained to it, or onto the branch where it resides. This allows other Hatchers in the system of the same or higher trust rating to the Hatcher that verified the transaction to perform a "2nd pass" verification on transactions with these maturity times set to ensure that the transactions are indeed good.

If any Hatcher finds that the transaction is indeed a candidate for "foul play", then a system broadcast can be dispatched and all nodes in the system can then remove that transaction from its ledger.

Additionally, should any regular nodes discover that a transaction in its ledger is attempting fraud, that node is able to report that event to a Hatcher that will either resolve the fraudulent activity itself, or can relay that discovery to a Hatcher with sufficient trust.

There are other factors in play to ensure Double Spend prevention, but they are more minor than the policies described in the above section and will be covered in the white paper.

Chat, IM & e-Mail

These services run independently from the transaction service at the core, so attacking them will not yield any exploitable holes.

The system is designed to be very modular, with services being able to interact with others and make use of whatever features they have visible for use outside of their own domain.

For example, it is possible from the chat service to request a transaction be made to a particular user of a chat room that you may be conversing with, but that request has to go through the exact same channels as sending a transaction from the main client GUI, or from the available command API set for headless clients and remote stations, and is restricted by the same set of rules.

Should an attacker be successful in disrupting the e-Mail service, the transaction service and the entire network as a whole would continue as if nothing had happened. Only the users of e-Mail at the time would see any problems.

Not at the present time, eMunie will be closed source for a period of time after launch.  I appreciate that this can and will cause various up-throwing of arms and strong criticism, and it was not an easy decision to make.

There are 2 justified reasons behind this decision, both of which entangle with the other, and these are the following:

Clones

If eMunie were to be made open-source from the launch date, then I'm sure that almost immediately, clones would surface and be vying for market share against the original.  Some people have baulked at this claim, stating that eMunie would attract the majority of the market as it would be the first and the original.  

I concur that this does carry at least some weight as a counter claim, but that does not resolve the other issues that come into play when you have an original development competing with clones of itself out of the gate, and this compounds even further when you are competing for an uneducated demographic where multiple product are available, with new features, all claiming they are the best.

Ultimately I feel that by releasing the source-code at launch, I would be severely jeopardizing the potential success of my eMunie as a solution, by allowing there to be other variants of eMunie from day one.

BitCoin had an advantage when it was released as open-source right from the get go.  There was no market, no competitors, no "community" and no greedy individuals looking to make a quick buck via copy paste.  It had the time to mature, unhindered, and by the time clones started to appear, BitCoin had cemented itself securely as THE crypto-currency.  eMunie won't have that luxury, nor will any crypto-currency ever again.

Roadmap

I have an extensive road map planned for eMunie moving forward, such that the launch client will most certainly not be the complete feature set or system.  V1.0 will be the starting point, with many additional features, services and infrastructure planned in the time that follows.

Should I release eMunie open-source, due to the inevitable clones, instead of concentrating on this road map, and completing my vision, I'll be endlessly trying to stay ahead of my own created competition for market share, when what I really want to be doing is improving and expanding the system and it's adoption.

I have invested a lot of myself into this project, it is self funded and I do this 24/7 so I am very unwilling to jeopardize all that effort and my own goals before I am at a point where I am confident that eMunie is the known, and the clones are the want-to-be's.

Looking to the future I would like to be in a position to be able to release eMunie as open-source sometime in the 2nd half of next year once there has been some time for it to put a stake in the ground and mature somewhat.

I don't understand how Hatchers are able to verify encrypted transactions. Are blind signatures used or anything else?

Wow! That looks just soo amazing when reading all the features :)
Now I do have a question, will it also be possibel to run the full client on a modern smartphone?
 I just amagin how cool it would be going into the store and then when at the cashier, just pull out the phone,scan a qr-code and then pay instantly!
Just that feature alone could lead to mass adoption, no need for a credit card any more :)

{words,} {a reply }, {meaningful conversation} {so reply not deleted by STASI mod.}

{a question.}

Interesting... is there more than one person working on this project? 

How does one get involved?

http://forum.emunie.com/

Sign up. :)

Then what?

When eMunie launches how many coins will be in existence? How many of these coins will you own yourself? And what is the estimated amount of coins in existence one year after launch? (just very roughly, or provide bounds).

Pretty much exact :)

So you would find a gateway or "dealer" that accepts carrots....you then receive an amount of "virtual carrots" in your wallet, separate to your eMu balance.  The only real currency in eMunie is eMu, the other accounts which hold carrots, cheese, $ or whatever are just holding accounts so you can convert from and to eMu without having to physically cash them out.

When you have finished trading from carrots->eMu->goats and back again, and have made some extra carrots, you then cash out those virtual carrots via a dealer that accepts them and get real carrots.

HDD space should be very minimal also for regular nodes thanks to the DFS (distributed file system), self pruning and compact block tree.   Hatchers and Seeders will need the whole tree short term, but we plan to roll out the DFS version for Hatchers and Seeders later on to cut down on HDD requirements for them also. 

DFS based block tree's on these nodes is more complicated than regular nodes due to some required additions to communications protocol.  This won't really be required until some network growth has occurred so for now we decided to go with a regular full block tree implementation.  The tree will still be pruned and compact and wont take up much space as a BitCoin equivalent over time would.

As an example for regular clients, assuming that the total pruned and compact tree of all current unspents and their current required dependencies is 1GB, each regular client on average will require ~1024th of the total size which is about 1MB.   1GB of block tree with an average dependency requirement of 3 previous transactions is ~500k current unspent transactions, with each regular client in the network requiring around 500 minimum (depending on total network size) of these unspent records to satisfy the DFS requirements.

Nice, when eMunie will be launched?

Could OP answer this?

The system is designed to be very lightweight and should easily be able to run on a modern smartphone, one of our Beta testers is currently playing around with running the full client on a 256MB Pi.

Our roadmap for mobile devices also includes legacy J2ME devices, I am well versed with the capabilities of these older J2ME devices as my previously owned company worked very closely with Nokia, Sony, Motorola and other OEM creating various JVM & JSR implementations and software for these devices.

The 3rd world market is full of these legacy devices and eMunie should be able to run on a large percentage of them as a raw client (no Hatching functionality) which opens up huge possibilities for global adoption past us mere crypto nerds :)

Presently its mainly myself and another developer, I use 3rd party freelancers as and when I need to, but the majority of the design and development of the system is done by myself.

I do this full time and have done for the past year, admittedly I'm a bit of a workaholic when I am passionate about something I am involved with (much to the real bosses frustration at times) so I'm regularly sitting here for 18+ per day.  Probably not good for me, but I'd much rather do this than lay on the couch watching reality TV :)

As we roll out and grow, I will certainly be bringing more developers on board as well as other individuals with notable skill set for promotion, general admin etc.

Good question and I'll finally be able to clear up all this "insta-mine" talk :)

Due to eMunie's unique supply & demand model, an initial system balance (or float) is required to ensure fairness of the system initially from speculators and individuals whose only goal is generate large profits.

Additional to the above, eMunie will feature the worlds first true Peer 2 Peer distributed exchange & marketplace. This exchange & marketplace also requires an initial system balance be present to ensure that the stability of an eMu's value can be ensured, even when large buy or sell activity is present at any particular time, whilst still allowing individual unit value to appreciate steadily and predictably over time.

The supply model and exchange are closely integrated as both systems use information from the other to determine what action they should be doing at any one time. 

An example:

Assume there are only 100 eMu in existence, and I own them all.  You wish to obtain some eMu so you place a buy order on the exchange for 100 eMu at whatever the current rate is (doesn't matter for this example).  I am not selling my eMu, so there is no eMu available for you to buy, the exchange system recognizes this, so creates a demand signal and passes that to the supply system.  Save for the technical details, the supply system will create that 100 eMu over time and distribute it to stake holders, which is me in this example, and Hatchers.

In this example, there are no transactions happening so the Hatcher's would not receive any of the new 100 eMu supply as earnings bonus, so all 100 eMu would end up with me.  I have just made 100% profit, or more accurately, 100% interest, and supply overall is at 100% inflation.

If I do not sell those eMu on the exchange, eventually I will receive another 100 eMu again and again providing that your 100 eMu buy order is still there.

---

By having an initial quantity of eMu at launch, it dampens this effect for the short term, and over time, the natural spread of eMu around the system would ensure that all is fair and balanced.

It would be possible to create this initial system balance and allocate it entirely to an account in eMunie's control and we then sell those eMu on the exchange, perform giveaways and whatnot; however by doing so this would levy control of a large portion of the total eMu supply to a single entity for an unknown period of time.

One of eMunie's main goals is that it should be a decentralized currency, thus adopting the above approach would call that goal into question as eMunie/I would be able to abuse and drive the market price to where ever we wished it to be.

As the system needs this initial base of currency to "kickstart" it we have decided that this initial system balance should be distributed around as many accounts as possible, with the fairest way to achieve this being by way of a pre-launch purchase of eMu.  This will serve as both the system start point, and will allow us to raise additional funding to my own to push development and adoption over the coming 12 months.

Upon launch eMunie (us) would have zero eMu balance, I myself will allocate a small percentage of the total amount in the system at launch for my efforts over the past year and to use as a form of recouping my expenditures, with the view point of what I have spent on eMunie in those 12 months in my pre-launch buy in.  Of course if interest is low, then I wont end up with very much at all :)

I can't really give any solid estimates on what the start supply will be, as we haven't performed the pre-launch sale yet.  We will be announcing this officially soon, but until then it is a question I can not really answer as I have no indicators to determine what it may or may not be.

Growth over the first of course depends totally on demand for eMunie...if there is little demand, then low volume of eMu will be created and vice-versa.  The system tries to manage & regulate inflation along with market value as best as it can so that both growth and value are predictable over time.   I will be purchasing eMu from the exchange for the system to work with to help meet these goals post-launch.

I hope that answers your question :)

Launch will be some time in January, hopefully the beginning, certainly before the end.

Quality of the client and system are THE most important thing to me, and I've delayed launch 3 or so times now because I wanted it right.

Everything is in place now, technical workings are finalized, and there will be no more new features between now and launch, so I won't be slipping again much if at all.

The features look very promising and superior to bitcoin but make that open source.

We need to know if decentralization, security and privacy are respected. Don't worry, the scammers here won't be able to clone your coin without guide...

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Have you seen all of the ALT-Coins in this sub-forum?

Sorry, but some of them are smart enough to take existing code and paste it into their own alt-coin and then announce "We have a new Feature!!!".  Most programmers can copy/paste code and then tweak it to fit their application as necessary, and presto the coin now has a new feature. 

But to actually create the code would take them 6 months to a year, if they are even capable of coding it.  The P2P light and fast network is an example, how many white papers have been written on this functionality? And these P2P white papers have usually been written by a group effort, not a single coder.  Well Fuserleer has taken it a step further and actually created the P2P network.  That particular code module is worth millions of USD, EURO or whatever currency you want to use. Yet, Fuserleer has stated earlier in this thread that he is going to release it to the public domain in less that a year after eMunie launches.

I have a question about the demand based supply, as I'm sure other potential investors do too. If the point of the demand based supply is supposed to keep the price stable and avoid minimal fluctuations (correct?) what do I stand to gain from taking a big risk and investing my money by buying the currency? If the price is designed to remain stable how do I justify the lack of big potential payoff for the risk of investing?

As we all know in the early stages for a crypto currency actual usage for products and services is extremely limited and adopters are mostly drawn in by the investment potential. Once enough investors have been drawn in the coin gains critical mass and then there's enough people holding the coin to make it worthwhile for services to accept payment for it etc. This is what happened with Bitcoin and is happening with Litecoin.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this. My take on it is that you should not introduce a system to stabilise the price until after the coin has been very well distributed amongst adopters... Or perhaps incrementally increase the strength of the stablisation process... so the effect doubles in strength every interval.

Good Work Fuserleer, awesome coin.  :)

If people took the time to read just the 1st page, they wouldn't ask all the dumb ignorant questions that most due, which clearly shows they haven't even wasted 5 minutes researching the topic, yet they are all experts on the matter.

Why open source is important :
- It provide scrutiny from the community and thus security of the code.
- It provide trust (no I won't run a pre-compiled binaries that could contain any malaware, coin stealer, backdoor, or security critical bug)
- It help the common good buy providing solution to every one.
- Community will make the code better by correcting bugs, or adding new functionality.
- it provide a larger community

Why it doesn't matter if someone copy cat it :
- Community will stay behind the original
- If you are confident that your thing is the best then why would you fear a pale copy.
- For a copy to even grab attention, it would need a clever new functionality, so it will take time to develop.
- What would be the incentive to make a copy :
1)make a scam and profit : then it would be easily debunked.
2)make a better coin : if it is really better then it's a good thing, but it would be easier to add it directly to the original.

Sly

eMunie tells me to un learn Bitcoin and basically that Im stupid. I don't need anyone to tell me Im stupid I do a great job proving that to myself everyday. Thanks eMunie Im going to go masterbate with my tears. :'(

I believe most of these sentiments were shared by Satoshi (or I could be talking out of my ass).

I think you strongly overestimate the desire of the community to launch a clone. Ripple, for example, has yet to be cloned, and it's been open source for a while now.

You might be shooting yourself in the foot by going this route.

The whitepaper, to be useful, should contain enough information about the protocol that a third party could build a functional node from scratch.  And someone will probably try.

If it contains that level of detail, then it should also be possible for third parties to analyze the security / cryptography of the system, even without source code.

why do i keep finding my self agreeing with "Internet celebrity" Hazard ?

but yeah + 1

maybe we come form the same place ?


i'd even go further and say - if someone did try to clone it , they will guaranteed fuck it up in some way and it will be obvious that its a clone , but on the other side of that i guess , is well, the other side.

id be interested to know, initially, how may coins will be released beyond those that invested at the beginning?  they dont want to call it a premine, ok, so tell us how many extras will be released?

+1 on this, would like to know some kind of estimate on #'s for the launch.

Why wont this sleeping dog lie, ok, I'll pose a different scenario as to why I'm opposed to open source at launch.

I get all the above points and they are valid, no doubt, but the only point that everyone seems to keep concentrating on is clones and not the secondary point that I've raised many times.  I've never said never to open source, I've just declined to do it at launch....so....

eMunie at launch will have most of the additional features in basic form, messaging, chat, IM, ratings, profiles and a ton of other stuff will be bare bones functional.  Core functions will be complete, namely transactions (of course), ENS and P2P marketplace (aside from additional non-core functions later).

With that in mind, lets assume that we release open source at launch, and a competitor picks up the code....I dunno, Nxt is java and eMunie and Nxt are mentioned a lot in the same sentence so lets use them as the competitor.

We have announced our roadmap moving forward so everyone including NxT knows where we are going and what we are focusing.

Now, Nxt devs think, "hey, this chat is pretty cool, we'll grab that, and how eMunie manages to do it all P2P distributed including the security and focus just on that feature" they go off and spend 3 months solid improving our chat from the basic implementation.   We go off and improve/develop everything according to our roadmap.

Lets now assume that chat is the killer feature that crowns the next crypto, yes I know its unlikely, but its just an example.  Nxt have just concentrated solely on implementing out souped up chat starting at our code, we've been developing everything including chat and NxT's is better.

If that feature is the deciding factor, then we have just killed our chance of #1 spot because we released our code at a point where we have no edge on anyone else, and Nxt was able to get the edge overall because of the feature that was the decider on who became #1

THAT is the main reason I'm not inclined to release the source at launch, the goal here is to create a client so comprehensive in features and its execution over time that no one else can get a look in.  If we release the code before most of that is done, but the hard work and foundations are in place, then we just shoot ourselves in the foot and create real potential competition ourselves, which is quite simply crazy!

In closing, one of you points above is not true, loyalty...or more to the point, lack of it.  If BTC wasn't worth as much as it is, and was comparable in value to a competitor that was only slightly better, most would jump ship overnight.   This crypto arena is a kill or be killed environment both from the user side of things and the developer, so your claim that people would "stick with the original" isn't totally true.

Someone really told you that you were stupid? :S  I'm sure they didn't mean it sincerely, we have an odd bunch on the forums and some of them get carried away lol

The only eMu created at launch will be those that have been bought via investment prior to launch...there wont be any "secret" 100M eMu created on top of that or anything of the sort.

Over time new eMu are created depending on market demand and this is regulated by the system itself and its NOT constant.  Some weeks might be a lot, other none, it depends totally on what the market wants and the supply adjusts accordingly.

With that in mind, eMunie has no set limit...the limit is defined by the point where the market doesn't want anymore eMu.

Someone in another thread a while a go made the common mistake of stating that something with no demand over supply is worthless, which is incorrect...

Assume that everyone on earth has 10000 eMu, and it is enough each for everyone's needs...no one needs any more eMu, so no more eMu is created...demand < supply...that doesn't make an eMu worthless though, everyone is using it for daily transactions and such.

Does that answer what you needed?  I wasn't sure if I understood exactly what you wanted to know :)

got it....really looking forward to the features roadmap

Posting this for the third time now: (not setting a good example ignoring questions you find awkward imo).

I have a question about the demand based supply, as I'm sure other potential investors do too. If the point of the demand based supply is supposed to keep the price stable and avoid minimal fluctuations (correct?) what do I stand to gain from taking a big risk and investing my money by buying the currency? If the price is designed to remain stable how do I justify the lack of big potential payoff for the risk of investing?

As we all know in the early stages for a crypto currency actual usage for products and services is extremely limited and adopters are mostly drawn in by the investment potential. Once enough investors have been drawn in the coin gains critical mass and then there's enough people holding the coin to make it worthwhile for services to accept payment for it etc. This is what happened with Bitcoin and is happening with Litecoin.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this. My take on it is that you should not introduce a system to stabilise the price until after the coin has been very well distributed amongst adopters... Or perhaps incrementally increase the strength of the stablisation process... so the effect doubles in strength every interval.

Yes, would like an answer to this one. The coin sounds nice but where's the profit, Am I missing something?

Apologies I remember reading this and thought I had replied, pretty mad over here.

You have the idea the wrong way around, the supply & demand model wants to keep the value on a shallow upward trend, of around 5% per year, and minimal daily fluctuations are fine as all currencies (even "stable" fiat) have these daily fluctuations and trying to control them too would be very difficult and not what I want the system to be.

It's a 2 part system, one part attempts to achieve a steady predictable upward trend over a longer period of time, the second part attempts to combat large value peaks and troughs.

Ultimately what the model should achieve is a long term predictable uptrend of value, whilst at the same time preventing the market from creating pump & dumps and sudden bulltraps etc.

It isn't unlimited in its scope though, if there is a consistent upward trend, over and above what the system want to keep, that upward trend will win out over time. Likewise on the flip side of the coin (heh nice pun) if a large holder is trying to pump the price and has more eMu reserves than the system has available to combat it, that pump will eventually win out.

One thing that this model can't do anything about is a general downward trend over time, it can't take supply OUT of the system (unless the system buys it with reserves it has and holds it) but generally with current crypto's, downward trends haven't been a source of problem as we can see from the $1000/BTC valuation currently.

Feel free to ask anything else, I'll make sure I catch it this time :)

I think 5% is a great target gain for any stable currency, however, I do think that some (if not most) early investors would look for a bigger pay out.  People are pretty crazy right now with BTC valuation and alt coin potential.  I think what Emunie is trying to accomplish is bigger and more important that making a few early investors rich, and if it's popular, everything will take care of itself.

Also, from what I understand, when there is demand generated for eMu  (i.e. someone puts in a buy order for eMu), new eMu will be generated and distributed to those that already hold the currency, at which time the holders can decide to sell it. 

I fully agree with this. We need to be able to see beyond the quick and dirty pyramid altcoin atmosphere to build something worthwhile.

But the psychological fact remains that limiting initial investment ROI is a disappointment and greatly discourages investment. Is this the reason why it's so hard to clearly outline the range of initial potential profits, and for instance give out info about the amount of pre-launch allocation sold already?

Are profits for the initial investors technically capped at 5% per year? If not, what's a reasonable estimation / technical limit for the systemic roof for the profits of initial investors, say 1 month or 1 year from launch?

Both of you guys are making the same mistake that all do when I explain the above...I don't mean that as criticism, everyone makes the same assumption that a stable, gentle value increase doesn't give good return.

The ROI isn't made by the value, its made by the supply increase (msin you were SO close).

Assume I have 1000 eMu that cost me $100 @ $0.1 each and I was an early adopter.  All being well, eMunie will be a great success and there will be a lot of demand, but also assume that over time a nice easy uptrend in value is attained, and that 5% over that first year is met.

My 1000 eMu at the end of the 1st year is now worth $105 ($0.105 per eMu), not a great increase, supply inflation however due to huge demand is 1000% over the year.  New supply eMu is roughly split 50:50 between balance holders and hatchers as reward for clearing transactions.  I am a balance holder, so balance holders over the year will see a 500% increase in the amount of eMu they hold.

I'm now holding 5000 eMu @ $0.105 which equals $525, a nice ROI while at the same time giving a predictable, stable value of each unit.

Some might say that 1000% inflation is too large, but I pose these 2 arguments to counter that position:

1.  BitCoin and many other alt's have seen value increase upwards and above of 1000% this year alone, BTC in the past 3 months has risen from ~$100 to $1000, that is 1000%
2.  Unlike fiat inflation, eMunie inflation isn't stealing value from itself, the value comes from outside via the demand as people are buying in with some other form of valuable medium.

With BitCoin, the amount of BTC units is capped and creation of them is strictly controlled by the system over time.  The problem with this model is that value is pouring in from a virtually unlimited source, to a limited quantity of units.   Value can't be destroyed, so the only way for BTC to absorb that incoming value over time is for the overall value of each unit to increase, which leads to these HUGE unpredictable rally's, then sudden crashes as that value is then removed back out of the system for profit.

eMunie absorbs this incoming value via supply inflation which is distributed around the system proportionally and equally, so instead of increasing the value of individual units, the quantity of units instead is increased as required.

It is this which allows both stable value, PLUS the opportunity to profit long term and gain a ROI.

Good explanation Fuseleer, makes perfect sense. There will be inflation, but not like the FIAT inflation, where you actually loose value when you hold your money.

Thanks for the explanation, I thought I read the split would be 20% account holders and 80% hatchers.  Anyway, with your example of price per eMu at $.1, is that something that is fixed at launch and will continue to be a fixed?  It seems that a fixed price will ultimately drive away adopters who want an investment currency, which isn't a bad thing necessarily.

Originally (like 6 months ago) a 20-80 split was the idea....since then though we've done quite a bit of work with various models and analysis and determined that a split such as that would give too much power to the hatcher owners.   In the end a 50-50 split was deemed the most optimal in terms of keeping the currency supply nicely distributed.

No the price at launch isn't decided at all, that is down to the market, $0.10 was just as an example as that is value that was decided by the eMunie community for the initial pre-launch sale that is coming up shortly.

Will pre-launch sale be open to me even though I'm not a beta-tester? I would possibly like to buy a few thousand.

Yup, upon the announcement it will be open to everyone at that point :)

Very well, thanks for the explanation. I like the model, even if the initial pumping scheme is absent (or particularly because of that absence ;))


In that example, does "supply inflation of 1000%" mean 10x the amount of prelaunch issued coins are requested?

So the price of one Emu in USD terms remains the same throughout its life? What if people holding Emu sell to each other below this rate?

And once again, intruding: Why is the prelaunch purchase data not public?
I thought the sale was ongoing from Nov 18th to Dec 18th?
Who will decide the price, during the sale and after launch?

Thanks  :)

I don't want to sound naive, but how exactly will the market decide the value of eMunie at launch? (perhaps I missed the post)  And once that price is set somehow, is that in stone and then it's 5% increase a year from that point on?  Just trying to understand the pricing model.  Would love to see a thorough Wiki on everything, although I realize you are probably swamped.

What is the launch date for eMunie EMU?

Overall sounds like it has some potential. Glad to see something new coming out of the woodwork for a change.

If I understand correctly, (and Im sure Fuseleer will correct me otherwise) the price is not set in stone or fixed as such, rather the protocol is designed to keep the price stable by adjusting the supply of new currency to fit the demand.

High demand? The system creates more eMu: the price stays steady.

Low demand? The system lowers the rate of new eMu creation.

The price is allowed to fluctuate in small amounts day by day but is prevented from boom/bust.


eid

Thanks, I did get that sense, but I'm still wondering how the initial price will be set by "market".  Overall, I'm really excited about eMu, I've downloaded the client and it's really good!

Will the upcoming client be available for Mac osx?

The client is Java based (at least for now).



eid

All these useless PonZicoins make people greedy and crazy.
The community needs a true and useful cryptocurrency.

eMunie has Great features and an ethical concept.
I just hope what it promises is what it delivers..

Couldn't agree more.  I'm interested in a currency that people are using in commerce, rather than a commodity.  I've done a lot of vetting and research and eMu is very unique.  At this point, I'm all BTC and eMu in my holdings.

Is it already possible to buy some eMunie coins ?

http://emunie.com/download
not working

To get the client, you need to put your name down to join the Beta Testers (http://forum.emunie.com/index.php/topic/6-slots-full-beta-testers/) group. I beleive that the eMu presale will be kicking off on the 1st of December, for 1 month.

I like the goals of this creation, and I applaud the OP for following through. I have a couple comments.

1. Trolls: I think one major reason why Emunie is attracting trolls, as you put it, is that the name of it is a bit goofy, if you don't mind me saying so. It's kitsch. It's misspelled. It's like self-parody almost. You might consider a new name.

2. Inflation: Your inflation model is unnecessary. There's no intrinsic difference between doubling the existing currency of people holding emunie, thus inflating the currency base amongst those people, and bitcoin's system of deflation which causes people to divide their earnings, only the latter is far simpler and likely less exploitable (if an exploit does appear), but at the least causes less worry. Everyone knows there's only 21m bitcoin ever, but there's no upper limit of emunie, so that's a bit less good. Because currencies in the past have often been destroyed by hyperinflation--that's the typical way for fiat to die in fact, and bitcoin makes that impossible, but it looks like your system does not, and that's a worry.

The only reason people/economists/governments want an inflationary currency if because most people are debtors and want their loans to become cheaper over time; most economists are Keynesians and want to manipulate the economy with credit and by creating new money, and governments can greatly increase their wealth and power by controlling where new money gets spent.

You create here a system where people who have emunie also receive the new inflated money. That satisfies none of the concerns and wishes of the people above and they'll be just as against it as bitcoin's deflationary model.

But at least you're not outright making it inflationary in the way that a government makes new currency for themselves and gets to spend it all themselves, stealing value from all currency holders, at least you're not doing that, so I consider it workable if unnecessary.

3. Programmatic Security: SNakamoto programmed bitcoin using a specific means designed to make it very difficult to hack, have you taken similar precautions? Without the system being open source no one can really say. I appreciate your reasons for keeping it closed source for now and I think many will take this effort far more seriously once you do OS it, so you have a bit of a problem there--you want to see uptake before you OS it, but it not being OS'd actually hampers serious uptake.

4. Patching Bitcoin: To actually overtake bitcoin you will have to produce a system that can do things that bitcoin cannot do. It looks like you're doing that, and bravo. But if bitcoin can be patched to do many of the things that make your system more attractive as an ecurrency, then it's all for naught and your system becomes just another alt-currency proving ground for good ideas that end up adopted by the king-currency.

I actually find this rather likely, that bitcoin partisans if facing a true threat from another currency like this will simply mod in the missing functionality. They have the will, the developers, and the resources to do so, and it's hard to believe that they couldn't replicate just about anything.

I don't think they'd bother with the modular aspects you talk about here, the messaging and marketplace, those are better left as separate projects, and it's a bit unusual for an effort like this to spend time on them since they're adjunct concerns, unless the nature of this project makes implementing them as a corollary of the main system so simple that it's beautiful. Time will tell.

The main feature everyone wants in a cryptocurrency, now that bitcoin is making waves, is privacy of transactions. This system addresses it, but are you sure it's something that could never be patched into bitcoin ultimately. I have no idea.

5. A stumble: Lastly, circumstances of uptake. I can see either way this could go--I think bitcoin would have to stumble in some major way before the mainstream of cryptocurrency partisans, like all of us on here, would throw weight behind an alt-currency even as promising as this one--and it would already have to be OS'd at that point, or a system like this becomes the new defacto currency of the darknet for people conducting business so elicit that they can't rely on just Tor anymore, and then you'd better hope your programmatic security is up to snuff as the world's governments apply pressure.

And btw, how is your own personal opsec, because if that happens then they're going to find you and put pressure on you to corrupt your own creation in line with their desires. It is not for nothing that SNakamoto remained anonymous.

All that said, I've never even considered sneezing at another cryptocurrency, knowing bitcoin already had path dependence and the bandwagon effect on its side, but this is different enough to be interesting, so I wish you much luck. At the very least I hope an effort like this puts enough pressure on bitcoin to make it more private in various ways to match your effort.

http://forum.emunie.com/index.php/topic/420-ann-emunie-pre-launch-sale-details-information-draft/

eMunie Pre-Launch Sale

Duration: 18th November - 18th December

Is the pre-launch going on or not yet?

No, that was just a draft. He hasn't announced any date for the pre-launch yet.

+1 on this, some really good questions here.

Like Anenome5 said i really hope that it will work, time will show us the truth :)

Also be carrefull, you may have a Nobel price or a jail in Guantanamo ;)

With love.

Is EMU issued by DEV like ripple did,or it is mined like bitcoin?

Neither of them, new EMU will be hatched by hatcher-clients when the market dictates a need for more EMU. Hatchers will be rewarded with bonus EMU for the work.

At the upcoming launch most mediocre computers should be able to do hatching, but as the market and hardware requirement expands elemental hardware for running a capable hatching machine is CPU, memory and SSD.

All of this sounds good in theory, and I applaud your efforts in trying to combat the volatility that we've seen in digital currencies.  But I'm wondering in the real world how soundproof is this algorithm.   Can artificial demand be introduced to inflate the supply?  What about when demand severely dries up, are EmU taken away or does money creation stop?  Something just doesn't sit right with a potentially 'unlimited' money supply ... makes me think of central banks and money printing.  

Is this money creation throttled in some way or is it a direct 1:1 relationship?

While no one likes the ups/downs and wild price swings, the more it becomes adopted the less volatility you will have.  I personally would prefer the price swings with a knowable supply amount.

When demand stops, creation of new eMu stops.

When demand stops, eMu is dead.

eMunie is truly a 2nd generation crypto

I've got one question.
If eMu supply increases when there is more demand, how will the value of eMu increase in the long run?
What is it about eMu that is attracting big investors if they won't be able to make any profit?
The only way for price to increase is if supply remains unchanged or falls when demand increases. But if supply increases with demand, then the price will only stay the same or fall if there is too much supply.

If you could clear that up, I'd be most grateful.

So mainly eMunie is made to be stable and not to grow in unbelievable heights like btc.
The price can still increase like the other alts. Its happening if people sell their coins e.g. 0.2$ instead of 0.1$ in the pre-sale.
If nobody is selling the system is generating some coins but i dunno how the price would be if the last price was e.g. 0.2$.

Hopefully Dan's Answer(Dev of eMunie) can help

"Interest

To combat this inflation due to the effect of the increasing work in the system, a portion of the supply eMu's are passed to the accounts already holding eMu as "interest". Interest is calculated as the current annual % increase in eMu supply, as per demand, plus a % increase to ensure equilibrium. This ensures that while the new supply of eMu entering into the system may have higher "value" due to more work done to achieve them, all other eMu's in the system, while worth less, are topped up with new, more valuable eMu to guarantee that stake holder of current eMu does not loose out.

Interest is ALWAYS higher than new supply %, even if just marginally, except in the event, that demand ceases to exist, or is 0. Interest is then also 0 to ensure the equilibrium and solidify the value of all eMu in the system. "

http://forum.emunie.com/index.php/topic/139-emunie-latest-technical-and-feature-set-ramblings-29th-june-2013/

so if i want to run a hatcher on a VPS.... will it require any emunie credentials to be stored on the VPS?

I think so, there 'll be something like wallet.dat

I think I don't fully understand emunie yet, but I'd apprecite any help that lets me further understand.
Also it makes me a little skeptical if a developer needs several forum pages to describe his project.
I am a big fan of simplicity (btc and other coins) ....not even sure if all fearures like chat, email really are
necessary or just a bloat, ppl don't change. nobody will drop email or text for these features.

But my questions is in regard to supply demand and price stabilisation.
Let's say the presale is over an people got their emunies at $0.1 a piece.
What prevents other people from putting in buyorders at $0.0001 ?
Obviously there would a demand that nobody would be willing to fill.
On the other end, what prevents people from offering their coins at $100.00 a piece?

So my question is what triggers inflation? Would you guys fill the demand at $0.0001 and inflate
the whole currency by giving other ppl more? Obviously you must have thought of threshholds that trigger influation... how can this system be self-regulating and how do you prevent ppl messing around with it?
Also, is there a limited supply of reissued emunies per timeframe or unlimited supply all the time?

Thanks.

eMu is going to be a really interesting experiment for a number of reasons.

Thanks! Insightful... don't bother to elaborate... I hope that wasn't an answer to my questions above.

Do u mean this little birdy - https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,2750.msg27177.html#msg27177 ?

I don't think it's a scam.
If it is a scam, he will be encouraging people to invest and promising high return. He has been doing quite the opposite - delaying the public presale launch and letting people know that the price appreciation is going to be limited due to the price/demand stabilization mechanism.

I don't understand this part of eMu either, can someone provide an explanation? 

No, someone who has been a member for a long while.

have you make up your mind? because you seems confused ;D

Can someone explain to me why is it a good idea to invest in the upcoming eMunie IPO?

Since this currency is anti-hoarding, why would I want to own it and invest in this IPO?

eMunie is legit 2nd gen.


What i meant was, NXT is the only one alive and active with everything functioning live. 

everything mentioned above should give you plenty reason not to invest.
as far as i know emunie is dead anyways. not that i'd care.

The inflation model allows the price of Emu against other fiat currencies to be more stable than bitcoin. This allows merchants to accept payments in Emunie without worrying about massive price swings. With Bitcoin, merchants usually cashout their bitcoins upon recieving payment.

Hoarding or as i like to call it; "storing your economic power" is absolutely viable with emunie. A projected increase of 5% a year on the price as well as receiving a stake in the new supply of Emu's going into the system. Emunie can be seen as "anti-hoarding" only when compared to bitcoin as their is much more incentive to hoard bitcoins due to its 21 million fixed limit. The more people hoard bitcoin, the more the price of bitcoin rises and falls in an unpredictable fashion because demand spikes and hoarders cashout.

However when FIAT collapses due to excessive money printing; the issue i stated with bitcoin will not be a problem anymore as there will be an ecosystem of suppliers>merchants>consumers using bitcoin. But until FIAT collapses or made redundant, emunie is currently the best solution as a crypto-currency in competing with FIAT.

Java, MySQL or Derby are needed to run eMunie so what would happen if there is an exploit or bug found in one of them? Will eMunie be able to be easily updated without causing any disruption to running clients (other then a quick update/restart)?

Java 8 will be out soon and people will most likely upgrade to it, will this cause a problem? People using Java 6 haven't had much luck running the client so It seems like Java 7 is needed that's why I am asking this question.

Thank you.

Couldn't you say the same thing with bitcoin? as it uses C++ and whatever database software is uses.

Of course I'm not familiar with the actual code (noone but Dan is), so I can only answer this from my experience with java applications in general.

The java runtime is (usually) upward compatible. Java 6 lacks certain features and can therefore not be used for eMunie. Java 8 OTOH should contain everything that's already in java 7, so I wouldn't expect problems there.

Database access in java is normally handled through database drivers using a standardized API. That means you can (usually) update the actual database without changing the drivers, and you can update the drivers without modifying the application using them. For example, as a beta tester I know that eMunie does not depend on a specific version of MySQL. I've even used it with MariaDB instead of MySQL.

It seems to me that it work with java6 also.
I was able to run the last version of the
client using openjdk6 on linux without major problems.

Just saw a forum thread that there is also going to be a C++ client. Don't know how its going to be ported but we shall see.

Just a quick question. Will this coin be available? When will be the IPO?

Check this thread for up-to-date information: http://forum.emunie.com/index.php?/topic/1533-go-live-timeline/

The timeline is being updated (i. e. adapted to reality :-/ ) regularly.

How about MS SQL? I'm wondering about compatibility with MSSQL 2008 specifically. I was not part of emunie's beta program. Can someone shade some light on this?

Thanks.

MS SQL is not supported at this time.

Feel free to add this to the wishlist: http://bugs.emunie.com/projects/emunie-bug-tracker/issues?set_filter=1&tracker_id=2

This reminds me of exactly what the federal reserve was made for. Except, eMunie will do it 100% correctly. There is no human or entity that makes decisions based on greed or misinformation but instead, there is 100% accurate data coming in from anyone around the world that wants the currency. The only thing is, I believe a digital commodity like btc, nxt, ppc, or ltc would have to compliment it, or even a combination to allow for the buffer to be autonomous but not be competition. My preference would be peercoin, peercoin and eMunie were pretty much made for each other in a perfect economy!

Just my two eMu's! :)

any updates on the IPO ???

If OB2 goes well, IPO will be open fir 2 weeks as of the 30th of this month. Just after pay day! :)

Thanks but I still want to punch Dan in the nutz for all the delays   >:(

hello emu

I'm happy to wait if it means a more robust, researched and secure product. Also, some time to save more for the ipo.

The more I read up on it though and its core design and infrastructure, the more I can't wait to start using it. I just hope nothing goes wrong and fuels the trolls.

The amount of trolls here is really high
maybe the joke is on them :P

How IPO?

If you know something I don't, please continue. I'm open to facts, opinion and sometimes just plain speculation.

In case you haven't heard, Dan is writing the non-technical paper. He is post frequent updates here-

https://forum.emunie.com/index.php?/topic/1750-emunie-currency-stability-supply/

According to the strange system to hold the price on a fixed number, and to spend the newly created coins mostly to the hatchers, do you think there is value for investors?

I see what you're saying but I see it differently. 50% of newly released eMu will go to the hatchers and 50% to the current holders, which is fair considering bitcoin miners get 100% of their mined coins. The actual distribution of these eMu's will be distributed based on the 'mining' they do and each hatcher is restricted to a tree of connected peers.  What also makes it interesting is its features that have the capability of promoting massive growth (and therefore demand) which won't compete with current cryptocurrencies but will (if successful) work better with another cryptocurrency.

ROI will come from a possible price rise (the system aims to reduce volatility, not suppress the price) but mostly from new adoption, therefore more eMu. eMunie will appeal more to merchants due to the more stable price and this will induce the network effect that other innovative platforms have received.

You also mention that it is a strange system, I don't think it is. The Federal Reserve of the US does the same thing but it aims for set inflation every year BUT the money isn't distributed to it's citizens, they have incomplete data and the sin of human greed (also it being a private company) influences a profit model, all of which eMunie corrects.

Keep a close eye on this.

Is this the same level of detail we can expect in the paper describing how the network will be secure against attacks/double spends? For which a model has yet to be provided even a year later. Not even the basis for a model. Just some nodes that are magically assumed to come to consensus and a lot of window dressing.

The fundamental solution that bitcoin brought to decentralized consensus has been thrown out by emunie, but no replacement has been described. Be very wary.