Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin is new and uncertain. With the new and uncertain can come great rewards or great failures, right now it is looking like the later is taking hold. So far we have seen

25k stolen
trojan wallet stealers.
MtGox hacked
dwolla reversing payments.
MtGox glitch sending price to million per coin.
MyBitcoin the largest online wallet service, MIA and no info what so ever and no way to contact the owner as yet.
The 3rd biggest exchange had 17,000 coins go poof. In the normal market even if something like this was to happen and their was no backups, you could get most peoples stocks back, it would just take time and research but with coins, they get destroyed and they are gone, no one can refind them later.


This is a lot for someone looking into bitcoin to handle.

So are you bullish or bearish now on the coin? How many more of these growing pains until it really effects the price? What can be done to help end amateur hour here?

And you forgot the most boneheadd move of all: eliminating forum.bitcoin.org

+1 .. but it does indemnify bitcoin.org from legal issues.

You make it sound as if other currencies don't have problems as well.

Exactly, look at the dollar - S&P stated this morning that even after the debt ceiling is raised they will still downgrade US credit rating to AA. People are talking more and more about leaving the USD as the reserve currency. The EURO, well lets just say that's a whole sandbox of disaster. It's like kids spent a whole week building a sand city and then a 3 year old came in and went Godzilla on its ass.

Bitcoin is taking shit just like the rest.

Well so far today MtGox took a 50 cent hit and is struggling to recover.

Yea we're going to hit the $12 range again any time now...

People need to stop selling and prices will increase.

People need to stop buying and prices will decrease.

People need to stop trading and prices will stagnate.

People need to stop breathing and I will be happy.

I didnt want to encourage the price to fall any further. So far the destruction of forum.bitcoin.org has remained off the main stream bitcoin news.


and yeah the dollar has problems but these are predictable problems as mentioned. They are economic in nature. And for the most part the dollar is well established in our lives and people know that if you lose a wallet with all your dollars in it, that even if you get the wallet back, it is unlike you will get the dollars. People are used to it and the dollar doesnt have anyone it needs to win over as a viable investment currency(even if you think it is a poor investment)

Bitcoins is trying to win hearts and minds and it already has some things against it. It is technical. It is different. It is hard to explain well. It suffers greatly from all the people who too one glance and said pyramid scheme. It suffers extremely from misinformation. Like on the mtgox hack, people constantly say it was counterfeit coins. It wasnt.

I know our trials and tribulations are not that big in the grand scheme of things, but it will turn off people who are kinda shaky about bitcoin. And I do know many investors who were initially interested who now dont want anything to do with bitcoin.

Funniest thing I've heard about BitCoin lately; I brought up bitcoin services forum for the second time in two weeks to a starving graphic artist who seems kind of tecchie and was complaining bitterly about not having the resources to sell her services.

"I'm not interested in that bitcoin/Amway stuff!"

No wonder she's starving. 8^)

Bitcoin being so easily hacked is one of the big reasons I say that it will never take off. These hacks will continue and if the mainstream ever uses bitcoin, most of them will lose their coins.

lol. Well I agree she isnt being smart. There is risk to bitcoin but that would be offset by expanding her market and in the growing bitcoin market, her services should be pretty desirable right now.

I agree with joulesbeef.  There is a demand for graphic design here for under $300.  I say under $300 because that's where designcontest.com seems to start off at.

The sad part is I've seen some of her work and it's *great* stuff.

Oh well...

You know not of what you speak.

Bitcoin has *not* been hacked no matter how often people like you say it.

If someone is looking for graphic design work, my wife happens to be an excellent graphic design artist (not that I'm biased or anything.) We posted a few things here and there on various bitcoin job boards, but all we ended up with was more spam in our email.

I'm just not sure the market is there yet, but if someone is looking, feel free to send me a PM.

My outlook on Bitcoin has not changed from the day I first purchased.  I equate it to a penny stock.  An extremely speculative investment with the chance for tremendous appreciation but an even greater chance of failure.  Gambling money, basically.

The bad press is just a symptom of the problem, which is Bitcoin lacks the necessary infrastructure to be widely adopted at this point.  Either Bitcoin gets through the growing pains or gets taken under by them. 

Totally agree on the penny stock analogy. It'll fall very very hard once the promotion campaign is over. Remember it was trading at less than 1 penny last year, without having any real value.

Cashing out all the remaining coins at $13 now (well, if it gets re-pumped, I won't regret either as I'm continously mining as well).

Good points about the penny stock. What has really changed in a year that makes bitcoin worth $30 or even $13? Really nothing has changed except it was hyped up with a few major news articles.

I wish I would be able to short bitcoin.

I also have become involved with Bitcoin under the impression that it was highly speculative and that there is every possibility of losing every cent I 'invested'.

I actually am quite impressed at how well Bitcoin has held on so far under the never ending barrage of misfortune.  If anything, I have more confidence in it now than I did a month ago (and have upped my bet noticeably.)

I hope against hope that Bitcoin fulfills the desires of the 'good' people in the community, but even if it does not, I see a possible trajectory as follows:

Bitcoin becomes a tool used by non-state actors and the intelligence communities to hold and transfer value.  Bones are tossed out to keep people mining and transacting, but a lionshare of the utilization is cloaked.  Shadows and traces of it's primary function might be noticed by sharp-eyed observers, but not much more.

Come to think of it, the use as I've described above and the more 'wholesome' use as a currency free of debt-based money problems may not necessarily be mutually exclusive.  But I ramble...

Good thing you can't short it, because I'm happy to continue to sell btcs as I know short-squeeze is not very likely :)

Fixed.

What promotion campaign, you mean the spike to $30? That's long over.


https://www.google.com/trends/viz?q=bitcoin,+USD,+gold&date=ytd&geo=all&graph=weekly_img&sort=1&sa=N

orange: gold
red: USD
blue: bitcoin

The USD is getting a ton of press time, but is dropping. Gold has the most hits, though the line is fairly flat, yet gold prices are at record high.

Bitcoin has a microscopic amount of google hits compared to USD and gold. "What promotion campaign?" is a valid question.

we do need to push it more.. the google trends is pathetic

I'm open to suggestions on how to get Microsoft to design a reasonably secure operating system. Better people than I have been trying for years without success.

For the time being, we should be hitting up sites like www.Bitmunchies.com is mass numbers.  Security isn't as much of an issue if you want to sell your BTC right away -- then, responsibility to be safe and secure falls largely upon the merchant (which he should be doing anyway if it's a business).  Besides...if I can run my errands in a few seconds online without paying for gas and spending the extra time, that's a damn good reason for me to buy some BTC at an exchange and immediately use them to purchase tangible goods.  This increases demand, gets the currency circulating, and bounces the value of BTC upward.  I think if people saw this happening and thought, "Hey, these guys are paying the same they would if they went to a store, but pay for no gas, spend less time, are not required to input sensitive credit card information, and have their order shipped right to their door!" then that will spark interest.  And, you don't really have to worry about losing you BTCs....they'll be spent soon anyway.

People blaming Microsoft are just plain ignorant. The security attack can happen on other operating system too. Because Windows has more market share so hackers spend more effort on exploiting holes in it. Plus, I don't think exchanges are using Microsoft SQL servers.

Shouldn't the loss of all these bitcoins suggest that the supply of coins has decreased and the remaining are therefore more valuable?

User Friendliness is paramount! Even windows with its stupid security problems is still the dominant operating system WHY?! because it is user friendly!

+1,000,000!

Smartest comment in this forum in weeks!

I will be announcing a business plan soon with my upcoming wallet site BitWal.com. I think you will like what you see so stay tuned smalley :).

No, not exactly.  If the coins were lost through theft (as most of the losses have been) then the coins aren't gone from the money supply since the thieves have to USE the coins in some way (buying things, selling for cash) in order for them to make a profit, i.e., the supply is the same but the coins have simply shifted ownership.  I doubt most of them are ideologically motivated to simply take bitcoin down or to raise the price.


Maybe, but I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that OS X and Ubuntu are far more user-friendly than Windows.  What Windows has going for it is critical mass and good business marketing.  Windows adoption took off because of its widespread adoption by business--you will likely adopt for home use whatever your work requires so you can do your job properly, and other businesses will adopt Windows so they can be interoperable with their clients/other businesses and most importantly use essential trade-specific programs.  Microsoft did a really good job marketing to businesses with volume discounts and support plans.  Computer manufacturers also got locked into Microsoft-only deals early on, and consumers had no other choice.  Apple dropped the ball by trying to have their cake and eat it too (controlling both hardware and software).  Microsoft also tied Windows strongly to IE and Office in addition to the other aforementioned business programs; while IE is slowly being eroded away by FF/Chrome (for most of us it's not even a contender anymore), anyone who doesn't use docx now is at a severe disadvantage (although many governments/organizations are switching to ODF, but Microsoft also bullied its way somehow into ISO certification).

tl;dr It's not about ease of use at an individual level but market forces that force large-scale business decisions.

dont think so... OS X is for computer users who have absolutely no clue of informatics and nearly no logical thinking... everything's so simple, tha the dummest person can handle with it... (but you cant change very much of the system)
-> most userfrendly but shit

Windows is for users with more logical thinking and a bit knowlege of informatics (yo dont have to see the solution, you'll find it if you think logically). the more you know, the more you can change the system. it's usable for dumb and intelligent people, because you can do more qith windows if you want, but you dont have to.
-> less userfrendly, but as user you've got more possibilities

Ubuntu is quite simple, at the beginning, but most dumb people dont see what all you can do with the system, so they will be bored short time after installing... an informatician can change nearly everything. if you want to use Ubuntu with all his possibilities, you have to know much about informatics ant think absolutely logical...
-> in the beginning userfrendly, but after short time of using it is not.

means the bitcoin client and the exchantges have to look much more professional (placebo effect for mainstream), simple and userfrendly to use for first time users, but with much more possibilities for advanced users!

look at an applestore, the product they sell are IMO one of the worst, but they present it white, clean, simple, trustable, uzseful for the dumbest person

right? ;-)

I don't think it's user-friendly at all; just look at the stupid shit people do to bork their systems.  The only reason why it seems "usable for dumb people" is because they grew up using it and forget about the steep learning curve it had in the beginning; also there is a HUGE industry set up just to help people use their computers and to save their asses after they inevitably fuck it up (geek squad, antivirus, etc.).  No other system do you have to reformat and reinstall as much as Windows, even if you use it properly.


What?  A dumb person doesn't want to do any more with the system other than their basic needs.  They treat a computer like a microwave or any other appliance--it does a one or a few functions (email, facebook, youtube, google), they learn how to use those, and don't bother with anything else.  Why would they get "bored" with it?  And for that matter, why would they not get "bored" with OS X and Windows if they can't figure out how to use those either?

E.g., my parents used to use Windows because that's what it came with and that's what they used at work.  They would inevitably have problems and so I would troubleshoot over the phone, clean/reformat once every 6mos-1y when I would visit (more when I lived with them), and if I was too busy they would just take it to the store.  A few years ago I installed Ubuntu for my mom and after the few initial calls to figure out how to do certain things (flash, streaming video, downloads, etc.) she hasn't had any issues since.  Now when I come to visit all I have to do is upgrade, which is free, painless, and optional anyway (so I only do it if I have time).

Maybe I'm just one of those "dumb" people but I have no idea what you're saying about Ubuntu here.


I agree totally.  We need one of those gaudy, saccharine "Web 2.0" beasts with tons of AJAX, rounded corners, faux-3D effects, and cutesy animations for this to gain any mainstream appeal.

you're not an idiot, you're only not an informatican

@vulgata

See, thats what i ment what's Ubuntu about...

I like and use Ubuntu, but that's the reason, why i normally use Windows, and run Ubuntu on a stick..

Funny that :) Do you think that is the reason most serious developers use OS X? Well they do, because A. it's a solid OS just like linux and B. it increases productivity by making your life simple. So you know, you can get shit done instead of struggling with mediocre Windows problems :)

I guess I have a different level of "dumb" than everyone else then... there's a separate application just for installing closed-source drivers that has never let me down and installing my miner was as simple as typing "git pull".  Any problems I ran into were solved with Google, same as when I was on Windows and OS X.

Of course there are going to be isolated incidents of people having problems with their computers because of a unique combination of hardware/software, but again Windows has a huge industry behind it that exists to solve all those problems for you for a profit.  You paid a computer manufacturer to configure Windows perfectly for your hardware, they pay Microsoft and hardware companies to write drivers so it all works together, and you pay for a service agreement to solve all your problems for you.

Similarly, people who use Linux seriously (servers, finance industry, businesses, governments) pay Red Hat, Oracle, etc. for that kind of service and reliability.  They just haven't pushed hard enough into the desktop arena like Windows has.  But again, that's an issue behind the business side of selling OSs, not a technical argument.

there is a reason why most businesses use linux in the back while their sheeple non techie employees are all on windows. And it is a bit more than "we have always done it this way that is why"


you can quibble all day about if either is more user friendly or if you can get the same level of customer service from redhat as you could from MS.

at the end of the day, it is cheaper on businesses with windows up front and linux in the back, even if it doesnt seem like it with all them damn windows licenses.

Huh, I have been replacing all the Winxx OS on the computers at work. When I check back a few weeks later to ask how they like the new Ubuntu OS, the just say... "wha? I didn't notice anything".

Anyway on topic. No I don't think it will be so bad for BTC. The examples you mentioned are mostly not problems with bitcoin.

really hard to believe you can say that. Many people used mybitcoin as they did not trust having their wallets on their own computer with various bitcoin trojans. Now suddenly the place where they felt safe, disappears without a trace. And that is about 100,000 bitcoins, many of those people were current traders. If you just lost 1000 coins would you immediately go buy some more? If you didnt feel safe with the wallet at home and the biggest most recommended online wallet just disappeared, would you go looking for the second biggest?

yeah some of my examples are only small straws on the camels back. The MTGOX glich for example. But it just adds to peoples unease. DO you really doubt that ANY stock would not go down with similar level of bad news?

I'm not saying it would hurt long term, I hope not. it will if this shit doesnt stop. But you would have to be blind to not see it has hurt the short term. Why do you think we are at $9 right now? due to all the good news?

Well, I agree with your idea that prices are hurt by bad press. What I meant about those examples not be bitcoin problem is that they are not flaws in the fundamentals of bitcoin.  Scammers, shady or unprofessional websites, market manipulation, those are problems with people, not bitcoin.
If SHA-256 were broken, now that would be a flaw.

Ok i understand.. you are right.. most of the flaws so far are growing pains and people starting to recognize that bitcoin is a target for scammers cause it is new, a lot o fmoney goes through it and people dont have good security habits yet.

The problem is that Bitcoin is only as good as the people using it.  It can't exist by itself in a vacuum.  While we as techies/geeks may write off the human component and market stuff as less important than the "fundamentals", they are just as essential to its success as the client, network, and crypto are.  Too many of these incidents (and they're getting worse as more people get involved and centralize more) may sour the public on the whole idea and drive them away for good.

It's like high school all over again, isn't it?

This was (still is) one of my biggest questions about bitcoin. There is supposed to be a max of 21,000,000 BTC eventually, but how many will get lost, deleted, etc.... 10%? 20%? more?

(*WARNING - wild imagination about to go wild*)

What if bitcoin actually succeeds? Say bitcoin gains mass acceptance, and then some wacko decides to bomb a bitcoin convention with the intent of decreasing the supply in order to drive up the demand/price??

Wait, I missed the part where everyone at the convention was toting around their entire wallet on their smartphone and were the only one's in their family/circle with access to their backups.

nah but a ton of coins have already17,000 have  been lost at that one exchange, and tons of people have screwed up and lost their coin and tons quit with change in their wallets but the more that our lost the less that should be, as value goes up, once we get all 21 million, hopefully fractions of a bitcoin will be worth a lot, so people will tend to lose small fractions rather than whole coins.

Still once lost bitcoins are lost forever. unlike gold

joulesbeef, part of the beauty of Bitcoin.  21 million (slightly less) is the upper bound of BTC.   Loss is not insignificant.  Study compSci (computer science) and investigate "order O notation", upper bound and lower bound become significant factors... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation

Same principles apply to BitCoin money supply.

Unfortunately, yes  :-\