Bitcoin Forum

Secretive startup 21E6, another mining-machine seller, is believed to be backed by some of the wealthiest people in Silicon Valley; its co-founder is Balaji Srinivasan, a former Stanford University professor and data-mining expert.

I just read this:

21e6

I've mentioned them a couple of times...  no one seemed to comment.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269093.msg3059525;topicseen#msg3059525

Well tell us more.

if i knew more i would've told more !

all i know is that the founder is a stanford professor with a good reputation - BALAJI SRINIVASAN... and that there's serious money involved.  we know they raised $5m.. but maybe more...

and that they've got a lot of bright people involved.

and that they've been working on it longer than several of the other guys.. so, one would assume that they're keeping it secret.  this is the only 'secret mine' that I've ever heard of.

the big question is... what does $5m buy them?   does it get them enough to design and build their own silicon?  and what silicon will it be?  is it state of the art 28nm, or is it a cheaper, older process node?

heck, with their connections, they could even be trying to go for 20 or 16nm...!?

we don't seem to see any of their miners hashing so presumably they don't have silicon back yet, or maybe it didn't work, or maybe its not good enough.. which is odd, as people who started later than them have already received their silicon or are expecting it within a month or so.

maybe it went wrong?  maybe they got delayed?  its a mystery that such an experienced and well funded team seems to have not (yet) achieved their goals.

I think 20 or 16nm is way out of discussion. $5m should be enough for a 28nm mask(design included). Where or when did you heard about them and how? Do you know for how long are they working on this project?

depends if they've raised any more money or not.   for all we know, they started developing an asic that wasn't good enough and then re-started the design with a better asic.

everyone here who said 20 and 16nm is not going to happen til 2015 and 2016 is plain wrong.  it will certainly happen before then.  if there's a compelling reason to use it, it will be used.  i am still betting someone, somewhere will release in 20 or 16nm during 2014 !

Anyway, when and how did i hear about them?   i heard from several sources during the summer.   Heard from investors (like me) and from people who've met them or considered joining them.  everyone knew what they were up to but didn't know any precise details.  And the amount of cash they raised is public record.  But since its a secret mine, and since I'm not involved in any way with them, i really know nothing about where they are on their project...   All we know is they are very smart people, and pretty well financed !

If you want to decide for yourself whether you think Balaji is capable of doing it.. see his recent techcrunch panel here.    I personally think he's exactly the right guy for it... seems very smart, knowledgeable and well connected.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl-HZWfxUFw

Why didn't you invest in them if they are so smart and so well financed? From what you are telling me it seems that you made a wrong decision not to invest in them.

it's hitting the saturation point since bitcoins is a "zero sum" game.
meaning that another company takes away from a limited amount of coins.
price of bitcoins has to be much higher to sustain all these companies long term.

there's already 10+ companies maybe 15 involved with asics. the pie is 100% - how much can they each control?

We need more info.

IMO, they should've raised these funds 3 months ago (then again, with all the new money I'm seeing come in to our industry, many of the principals may have never even heard of BTC 3 months ago).

May be too little/too late.

i am still betting someone, somewhere will release in 20 or 16nm during 2014 !

Not unless you have enough money to build their own fabrication plant  :P

Any new node will be booked solid for years by the likes of IBM, Intel, AMD, nVidia, Samsung etc. for their own products.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants

i am still betting someone, somewhere will release in 20 or 16nm during 2014!

Not unless you have enough money to build their own fabrication plant  :P

Any new node will be booked solid for years by the likes of IBM, Intel, AMD, nVidia, Samsung etc. for their own products.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants

Still think that, Gator?

It's already a fact

http://www.coindesk.com/kncminer-pre-orders-next-asic/

https://www.knc![/quote]miner.com/pictures/carousel/5442.png

I got my quotes out of sequence. Gator was the one who said it wouldn't happen. I said it would.

thats incorrect.  tsmc has said they've done tens of customer tapeouts in 20 and 16nm already!

in several articles, tsmc has said more than 25 customer tape-outs so far and more planned for 2014...

http://wccftech.com/tsmc-begins-volume-production-20nm-chips-q1-2014-16nm-finfet-chips-q1-2015/

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20131022230815_TSMC_Shares_More_Details_Regarding_16nm_FinFET_and_20nm_Progress.html

thats incorrect.  tsmc has said they've done tens of customer tapeouts in 20 and 16nm already!

in several articles, tsmc has said more than 25 customer tape-outs so far and more planned for 2014...

http://wccftech.com/tsmc-begins-volume-production-20nm-chips-q1-2014-16nm-finfet-chips-q1-2015/

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20131022230815_TSMC_Shares_More_Details_Regarding_16nm_FinFET_and_20nm_Progress.html

If the money came in last March or April, and they had a design already mostly RTL'ed, I would expect their engineering samples would start to trickle in this Feb or March.  Perhaps products in May or June.  They're still someone I want to watch out for, but they're doing a good job at running a tight ship, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Except they're said to be all in-house, no consumer products. Although it could just be a load of marketing hype for future salesof consumer products, I guess ("We now offer you the chance to buy the most closely guarded mining technology the world has ever known..." etc)

I think 20 or 16nm is way out of discussion. $5m should be enough for a 28nm mask(design included). Where or when did you heard about them and how? Do you know for how long are they working on this project?

$5 million should be enough for them to develop a chip and product.   

Take my rumor for what it is. I take what I've heard in earnest, but you know, grain o' salt and that. The points I'd like to point out are...

1. 21^6 controls 12% of the bitcoin mining production. Sounds like a sizeable chunk to me. Evidently they were going for 20%. 
2. Belaji is a fucking evil genius, in the best kinda way. He's fucking great. And not evil. Nevermind.
3. The company intends to remain private, and distribute the bitcoin dividends to their shareowners, permanently. It's pretty cushy if you're a shareholder.

I figure this thread to be dead, but I happened upon a very unique bit of information y'all might be interested in. Figure what you will with it. It is recent information.

very interesting. I am going to do some additional digging myself. thanks.

21E6 operated since 2014 in a commercial wholesale DC, using modular turnkey infrastructure (not the new DataTank systems).
Percentage of network in low single digit during 2014 decreasing as difficulty went up (to my best knowledge based on MW numbers of a facility on the east coast).

Did you mean this?
16 megawatt lease from CyrusOne in Phoenix by a bitcoin mining firm whose name has not been disclosed

Did anyone has info about new funds 21e6 raised to expand the mining operation?

Secretive Bitcoin Startup 21 Reveals Record Funds, Hints at Mass Consumer Play

For the past year and a half, a Silicon Valley startup has quietly convinced some of the biggest names in venture capital to back its effort to turn the technology behind bitcoin into a mass-marketed phenomenon.

Now, that company, which bears the name 21 Inc., is emerging from stealth to announce it has raised $116 million in venture funding, the most ever by a startup in the digital-currency sector, based on data from bitcoin news service Coindesk.

What it's not yet publicizing is the precise nature of its operations, Chief Executive and co-founder Matthew Pauker will only say there will be "several interesting developments over the next weeks and months" about software and hardware products designed "to drive mainstream adoption of bitcoin."

Since its launch six years ago by a mysterious coder who used the presumed pseudonym of Satoshi Nakamoto, bitcoin has drawn media attention as a wildly volatile digital currency. But amid stories of scandal, theft and turbulent prices, the general public has largely ignored the arguments of vocal supporters, who tout the digital currency's potential to cut costs by removing middlemen from finance and commerce.

According to Silicon Valley investors such as those taking stakes in 21, say that failure to gain mass adoption is partly because the public's attention has been misguidedly focused on bitcoin's limited potential as a digital alternative to traditional currencies. In reality, they say, its underlying technology has far wider applications than that. Unlike the currency transactions that are generally associated with bitcoin, these new uses could range from lawyer-free smart contracts to tamper-proof online voting systems.

21's lead investors include U.S. venture-capital heavyweights Andreessen Horowitz and RRE Ventures, along with Chinese private-equity firm Yuan Capital, with a strategic stake going to chipmaker Qualcomm Inc.QCOM +0.25% through its venture-capital unit.

Additionally, Khosla Ventures and Data Collective have invested in 21, as well as chief executives and founders from various tech companies, including PayPal co-founders Peter Thiel and Max Levchin, eBay Inc. co-founder Jeff Skoll, Dropbox Inc. CEO Drew Houston, Expedia Inc. CEO Dara Khosrowshahi and Zynga Inc. co-founder Mark Pincus.

Mr. Pauker said Qualcomm's involvement is key. He hopes to exploit the Bridgewater, N.J., chipmaker's mass-marketing and production capabilities in the development of a suite of consumer products that integrate with bitcoin's core technology called the "blockchain." This technology takes the form of a public, digital ledger that's maintained by a decentralized network of thousands of independently owned computers.

Qualcomm's involvement could spur speculation that 21 has its sights on the so-called "Internet of Things." That's the idea that a myriad of smart, Internet-connected appliances will in the future communicate with servers, networks and each other to optimize their operation, maintenance and energy usage without direct human involvement.

Some developers believe that bitcoin technology could play a key role in transparently managing the vast flow of information generated by these smart gadgets. The decentralized blockchain ledgers are free from the control of any one party, so smart appliances can in theory connect with computers built by other entities safely without worrying that the information was manipulated.

Starting out under the earlier name of 21e6, the company – which takes its name from the 21-million limit that bitcoin's managing algorithm imposes on the total number of bitcoins to be released – spurred intense speculation in November 2013, when a regulatory filing revealed a $5 million fundraise.

Members of the bitcoin community speculated about a secret vehicle for Silicon Valley elites to develop high-powered equipment that could dominate bitcoin mining. Mr. Pauker's comments about a consumer focus suggest that isn't where the company has ended up.

The initial secrecy around 21 was "solely for pragmatic reasons – we didn't have anything to say to the world," – says co-founder Balaji Srinivasan, who is also a partner at Andreessen Horowitz. He compares 21's work in building bitcoin products for the general public to the sequential development of 56-kilobit Internet modems, international fiber cables and wireless Internet towers, which all helped bring the Internet into people's homes in the late 1990s.

This notion also has parallels with the mass Internet appeal achieved in the 1990s by the development of the Netscape browser by Marc Andreessen, a co-founder of Mr. Srinivasan's firm. Asked for his views on 21, Mr. Andreessen said it "is working on what they — and we — consider to be core infrastructure for mainstreaming bitcoin."

21's announcement extends this year's upswing in venture capitalists' digital-currency investments, highlighted by January's $75 million fundraising for San Francisco-based bitcoin wallet provider Coinbase Inc., whose investors include the New York Stock Exchange. Bitcoin-focused venture capital more than tripled to $347 million in 2014 from a year earlier, according Coindesk.

The money flow is paving the way for products and services aimed at transitioning bitcoin from its volatile, Wild West beginnings into an era of more secure infrastructure and mass appeal.

A week after its funding announcement, Coinbase unveiled the first licensed U.S bitcoin currency exchange. Later, high-tech security company BitGo Inc. launched a unique insurance program, while the New York-based Digital Currency Group's Bitcoin Investment Trust earned regulatory approval to become the first publicly offered fund dedicated to owning bitcoin.

Well-funded custodial and financial services companies Xapo Ltd. and Circle Internet Financial Ltd. have also developed high-tech security and insurance projects. Meanwhile, San Francisco startup BitFury Holding BV has launched new, high-powered chips to take bitcoin mining to a new level of intensity.

None of this will matter if bitcoin doesn't achieve mass adoption, says Mr. Pauker.

"Bitcoin is going to change the way that people and businesses and even machines interact with each other," he says. "But for bitcoin to realize that vision we need mass adoption. It can't just be for Silicon Valley."

Related:

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/03/10/secretive-bitcoin-startup-21-reveals-record-funds-hints-at-mass-consumer-play/

Yeah I'm pretty excited about the prospect of cluttering up the blockchain with masses of IoT traffic. I really hope my internet-connected washing machine doesn't spend all my coins on frivolous purchases.</sarcasm eyeroll='true'>

Yeah I'm pretty excited about the prospect of cluttering up the blockchain with masses of IoT traffic. I really hope my internet-connected washing machine doesn't spend all my coins on frivolous purchases.</sarcasm eyeroll='true'>

"The spam attack took place between 23 December 2013 and 6 January this year, said Proofpoint in a statement. In total, it said, about 750,000 messages were sent as part of the junk mail campaign. The emails were routed through the compromised gadgets.

About 25% of the messages seen by Proofpoint researchers did not pass through laptops, desktops or smartphones, it said.

Instead, the malware managed to get itself installed on other smart devices such as kitchen appliances, the home media systems on which people store copied DVDs and web-connected televisions."

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-25780908

http://verybadfrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Futurama-Professor-Farnsworth-Meme-I-dont-want-to-live-on-this-planet-anymore-24.jpg

Sorry if I'm the only curmudgeon not happy about a digitally immersed world, but I don't want spambots able to rout Giant P3n15 emails through the wireless sensors attached to my regular-sized one. And I certainly don't want the already-rapidly-expanding bitcoin blockchain filled with them either. Maybe if they want to start their own Spamcoin for IOT devices and leave the rest of us alone that'd be alright.

Yeah I'm pretty excited about the prospect of cluttering up the blockchain with masses of IoT traffic. I really hope my internet-connected washing machine doesn't spend all my coins on frivolous purchases.</sarcasm eyeroll='true'>

Intel factories, the documents suggested, were responsible for at least two generations of 21 bitcoin mining chips, a 0.57 w/GH 22nm FinFET chip (codenamed CyrusOne) and a 0.22 w/GH 22nm chip (codenamed Brownfield).

The documents suggest 21 had sought to build 20,000-server, 26-megawatt datacenters to serve as the center of a mining pool that could ensure block rewards.
As an example of the potential power of its pool, 21's mining operations generated approximately 5,700 BTC in 2013 and 69,000 BTC the following year, according to the document.
By the time its chips were to be embedded into Internet of Things (IoT) devices, 21 projected its cost to produce 1 BTC could be as low as $7.45.

The chip names are actually datacenter names.  
CyrusOne has large datacenters all around America and started out here in Texas.  http://www.cyrusone.com/  I remember reading they had rolled out some large implementation in an earlier post with them.
Brownfield = http://www.datacenterdynamics.com/news-analysis/pennsylvania-company-hopes-brownfield-becomes-data-center-gold/91898.fullarticle

How much MW or PHS does 21co have? They say that have a lot of Phs ans they are cool guys. I'm looking at organofcorti statistics and I don't see 21co. Where are they?
Looks like bla-bla-bla

The more interesting thing was the 0.22 w/GH 22nm chip, 2.5 times more efficient than the latest generation miners.
If they already have that and are running them they're making good profit.

The more interesting thing was the 0.22 w/GH 22nm chip, 2.5 times more efficient than the latest generation miners.
If they already have that and are running them they're making good profit.

Another statement pulled out of the ass.

For example, 21 indicated it had been processing bitcoin transactions with what it called the "only chip" built at computing giant Intel’s foundry, touting close relationship with US computing giant Intel.

Intel factories, the documents suggested, were responsible for at least two generations of 21 bitcoin mining chips, a 0.57 w/GH 22nm FinFET chip (codenamed CyrusOne) and a 0.22 w/GH 22nm chip (codenamed Brownfield).

you might want to reconsider this comment
http://www.coindesk.com/21-intel-bitcoin-mining-strategy/

I was referring about the 2.5 times more efficient. Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, not 2.5, but 2.3
Currently the most efficient miners are at around 0.5W/GH.

You do realize that might be the power consumption at chip level right? It might be at wall too, but we don't know.

Just to be even more pedantic, we don't really know the accuracy of those values, nor any good way to verify them. I am personally doubtful about their Intel relationship, but there is also no way to confirm nor refute it. In my experience, Intel is VERY secretive about what they are doing in terms of chip fabrication and their plans. In my dealings with them, when you ask the time, they hesitate to decide if it's OK to disclose that information.   :)

The one take away I have from Bitcoin mining is that it's important to realize that massive improvements in mining capacity, by themselves aren't really helpful. If you have a 1Megawatt facility, that's producing X Petahash, when you have the option of upgrading to new technology (i.e. more efficient), it's better to lower your electricity costs and still just produce roughly X Petahash. If you just replace all your mining gear and still burn 1Mwatt but produce 2X Petahash, it doesn't last very long. In a month, the difficulty adjustment has mitigated most of your improvement. However, if you still produce X Pethash, but you only burn 500KW, you are money ahead for longer.

That's not really true until you have a massive amount of hashrate.

5 PH/s at 0.5 w/gh earns $12,000 per day and costs $3,000 per day for electricity*. (profit = $1800/PHs/day)

5 PH/s at 0.25 w/gh would earn ~$12,000 per day and cost $1,500 per day for electricity.  ($2100/PHs/day)

10 PH/s (adding 5 PH/s to the network) at 0.25 w/gh would earn ~$23,800 per day and cost $3,000 per day for electricity.  ($2080/PHs/day)

50 PH/s at 0.25 w/gh would earn ~$106,900 per day and cost $15,000 per day for electricity. ($1838/PHs/day)

*assuming $0.05/kwh

So even if they added 45 PH/s after upgrading, they'd only be reducing their profit per PH/s by ~13%.

The only thing that is truly relevant is to consider whether bitcoin is finished if it is mined by just four companies and their associates.
i happened to see no future for bitcoin if and when it is ONLY produced (and dumped en masse) by Bitfury, KnC, Spond/bitcoinshop and Bitmain+associates.
This makes no market and 2014-2015 bear market and super slow (if any) rise in transactions volume proves it.
How can we, current miners, continue mine when nobody will sell most current miners to us? it's just self explanatory.

maybe 21 inc is crazy and it won't work, but without this proposal, bitcoin will be dead or severely marginalized within a few years.

So far I have seen nothing to suggest that the 21Inc miners won't all be working with a single 21Inc pool, have you?

So for you the threshold of "decentralized" is 5 instead of 4? So far I have seen nothing to suggest that the 21Inc miners won't all be working with a single 21Inc pool, have you? I have zero reason to believe that any such gadget will be configurable to me to any degree than beyond that required to make it work within the "21 Bitcoin universe". I supply Internet and electricity, on my dime, and maybe I get something back from 21? This just distributes geographically the miners. It doesn't significantly change the dynamics any, in my opinion.