Bitcoin Forum

Ok... so the general consensus around here is basically:  Don't sell till it will be life altering...

I've been pondering this... just what would I consider "life altering" ...  and for the life of me, I can't nail it down to a single point....  the best I can come up with is a couple different, non-exclusive life altering points:

1)  sell enough BTC to  pay off the mortgage and all debts.  At this point, I can tell my boss to shove it, and still maintain my lifestyle on just about any other job...  Walmart greeter comes to mind...   Just the psychological value of "debt free" and "I don't need THIS job" would be, in my opinion, life altering.

I'd call this "comfortable"

2) 2.5 million USD in BTC....  This is definitely life altering, as at this point, I don't need _ANY_ job.  I can retire, maintain my lifestyle, and even take a couple vacations per year.  And as the above, the psych value of knowing you'll never have to say "yes sir" to a boss ever again...  very life altering.

I'd call this one "moderately wealthy"

3) 15 million USD in BTC ...  Mansion, Yacht, Strippers, Blow ...  umm..yeah...  that would qualify as life altering.

umm... "very wealthy"

4) 50 million + ...  Money really looses its meaning at this point.. I can't grok what my life would be like at this level...

"Ultra wealthy / Elite"


Note, if done right, one could cash out a portion at each level.  So as stated above, none of these are mutually exclusive..... (of course at 4, and possibly even 3, "cash out" is meaningless as anything you want will be priced in BTC anyways...

Due to the rise in value, I think a lot of us are going to have to start thinking about the above as we exit the accumulation phase of our BTC investments...

Just wondering what everyone else thinks would be a worthwhile "life altering" level to start cashing out?

Regards,
Sigg

aaand... this kind of posts makes me want to sell everything and wait for the crash in order to scoop more coins.

great paradox of Bitcoin:
When it is time to cash out, we won't have to cash out anymore

The reason why no one would really reach any "life altering" levels? most people are scared when amount of money they have in bitcoin reaches a level they feel uncomfortable keeping. So, if you ever saw say 10k in usd, you will not hold 100k in bitcoins - you'd be long out of it by that time.

It takes one to really believe in bitcoin project to store more than 90% of your total wealth in coins and sleep well. And the true believers might be rewarded, but that would be a side effect. If you are just greedy, you are cashed out in the pennies.

Lol, you silly goose.

Exactly why one should think about these things before they become a reality..  need to take the emotions, including greed,  out of the equation... 

<Greeedmode>
If Bitcoin becomes $1000000000000000000000000 I will cash out and own the planet :D
</Greedmode>

yeah that s true. But also one might learn and with time improve.
i'm in that case i guess and feeling better and better having most of my capital in bitcoin.

[EDIT] my 2 cents if you discover you get some money out of that rise : DO NOTHING, relax, buy yourself a pina collada in the closest bar, find a pizza buy whatever gadget you want to play with and keep cool.

THIS.

As early adopters some of us saw this potential a long time ago and should start thinking about this scenarios.

Every early adopter, at least ones who held through a couple of crashes, can reward themselves with converting part of their stash in some first-world luxury goods. It would also make keeping the rest psychologically easier.

I think for anybody who would dare living with 90+% in bitcoins, with it's huge volatility cycles, it would be a luxury life and business flights to Maldives during the rallies, followed by getting back to corn and water during the slides down :) It's hard, but lots of fun.

Consensus  ???

Nope for me, spend your coins whenever you need and rebuy (preffered at crashes times). Works best

I call that an immature attitude towards wealth and exactly the kind of mindset that will lose you all your money very quickly. Just look at various rappers and athletes. 15 mill isn't that much really if you're planning on living on it for the rest of your life (depending on how old you are.)

yep, best advice from an incidental millionaire who managed to stay millionaire (that I read somewhere) - don't change your lifestyle, at least for several years. get used to having the money, don't go in an apeshit crazy spending spree. Then, once you get over that sensation of being able to buy anything you want (without actually buying it), you can start improving your life gradually. Otherwise, you quickly end up with no money, tons of expensive shit which require expensive maintenance, and feeling like a fool. Remember, there is a whole huge world economy built to efficiently part fools of various caliber with their money. Learn where the traps are, first.

Yeah.. I know..  wrote that one kind of tounge-in-cheek since the whole strippers & blow thing has been a running theme in these forums for quite awhile...

in all seriousness.. 15MM would be something along the lines of:  Upgrade to a nice house, decent bit of world travel, and a very generous inheritance to my heirs.  

Do have to admit though.. it would be quite life altering for the 9 months it lasted till you were either broke again or in jail  :P

If in the US, plan on giving half of the profit to the government.  So to keep that $15 mil, you will need to make 30 mil.  Unless of course you just spend your coins or attempt to avoid taxes.

Please check out Risto's "SSS" plan: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345065.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345065.0)

With this method you are continuously divesting of your bitcoins according to a discplined price-based schedule.  If bitcoin ever becomes a dominant world currency, you do extremely well; if bitcoin flops after hitting $12k, you do pretty well too.  The best part is: once you pick the "rake %" that best fits your risk tolerance, you no longer have to worry about timing the market.  

Didn't read through, there is still this problem that people expect fiat to be what they consider wealth.. when btc is worth millions..your not cashing out for fiat,your spending em.. get this idea, cause I love it.

Have read the thread and even posted on it...  My current plan follows a slightly modified formula, but is very in line with the base concept.   For anyone who hasn't read it... please do.  It is definitely worth the time.

This is ridiculous to me, but that's me.  Idiot's who blow 15m whatever,  I could easily retire on 1m in the west and far less in Thailand or India. 

Studies suggest that happiness for the average American as a function of income plateaus at around $75,000/yr. We are who we are, and once we get to a point where we're not actively stressing about money, our natural temperament takes over.

So you probably won't feel all that different between your various scenarios; especially between 2 and 3. But you kinda sound like you'd blow the money on stupid stuff regardless. I'd like to think that most people with that sort of wealth try to do genuine good with it.

I feel you, vokain

If you really want to figure out your life-altering number, first figure out your life-altering amount of *spendable* passive income, and then multiply by 50 to get your net worth needs.

So, if you want to live off $100,000 for life, you need $5m cash.

You only get to spend 2% of it per year, because on average you might be getting 8% returns (if you're good) per year, and:
- 40+% will be taxed
- 3% you need to put back in just to fight inflation (we're talking USD here...)

Bottom line, if you have 50+ years left to live, limit your spending to 2% of your net worth.

Smart advice.

Actually this thread is interesting and needs more input. Makes you think "What is enough?" and "What do I need to be happy?"

I read a psychological survey, which I agree with, that states that after a certain wealth level money do not impact happiness. I think it's true, once you have a home, stashed money, car and maybe a self-sustainable life, business. After this level it's only greed or altruism can be your partners. Either you spend on hookers, yachts and fast cars, either you save every penny, literally, and use it for some great project.

There are lots of things that can be done: cancer research, industry, ecology etc. You need solid money and solid money politics for that.

I think a man should work at 8hrs a day for somebody else or more than 8hr a day for himself. Retiring on a beach is not a good thing to do. It can have serious consequences on one's mind and body. Saw some cases with people with lots of money who lost it...

I subscribe to the 'friends and achievements not money' mindset. I don't want money, just a good reputation and a lot of connections so that I have people who want to make cool stuff with me!

Scratch the "work for somebody else" part and I'll agree - this modern day slavery is not necessary at all. Definitely, once your brain stops working you are degrading much faster than you evolved. So you should always keep it busy, run some business, do some work you actually like, play chess, etc, the more activities the better. Finding a right cause to support for the rest of your life with your money and energy is an ideal solution, if you find something to believe in, deeply.

The 8hr a day worked for somebody else is a form of slavery, but many people need it. And you cannot simply want to run a business without working first.

I recently saw a man, with a pretty big business who told me he has to sell a part of it, because it's so big he cannot manage it alone. He need know-how on modern corporations and he lacks that because he didn't worked a single day.

Running your own business isn't for everybody. But it certainly is for me ;)

Haha I'm having a blast so far! Launched Pirate Printing Company in earnest last night, already got 9 bitcoin orders!!

For me the "enough" question can only be answered by having an income from property or shares that means you never need to work again.  Work should only be for what interests you.

What business do you have? If I may ask.

Ideal business is one that you take from 0. Like having a small rented apartment, learn, make money, learn more, move to regular office, hire etc. I do not trust business started with large capitals and lot's of employees. I mean, it's like a baby. You coinceve it, but it cannot be 10. Has to grow organically.

Like having a small rented apartment that you list on airbnb (http://airbnb.com)  ;) Speaking of which, when are they going to start accepting bitcoin?

Surely answer is more complicated than it seems, as a few have alluded to. If 1 BTC = something ridiculous like $1M USD, isn't is very possible the USD has devalued and that you're better off paying for your groceries with satoshis rather than USD? A loaf of bread might be USD$100 at this point.

The only reason BTC gains value as a currency is if it's adopted widely.

I think a better question to ask is; "Assume in years to come bitcoin is the de-facto world currency. How much does a Big Mac cost in bitcoin? What's considered a life-altering amount of bitcoin in 2030?"

I was uncomfortable when I first got in. I literally spent every penny I had in savings on BTC. I haven't been comfortable in nearly two years, and I don't plan on being comfortable for quite some time.

When I do get comfortable though, its going to be under a pile of women.

I haven't cashed out anything but the mere fact that I have some nice wealth stored somewhere makes me spend my ordinary money a bit more loosely. Also, this looming wealth has somehow altered my aura in a way that I've been attracting more women lately.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/ART-PRINT-Poster-SEXY-BUM-ASS-4-PF11-/00/s/MzU2WDU3MA==/$(KGrHqIOKkQE6PIllH-YBOwZTpd6!Q~~60_3.JPG
Maybe the confidence has increased or something but I can tell you that the vibe is different these days. The difficult part is determining how much money you can spend per lady in order to remain within the borders of rationality (the most efficient risk/reward ratio). Luckily this amount can be calculated from a typical price of a hooker making the intrinsic value of a female being equal to the cost of paid sex. I wonder if Thai chicks accept bitcoins already.

Pic somehow related.

You should see some of the posts on the litecoin reddit board.

$1M to retire ? maybe if you're 60 , but if you're a young dreamer and ambicious $1Million isn't enough these days, some countries that will barely get you a home, good car, and few savings for your kids' future & investments/business. Not sure about INdia and thailand but i hear housing isn't cheap there either and not everyone would want to do that.

$1M buys a solid apartment in inner city Melbourne ??? but no change

Exactly, then what? If you're Australian you should make sure you have a decent amount of Coins if you want the Bitcoin dream, it's just too expensive to live.

If you're the kind of person who has to appear to be the richest man in the room, you're right.  However, if you just want to be self employed doing something you love and not starve, $1mil is plenty.  Hell, it's excessive if you own lodging and transportation debt free.

You also have to account for future inflation. Who is to say $100,000 today, will be $100,000 20 years from now? Best to keep your wealth in bitcoin.

I find myself reading this thread wishing for a poll next to each post with options along the lines of:

- This guy will be broke in 5 years
- This guy will still have some btc in 5 years

Think this (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1rs2qv/micropayments_are_awesome_lets_test_em_out_for/) will make me go broke? /endshamelessselfpromotion

Ten million USD

$1 million on house, luxuries, cash, etc
$6 million in mutual funds/bonds
$3 million in rental properties

Use the rental properties as your income. Dont touch the mutual funds till youre 65, let them compound... then you retire with a hundred mill. Realistically one can do a toned down version with 2-3 mill though. And of course just holding bitcoin you may make more than any of these investments.

For example, the way I made my decision for life altering is talked about in my blog post.
http://unratedtogm.blogspot.com/2013/11/how-i-made-30000-this-month-by-not.html

Now, I never went long on bitcoin so its slighty different. The similarity is I had the choice to hold a position and wait for it to double again (ive doubled at least 3 times in the last week), or cash out. I chose to cash out even though it will hardly leave me any extra cash, just because getting rid of any debt is so fucking awesome.

So my point is, give priority to #1... maybe go a bit above 1, so you have some coins left over that you keep going long on in case they go up in value even more. (eg cash out 75-90% and retain a 10% position).

Good luck.

I think the important thing here is to reinvest a significant portion of the bitcoin profit to other stores of value. If you won the money with a lottery it would be stupid to just spend it.

So, techie, how did you get hacked?

It may be meaning lost or misconveyed in text but are you trying to be a slight asshole by writing that? You could have just said:

"So, how did you get hacked?"

Let's see.  Keep it for a year.  Quit my job.  Make less than $70,000 (joint) in a year.  Pay that 0% tax rate.  Whew, those taxes are brutal...  ::)

Here is the bracket for 2013:

January 1, 2013 -

Hold   1 Year or More      

10% tax rate = 0% capital gains tax rate   
15% tax rate = 0% capital gains tax rate
25% tax rate = 15% capital gains tax rate
28% tax rate = 15% capital gains tax rate
33% tax rate = 15% capital gains tax rate
35% tax rate = 18.8% capital gains tax rate
39.6% tax rate = 23.8% capital gains tax rate

Note: Obama is trying to change this for 2014 but they didn't get it done in time for 2013, so keep that in mind.

Here are the current Adjusted Gross Incomes for these brackets:

2013 Tax Brackets (For taxes due April 15, 2014)
Tax rate    Single filers       Married filing jointly or qualifying widow/widower    Married filing separately    Head of household
10%      Up to $8,925      Up to $17,850                     Up to $8,925         Up to $12,750
15%      $8,926 - $36,250   $17,851 - $72,500                  $8,926- $36,250      $12,751 - $48,600
25%      $36,251 - $87,850   $72,501 - $146,400                  $36,251 - $73,200      $48,601 - $125,450
28%      $87,851 - $183,250   $146,401 - $223,050                  $73,201 - $111,525      $125,451 - $203,150
33%      $183,251 - $398,350   $223,051 - $398,350                  $111,526 - $199,175      $203,151 - $398,350
35%      $398,351 - $400,000   $398,351 - $450,000                  $199,176 - $225,000      $398,351 - $425,000
39.6%   $400,001 or more   $450,001 or more                  $225,001 or more      $425,001 or more

Long term capital gains (held more than 1 year) do not count toward AGI.  Short term (held less than 1 year) do.  Also, get a house payment (interest) and some kids to offset your AGI.  Also, donate to your favorite charity instead of the goverment if you like them better to get into a lower bracket.

I store over 90% of my wealth in BTC.

*ahem* that may be because I am not wealthy, and anything is more than 90% of zero. But hey :D

FTFY  ;D ;D ;D

Yes, I was being sarcastic. Nevertheless, I would still want to know how did you get hacked as I didn't spot the attack vector in the text you referred to.

You really expect me to give you details after you insult me? Don't really know what brought it on....

His name is Hyena and his avatar is of some demented meathead with a gasmask. You had higher expectations? He also edited his post, after acting like a user's day to day OS somehow determines their computer competency.

Work should only be for what interests you, but I'd hate getting my basic income from any form of property - I think property rights are grossly over-rewarded in this economy and work is grossly under-rewarded. If work were properly rewarded - especially automation work performed by past generations, which shouldn't make just a few current owners rich but rather all of society - there would be enough money to ensure a decent Unconditional Basic Income for everyone, so that no one would have to take a job they disliked just for fear of losing their basic livelihood. Then we could have everyone working on what really interested them, which would lead to far more creative output and higher-quality products and services across the board.

Socialists using bitcoin. Oh the irony.  ::)

The Basic Income idea was also supported by people like Milton Friedman. Big Socialist, that one. ;)

I'm actually here for two reasons: 1. I think Bitcoin is like a game played with money, not something serious that has any really-long-term future and 2. I've noticed a lot of extreme right-wing pseudo-libertarians around and I'd be happy to take some of their money. :)

Smart people also have stupid ideas, you know. Unless you hold anyone with a famous name to be infallible.

Edit: Yes, I've been aware of your type. It's evident when things get slightly political. Unfortunately opposing social and monetary philosophies can not reconcile as they're generally one in the same.

I never insulted you (at least not on purpose). But sorry for bringing up a painful memory or something. Just thought that others may learn something from your mistakes.

If you brought this up then I'll put it on bold: a user's day to day OS somehow determines their computer competency.

This is true. I switched to full linux in all of my computers 2 years ago when I had too many bitcoins lying around in my windows machines. Knowing that windows is a giant security vulnerability, a bitcoin techie should never want to use this OS.

The demented meathead on my avatar is me. It's a nice trap for people who judge by stereotypes and you just fell for it.

I didn't bring it up, you did, you dunce. Just because you decided to ninjaedit doesn't mean people didn't see it.

Funny, you criticize others for not being "techies" through subtle jabs yet you were so insecure of your own understanding that you had to switch to a OS with a small market share to avoid being owned. You don't see the humor in that?

No way, you don't say?

You're looking for a fight. You're not getting it from here. Much of love to you nevertheless.

Yes, I was. You can fake the "high ground," but just do yourself a favor and crawl back in your shell. Try not to be a jerk to people for no reason next time.

Thanks, I will. Don't have a shell though. By the way, I actually meant to send you love, it was not fake but I needed to imaginatively equalize your essence with mine in order to be purely sincere.

Are you 100% sure about that? I don't believe that entrepreneurs selling their dot com businesses get away with 0% tax. I certainly didn't.

The tax code is complicated. I'm pretty sure the capital gains doesn't count towards your AGI it terms of taxing your other income, but it certainly counts in terms of which capital gains bracket you will be taxed at.

If you're sitting on a capital gains of $70k+, talk to a tax accountant to make double-sure you're not going to get fined stiff penalties for not abiding by the tax codes.

God bless you for bringing this to my attention

What do you think about the airbnb ipo?
I read already 2-3 articles on big news and 1 says the price for the abnb stock (https://www.tradingview.com/symbols/NASDAQ-ABNB/) will be about 45$
zerohedge said yesterday that it will be about 80$?
is there a method to know exactly before the ipo itsef?