Bitcoin Forum

Distribution figures here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316297.0).

At $1100 per bitcoin, there is between 1000-1200 people whose bitcoin stash is valued at $1 million or more.

I think the emergence of a new bitcoin Jet Set class will have a great positive impact on bitcoin's price going forward. What do you think?

It would be nice to see how the millionaires are broken down, e.g. $1m+, $2m+, $3m+.

very interesting, as usual. By the way, dear rpietila, don't pay attention to the idiotic threads and posts that popped up recently: even if they say the truth, this is not the place for such discussions, I feel close to you, everyone has its own problems, big or small, that deserve respect and privacy. Keep up the good work, don't listen to those primary school kids (with no offense intended towards primary school kids).

I think so too if bitcoins millionaires do something different than hoarding till they die

In what way?  You mean by leading by example buy making big bitcoin purchases - like jets or something news worthy?

Btw, a million dollars does not equal "Jet Set Class".  Once we have 1000 bitcoiners worth over 200 million, then I think we can really start this thread.

I don't know.
Lost wallets. Investment funds. True believers. Anarchists. Get rich quick....
Such different characters. Hard to predict.

Only 1000 persons with 1000 coins or more? I think that in the 1k range we have more than that, I'd say at least 2000 persons. Just remember that 1000 coins just costed $12.000 in January 2013.

I am not sure about this proposition (I, for one, would start spending as soon as I decide I have enough savings to retire), but the reverse is certainly true: bitcoin's price going forward will have a great positive impact on the emergence of a new bitcoin Jet Set class

I wonder how many people have 100 coins or more. 100,000? More?

I wish i had 100 coins, i'm not even close.

11000 according to the post linked in the op...

This would only be mathematically possible those were the only bitcoin holders in the world and they all had a roughly equal share.

I think it's probably a pretty accurate estimation, it's almost certainly less than 2000, based on what we know of distribution patterns. It is statistics like this that highlight just how small the bitcoin community/economy really are. Even with all the press and attention we have had this year, and stories of people "striking it rich", we have still only created about 1000 new millionaires.

I think that there could be a bunch of people who have wisely diversified into multiple addresses.  So I think your data may be inaccurate -- you can't really tell if there are 500 or 2500 1k BTC holders.  Could be a constant factor or more likely the normal distribution is thinner on the blockchain than it is in reality.

But I think the essence of your argument and analysis holds...

I truly doubt Bitcoin has created 1000 new millionaires if you know what I mean...

As is the case for all early miners. Solo mined blocks go to unique addresses. You cannot tell that they are going to the same person or wallet.

http://bitcoinrichlist.com/top500

That list is one of the inputs in the distribution by brackets (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=316297.0) thread. Just comparing the addresses does not give the correct picture of the very large holdings (multiple addresses, unspent block rewards), and also ignores the ppl with solely exchange accounts.

Whoever really wants to delve into the matter should read that thread.

I wonder about this all the time.  Firstly, I think very few people would have invested $12,000 to buy 1000 coins in January, given the bitcoin environment at that time and the accessible demographic [younger tech-savy people with less lifetime savings].  Further, let's say ~50% of those that did invest in quantity sold most after the price doubled, tripled, or ten-timesed during the March/April run up.  Another ~40%--who thought bitcoin was the road to great riches--sold when they saw their dreams shattered during April crash.  The small percent who kept their coins through the bubble, have probably already sold a lot by now during this last run-up in price.

Only an extremely rare individual like yourself Rampion could be tempted by a huge amount of money in April, watch most of it disappear a week later, and then get a second chance at even greater riches now, and still not pull the trigger on the majority of his coins.    

Here I was thinking that perhaps a mere 1 million does not change anybody's life at least in high-cost countries. But several million will do. Depends on person, but most of us will feel considerable economic freedom after the net worth hits 2, 3, 5 or 10 million. I don't think anyone who started with humble means can say that $10 million is not enough for personal needs for the rest of his life.

The number of 10-millionaires is still small, but this (the economically free people, no matter how many million) is the class that can have considerable impact if they just

It is easy to give himself as an example. So I do :) I switched to all-Bitcoin in March 2013 and have spent 66 hours per month writing on this forum. If I was short of money, I could rake in anything between $200-$5000 per hour doing various things. But I regard writing about Bitcoin economics as more important. I am free to do it, and I am changing the world with my own small part.

The world at large is still absolutely clueless about Bitcoin. We can say that the general awareness was only really reached last month. The previous bubbles generated publicity, which faded away. Now it is not fading away, it is gaining grassroots adoption, and I believe that by trickling the knowledge that I and others generate, to the masses, the party can go on and on. It is possible that 2014 will be the year of Bitcoin. Yes, I am aware that 2013 already saw 100x gains ;)

There may be 1000+ Bitcoin "millionaires" but most of them are probably not cashing out any of their coins at this point.  Perhaps they are selling off a small amount?  I would think that they would just sell a small percentage to live off of but who knows.  Everyone has their own idea of when they want to sell and for.  Also, many might be the true Libertarian types that are just waiting until they no longer even have to trade their Bitcoin for "yucky fiat" as they seem to put it. ;)

Put yourself in the bitcoin millionaire's shoes. Option 1: "cash out" thereby deliberately entrusting your new fortune to a counterparty; Option 2: "stand pat" and continue to enjoy zero counterparty risk.

I do appreciate your writings and thoughts Mr. Rpietila, they are very influential in helping me realize the future power potential of Bitcoin and what that responsibility entails

Perhaps next year will also see the rise of the Supernode.

Bitcoin has zero counterparty risk?  Not true.  To cash out and use the money for buying a car, house, taxes, food, schooling, etc, the bitcoin holder must have someone to sell to.  If no one turns up to buy those bitcoins then the holder just has a bit of worthless data.  That's a counterparty risk, although of a slightly different nature to say, a bank going bankrupt and taking all the money.

Bitcoin has another counterparty risk coming up in the next few years.  If bitcoin becomes popular enough for even a tiny percentage of the world's population to use it daily, the blockchain will become enormous.  There will be few people willing to store terabytes of data on their computer just to send and receive bitcoins.  The data and wallets will be kept in the hands of relatively few companies.  Better hope they're good and honest.

You are talking about risks, not counterparty risk, imo.  A bitcoin in your personal wallet will always be a bitcoin in your personal wallet, and provided you took the necessary safety precautions, its not going anywhere.

The blockchain can grow up to 1 MB every 10 min. That will take roughly 20 years to reach a single 1 TB. 1 TB isn't that large now, imagine how tiny 1 TB will be in 20 years.

You're discussing currency risk. I.e. the risk that the currency value fluctuates. However given a global currency with a fixed and declining rate of inflation the currency risk is probably lower than just about any other currency you can hold.

Meh, I think bitcoin is still a lot riskier than fiat. We still have to see how everything works out.

If you live in 1st world country, I'd say 5 mil USD are more than enough.

You really are a great asset for this forum. I wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for you. Was tipped off on another forum about a "a crazy Finnish guy who wrote great pieces about bitcoin". Huge thanks for your work here. I'm not sure that all bitcoin millionaires would go in your direction though but I could be wrong.

If they just what? Tell us. :)

Rpietila, I think you mean "if they just put their minds to it"

$1.4/mBTC (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=232802.msg2522122#msg2522122).

to DA moon

I think the "average joe" will hesitate to invest at a price of >1000 $ / BTC... on a psychological level
lower prices should really increase investment.

a change to mBTC as proposed by many users already would be a nice solution for this.
otherwise many (uninformed) newcomers will simply buy 40 litecoins instead of a single bitcoin :(

I also think that since litecoins are a ridiculous noninnovation, BTC people should really stop being so smug and move on to mBTC.

It is a shame to be beaten by ltc!

mBTC is definitely in the future.
But I also think mLTC is.

I think LTC is controlled by single wealthy entity. He was able to collect/create large amount of LTC (creating currency, using GPU mining), and now he can pump and only he can dump :-) (he is owner of majority of LTC ... smart ass :-) ). 

Satoshi has quite a big stash too. I guess that sooner or later we will end up knowing about him.

I have an immense respect for your analysis but I'd strongly urge you to think through the potential implications of the differences between the two.  I think you might be missing a trick. ;)

You can dump giant amounts of litecoins for bitcoins, but dumping giant amounts of bitcoins for fiat is a tough trick to pull.

Whats the max amount of BTC per day you can sell for usd on coinbase right now?

limit is 50.