Bitcoin Forum

There is a lot of fishy stuff about this launch. It came out 75 minutes later than expected and its possible that others were mining on the new block chain before it was posted to the forum. It also came with missing DLLs files
for the Windows install and it didn't run in server mode by default meaning that many solo miners may have lost a lot of blocks. Of course there was a lot of rush to mine this new block chain but many people not realising they required to server switch and still seeing zero balance took to the mining pools despite the very low difficulty. The mining pools really made the situation much worse as all the hashing power was now centralized mainly at BTCguild.

Anyone with a direct low latency connection to BTCGuild would have easily mined a lot blocks and causing other miners blocks to be rejected or marked as stales. Many miners big and small alike found that they efforts to mine this new blockchain were futile. I call for a royal commission and thorough investigation into the I0Coin fiasco. We need to look at the block chain data and see compare time stamps. We also need to investigate the many lost blocks and coins and enumerate exactly who most of the winning blocks went to.

The pools unfortunately have to much power and are defeating the purpose of p2p currency.

Let me guess: You lost money again!  ;D

You should quit trying to be a speculator because it seems you are not cut out for it lol

Stop whining! Cry baby!  ::)

 I have good reason to believe I have and I believe many others have as well. Let them speak and i'm sure you'll see i'm not the only one.

The i0coin launch was a fiasco!

When Deepbit gets >51%, the exact same thing can happen to bitcoin. People who get blocks solo will get killed eventually by the pool. Solution: STOP USING POOLS.

You can see this isn't true in the block chain


lack of knowledge != SCAM

With the difficulty starting at 1, and the amount of attention this fork garnered, is what caused the start to be so chaotic, but you should have known this....

I know, I know everyone thought they would fire up their solo miners and mine a quick 500,000 i0coins and then by Saturday they would be rich....please

You won't see me complaining I lost money on I0coin or Ixcoin.

You also won't see me complaining if it takes off and some dudes made money and i haven't.

If you can't afford to lose money, don't invest. Business 101...


I think many times that pooled mining should be forbidden and each IP should also have it's hash power limited to something like 5 Mhash/s or some other reasonable number, to stop this attacks from happening and to give everybody a fair chance on mining.

I know Satoshi didn't like when people started GPU mining, so he would like even less the power of the pools.
It's a terrible waste of electricity to say the least.

So those that were mining solo without the server mode switch would have lost any blocks they mined?


Is there currently a block explorer for people to examine  when mining began compared to when the first link was posted on the forum?

Yes I may be a "cry baby" and a "bad loser" but I think the credibility of p2p currency was twisted for financial gain here. A lot of people have lost faith not just in spin off projects but in bitcoin itself.  I urge people that feel they may have been cheated here to speak up and let their voice be heard. Do not suffer in silence. Let us know how you feel and tell us your story and post your observations.

A full investigation is warranted here and the members of the community have every right to bring this into the open.

Do you want the King to investigate this?  What the heck do you mean royal commission?

(sigh) Okay, that is not what I meant. I said that sarcastically, since I use a pool myself, but to remind people you can't have both an apple and an orange (that's not how the saying goes, but whatever).

In this case "Royal Commissions are called to look into matters of great importance and usually controversy. These can be matters such as government structure, the treatment of minorities, events of considerable public concern or economic questions."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission

So what would be the solution? No preannouncement and no premined blocks?  ;D So that would be a blockchain with a small group of early adopters...

This is interesting, I was under the impression that anybody who intend to do solo mining should know they need to set the client into server mode manually?



I don't think there was any doubt what was going to happen. i0coin is only relatively more moral than ixcoin only because of the transparency and the fact the founder bothered to try something different which serves as good test data. But both are just going to attract people who are hoping to gain financially from being an "early adopter".

If anything, this experience should highlight how an established crypto-currency with high difficulty and a sufficiently diverse hashing population is more reliable and stable than a largely similar fork. Hopefully this will bring an end to pointless forks and anybody coming up with a new one will take note of the lessons here. So it is a good thing IMO if people lost faith in spin off forks, and will therefore think more carefully before doing so.

the i0coin launch may be had been poorly planned but I wouldn't call it a scam just because of that. Nothing that happen wasn't technically unexpected.

Disclaimer: I don't hold thousands of i0coins :D

Exactly. If your going to solo mine you should probably know how to do it.

The fact that there was a major tier 1 pool set PRIOR to the official launch should have told you something. You weren't going to compete with the pool on even ground, it's just technically wasn't feasible.


I'm at a loss on this one.....I mean really......

This is not true, a lot of solo mines made a lot of coins. The pool can't operate at 100% at these low difficulties, probably it got like 99% or even more duplicate share submissions during the first thousand blocks. So all these pool miners capacity was wasted, they should have tried there luck with solo mining.

I don't mind other people go to I0Coin since then the Bitcoin difficulty drop and gets me more Bitcoins in the same timeframe.
Thanks I0Coin miners, for dropping out on Bitcoin!

No, if they ran 'i0coind' then it uses server mode automatically. If they ran 'i0coin' with the GUI then they'd need '-server'. Without it their miner would not be able to connect and would give an error. You don't see mined blocks immediately because they take 120 confirmations to mature. Then they are reflected in the balance. They can also be 'orphaned' in which case they are lost. This is very common at the early difficulty levels when there is massive hashing power on the network.

Hi

I represent the royal commission and I have blueblood to prove it.

Every i0coin miner is hereby instructed to transfer 10% of their i0coins mined during the period of difficulty 1 up to difficulty 1024 so that we can investigate each mined coin for legitimacy.

Please make your deposit to the following address: jLAkT7rdohnvzh6WviEJofty18igDYztJp

Your co-operation in this serious matter is appreciated.

Sincerely
The LOL police

Well from reading the "I0coin - HOW MANY BLOCKS U GOT?" thread it does look like a couple of big players got over 90% of the blocks. Didn't it seem a little strange that blocks were going so fast yet everyone was getting stales? The excuse was that that everyone was getting stales because blocks were going so fast. So if blocks we're going so fast who was getting all the blocks and leaving everyone with the stales?

 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=37608.0

http://devcoinblockexplorer.dyndns.info/chain/I0coin

That is just they way the bitcoin make files are set up, and what they build right now.  Part of the issue of releasing a zero day mining block is you can't then do complete pretesting.

However, if nothing else,  this has been a good demonstration of the badness of pools.  In this case the pool operator launched a 51% attack, and even put about 'when you leave the i0coin ponzi scheme' .  Seems a bit anti-social of them to do this to a competing blockchain,  especially since they do not even believe in them.   I know I for one will recommend people not to use this pool.

Thank you. We will try to work out from this if someone began hashing prior to the link being announced on the forums.

You can't mine solo without a server running. So you can't mine any block in that case, so how could you lose blocks you could not have mined?  I did see a link to a blockexplorer posted somewhere, did not save it though.

I think it shows that the way ixcoin launched , with coins in reserve for bounties and infrastructure may not have been as bad as people thought after all.

This was something I wondered about.  Any links to anything I can read on this.  It almost seems to me he left a bit after gpu mining and pools started to really kick in?   Did he ever state why he was leaving?

First thing, the ones not getting stales won't be complaining.

If you look at the btcguild block stats, practically the first few thousand blocks went to 1 miner (different ones but 1 miner per block). It's just a matter whose block made it to the server before the rest, a network latency race.

If you're right next to the server, connectivity wise, say with a 10ms ping, you'll have a 20ms headstart over everybody else. For somebody on the other side of the Pacific with say 200ms ping, he's going to get the work piece 190ms later and even if he got lucky and found the winning share on the first hash, that's another 190ms window for the guy next to the server to grab the block.

Now since the pool owner is likely going to be running miners ON the same physical network as the server, those miners probably going to win that race most of the time.

I can't think of anything that is unknown here, or even that was unpredicted.

The only reason ixcoin didn't suffer from the same problem is because it wasn't announced in advance, and secondly the experience caused certain actions to be taken in anticipation for i0coin.

If i0coin had gone first, we wouldn't likely see a major pool readying up to unleash more than 400GH/s worth of hashrate onto it at diff 1. So the crazy block grab wouldn't had been this crazy :D

Add to that the fact that the owner/creator of i0coin didn't personally mine out the first few difficulties himself

Um, no, since stales are work on the old block, it seems that is exactly the effect you would expect when the block are going quickly.  Also since the faster nodes are working on their longer block chain faster already, it all again makes sense it played out as it did.

Right, so are you agreeing or disagreeing with the quoted statement somehow?  Or did you just quote it and add other thoughts?

I don't think anyone anticipated this kind of leap to it personally...

Digbtc i0 pool = 174 GH/s
i0Guild = 444 GH/s
Coinotron 45 GH/s
Bitparking 37 GH/s

i think the target was around 50 GH/s ...

 In fact i0coin rode on ixcoin's coatails here, much like ixcoin is riding on bitcoin's.  It would not have gotten so far along if people had not just been through this exercise  with ixcoin.

I don't think he made a difference to the difficulty either. I remember when I saw it late and gave it a try for the fun of it, it was only at difficulty 2 or 4? Keep in mind the difficulty doesn't go up if he doesn't have the hash power to generate more than 1 block per 10 minutes on the average.

Since he took about 2 months to generate about 580K coins, we're looking at around 6042 blocks over almost 1500 hours, or just over 4 blocks an hour. At that rate, difficulty won't go up. So if 0.5TH/s jumped onto ixcoin at the start, we would had seen the same thing.

Fortunately for ixcoin, there was supposedly only 100~200+ GH/s for several hours to drive up the difficulty without causing too much problem.

This also reminds me of another factor, i0coin is targeting 5 minutes per block, so the block generation speed effectively doubles for the same hash power.

Which is what I believe happened. The largest proportion of blocks went to miners on the same physical network as the server. Those of us in other continents didn't even get a look in. By the time we submitted our work it was stale.

Agreeing somewhat on the first part but not on the second. i.e. I think having 580K worth of coins in reserve is not really reasonable, but not pre-announcing the launch was probably a good idea.

It also depends on some sheer dumb luck I think? I've got more than 200ms to the io.btcguild server and less hashrate pointed at it than you did... but based on what you had posted, I think I got a few times more i0coins than you before the stales started going down from the new difficulties :D

Fair enough.   I do think that without the bounties, the services made for ixcoin and also  i0coin would not have been made so quickly though.  

It will be interesting to see how much interest either of these chains has in  another month or two.

yes I got about 9 coins from btc guild.. it didn't seem right at all which is why I changed to http://i0.digbtc.net/
but their page seems down now for some reason

Ok, good.  So we now know the approximate starting difficulty, how to create a genesis block, how to build Linux executable, etc..

So when is the real start date?     (Oh yeah, and how to convert from GMT.)

The bounties do help of course. The problem, which many of us pointed out, was the sheer amount. The pre-existing coins will have an effect on the valuation of the forked coin. So having 5800 would had probably been as good as 580K simply because each would be valued more anyway. If I'm not wrong, due to this i0coin is trading for twice or thrice the ixcoin value?

Still up for me. When did you switch to i0.digbtc.net? If 9 coins were all you got from BTCG, then I would assume the rest of your 81 coins at the time you posted about having 90 coints, were all from i0digbtc?

I think that maybe if you had stuck to btcg, you would had came out ahead. I had pretty much zero coin for the first few difficulties but that was pretty much expected. Once it took more than 2~3 shares per block, my coin rate went up tremendously. Due to the sheer amount of hashing power BTCG have, it would also had been able to void/orphan blocks from other pools as well simply by racing ahead with a longer blockchain.

Yeah.   Don't know if that is why, or just because it is now the newest chain, so hence where the actions is.   At this point I am waiting a month or two then checking where the prices are before I draw any conclusions which is preferred by people.

Yeah I forgot the exact time. I actually barely slept at all last night but I had a PC repair job this morning. Came back from that and spent most of the day sleeping while my miners purred in the background.

http://i0.digbtc.net/ for me seems to bring up a blank page. http://www.digbtc.net/ does seem to take a long time to respond but did come up eventually.

io.digbtc.net comes up almost instantly for me, despite close to 300ms ping. On the other hand www.digbtc.net takes a while to respond despite the server pinging under 200ms. :D

You might want to traceroute the pools and see which is actually better for you. It might be how your ISP routes to the pool that's causing your mining efficiency to drop even further.

We should have known it was a scam from the get go when it was advertised as an "Ixcoin fork".  I mean I'm not sure how much clearer it could have been.

Yeah, thats why i forked the bitcoin client and worked from that code directly.

what happened to the exchange

Yeah it appears that the i0coin exchange is down as well as the i0pool. DoubleC??

Xephan: Yeah I just withdrew ~140 from i0.digbtc.
I wanted to sell them before I went to bed though as I expected a crash.

I do remember there was something about a DDoS attempt in i0 guild at the time.

1) wait until someone launches new p2p currency
2) have pool ready
3) get everyone to mine new p2p currency on your pool
3) use your less than 1 ms latency to mine the shit out of new p2p currency while your pool ensures that you control the blockchain
4) if people complain about only stales while your getting all the blocks blame it on the low difficulty
5) dump coins on exchange to get all the investors bitcoins
6) profit

As a side node I was going to transfer money to mtgox to buy bitcoins to buy i0coins. Very glad I didn't now. My last transfer of $800 AUD is nearly entirely down the toilet thanks this rubbish mostly lost on IXcoin but my hashing power was  wasted on i0 coin.
I'm sure the guys that hold most of the i0 coins will relieve the other  suckers investors of their bitcoins soon.

This is not i0coins's fault and does not make it a scam.

It's also flat out wrong.
Maybe next time try using a miner that can handle > 1 longpoll/second and doesn't need half a eternity from finding a H==0 to submitting a share.
I did that, got >700 of the early blocks with 6Ghps and a 180ms ping to io.btcguild.

The value of these coins is so close to zero, it's really not worth fighting over. If you're bummed you didn't get as many as you expect, wait until an exchange opens, spend $1,000, and buy a buttload of 'em.

When the Ixcoin exchange opened, someone bought 230,000 coins for around $1,100.

Well well..what have we here LOL...

So ioucoins has its own scam thread now? Interesting. But imo, for anyone that was ready to mine iocoin at its release, it's in no way surprising...it was only a matter of time. Hell, I could have started this thread myself, but I figured I'd let things take their natural course. But lol,..aint karma a bitch?

As I stated in another thread -

"In my opinion the whole thing was dodgy from the very beginning - imo right from the outset no-one could mine. The creators of this scam uploaded software that simply didnt exist on release and then they re-released it and the files were there but the software didnt work. Then they had to release it again. Once it did work an hour or more later (at least to some degree for some people from what I have read), IO Guild put a message up on their website along the lines of 'when you're finished with this ponzi scheme come mine Bitcoins at BT Guild' (I'm not sure how much more obvious you can make it than that) and then this was promptly taken down when some of the people mining ioucoins took offence to it. Seriously...the whole thing stinks. Course there's people on the exchange now trying to flog off their coins to anyone that will buy.."

haha..

Oh, it's still very far from reaching the ammount of pages your dear "Ixcoin is a SCAM" thread has... and probably never will reach it.

Disclaimer: My above statement doesn't mean that I0coin is less of a scam than Ixcoin is.

Thanks. You really are a simpleton arent you?  ;D

So now we're even too lazy to come up with original FUD and resort to copypasta.

Sorry bud - it gets kinda 'busy' round here lol....

Not as much as you are, and not as much as scammers wish i was...

Less of a scam than ixcoin? Obviously, simply for the reason of having no anonymous founder sitting on 500k coins.
Not a scam? Well... not a *intentional* scam. Imo the whole thing will end up as a pyramid scheme with "investors" holding a bunch of worthless coins simply because it's a alternate blockchain bringing nothing of real value to the table.
So... why did I mine it? Well... why not? I also threw > 10Ghps at testnet for a day just for fun.

I was just trying to point out to oldminer that I'm in no way deffending I0coin. Nothing more.
He has a background of misunderstanding what people say and jump on it to defend Ixcoin and attack I0coin(just look at his signature) ::)

Hi Art,

I used poclbm.

Did you use a custom modified miner or a freely available one?

Perhaps the H==0 is done by custom asics?

http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/logs/2011/01/15/10

crap no wonder I'm one of life's losers lmao

I just put a buy order in for ioucoin:

0.00001511   66000.00000000

Sorry..its all its worth...LOL

I0coin: Last Price:   0.00161731
Ixcoin: Last Price:   0.00145000    

Page me with this in 2 weeks from now...

Although those few with the big rigs and shortest latency did get WAY more coins than anyone else, software made a difference for getting them in the first few hours also.

I've mentioned a few times that I use cgminer.
I got seven 1 share blocks in the first 33 minutes (my first was around 90 seconds from the start) with a 710Mh/s rig
Also my latency is just over 200ms
Rig network: PowerLine to Gigabit router (amber: 50-80Mbit), then Gigabit to linux router, then 100Mbit to switch then 100Mbit to ADSL router then 800Kbit to the internet ...)
So software choice clearly makes a difference too.

P.S. can everyone stop feeding the 'troll' and he will hopefully go away :)
(I'm not referring to anyone in this post of course)

it will just be

I0coin: Last Price:   0.00461731
Ixcoin: Last Price:   0.00045000


why cant you seem to understand that the only reason why i0coin exists isnt to make your life miserable, but do to concerns with how you released ixcoin. Those concerns arent going to magically disappear because you have a more complete website, or because you attack i0coins every change you get. If you want your project to succeed you are going to have to alleviate some of those concerns and quit pretending the community is crazy for having them or that they dont exist at all.. or that they are some sort of joke.

You're wrong, putting in his sig will surely make I0coin collapse ;D

Shouldn't I0coins be 2x the price of Ixcoins since there's only half of them per block?  I don't gets it! :(

Supply is only half of what determines price.

Ask DoubleC to make a Ixcoin to I0coin exchange and we'll see some fireworks! :D

That doesn't follow. Human nature dictates prices, not generation rate.

Though to be fair, currently i0coins are almost exactly double the price of ixcoins.

i0: buy   0.00224000   
ix: buy   0.00116000

amusing.


doublec makes some nice profit off transaction fees, I wonder if he would make more or less off a direct trade. Interesting...

It boils down to this...

"Damnit. Tons of people made money off of gold before I was even born. That's not fair. But that's OK. I've discovered a new precious metal. It's brown, and it smells funny, and it comes out of my ass!"

Rewrite for the internet, and you get ixcoins. :)

lol u got brown stink metal that comes out your ass??

It's not metal any more than ixcoins is a legitimate currency started by someone with honest intentions. :)

Welcome to the fun world of software releasing! It's why I don't release much software. This one would be even worse than average - in order to launch with a genesis block of verifiable timing they would have had to modify and compile the viewer immediately before launching, and the Bitcoin build process is really gnarly and non-automated.

Bitcoin has never run in server mode by default - I think the official client may even require -server if you run the GUIless bitcoind program. Anyone that didn't know this probably shouldn't have been mining solo anyway. At the block rates IXcoin and I0coin reached when they first launched, you apparently pretty much had to have long-polling support in order to get any non-stale blocks, which meant setting up pushpoold and blkmond. That's a lot harder than remembering to pass the -server flag and has lots of potential for breakage.

Well that was easy.  In that case: Given the congruous nature of these two alt block chains, just as Ixcoins did last weekend, shouldn't I0coins hit .01XXXX very soon?

*crosses fingers*

booo for scammers !!! thumbs down

0.2% is not a large fee. The i0coin exchange made 3 bitcoins since opening in fees. I'm not sure that qualifies as 'nice profit'.

I think 0.2% is a very fair fee.
You need to implement some kind of Tobin Tax.
Otherwise someone with a large number of coin will sell small amounts to themselves raising the market price and creating a false demand for the coins before unloading their stash to unsuspecting buyers.

I never said that your fees were unfair or overlarge or anything. I merely said that exchanges make money of the transaction fees running through them, and that can create a disincentive to create a direct trade (ixc -> btc -> i0c is an extra double over ixc -> i0c), I never said I blamed your nor that you deserve more or less.
No need to get defensive though, no one is blaming you, I'm sure we're all thankful for your quick creation of usable exchanges.

Thank you. I'll stop trolling now. At least for today anyway. I'm no richer but I'm a little wiser and I have enough answers now. I'm now running CGminer. Thank you.

As I said, I wasn't referring to anyone in my post (and that includes you) ...
it's that other person that a few people can't ignore and must continually post about and create threads about.
If everyone ignored him he might go away, grow older and die :)

Who Oldminer?  :D

You mean Dipshitminer. Face it, the real reason we know not to touch ixcoins is that even if we believe the creator meant his hundreds of thousands of initially-mined-coins to be a bounty for improvement...

By not modifying the code to simply assume the fee for block 1 was 500,000 coins, he proved he doesn't have nearly enough of an understanding of how the system works to be able to make a dependable crypto currency. If he can't even make 500,000 coins in one block rather than mining for months, he does not have any of the knowledge or experience to "improve" bitcoin.

Not only was it just a copy, its "goals" were fulfilled in the stupidest possible way... because the great thing about open-source is you can modify the code to do things different...

Assuming you know the first thing about what you're doing. Ixcoins clearly isn't an example of knowing what you're doing...

Stumbled over this - out of curiosity, a week later . . . .

I0coin: Last Price:   0.00056108
IXcoin: Last Price:   0.00119994

Not like anyone is invested in i0coins. The point is that ixcoins are worthless and Thomas Nasakioto and Oldminer are scammers wanting people to invest into their bullshit currency.

Yea and not only that but it also appears ioucoin is actually a dead duck LOL https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=36425.msg479132#new

Didn't last long..but then, I did say it had no future from the outset.  

R.I.P. iocoin

EDIT: Actually I just had a thought. IOcoin was created as a joke and I couldnt help but notice the analogy ie: its like a new joke thats initially funny. The joke is passed around and its still funny. But after a while the joke gets tired, and stale, and eventually no-one laughs at it anymore. Then the joke dies and no-one tells it anymore. And eventually the joke is completely forgotten!  ;D

Interestingly enough so is ixcoin's future.

So your support for ixcoins is fail. LOL

Really? LOL...just make sure that on 1st September you mine then SELL quickly (like you usually do Mr. 'Pump 'n Dump') and I will be waiting with my BTC in hand...  ;)

Keep waiting man. I'm never gonna mine dixcoins especially if all it is is a copy cat release.

Just keep waiting with your btc in hand.

lol

LOL

Btw, I made a post over at ixcoin forums about your precious iocoin. Thought you might like an entertaining read...  ;)

https://ixcoin.org/forum/index.php?topic=79.0

lol my precious? Like Lord of the Rings?

I don't even own any i0coins. lol

Ah wait, but you raved about how much better it was than ixcoins. Yet here we are less than 2 weeks later and its in the bin?

So are ixcoins. Your point?

LOL...you play the part well. I'll give you that.  ;)

Um ok?

Even how far it goes it is lost or not it doesn't matter because in this form their are situations that we cannot control. To earn is the goal but to lost is a challenge.

Quiting dear is not a good solutions it is for weak people. For me facing the challenges is a great strategy for a better improvement.