Bitcoin Forum

 i think this is a kinda new bitcoin site and method.

 its new to me, anway :)

 so, it seems really good if not great !

 but how can we be sure its safe ??

 can several people verify its entirely safe as they have "also"

 tired and have proven it does NOT create issues ??

 OR, if it "does" create issues, what are they ??,

 can u list & describe the issues ??

 and does it, OR can it, conflict and hinder

  other java based apps., etc. ?

 i'm very anxious to get involved to apply it, but want to be

 more assured before i move forward.

 so, thanks.  :)

My brief experience so far with bitminter is awesome.  The software is awesome and easy to use.  I remotely set it up for a friend of mine and he is able to use it and he can't do much on a pc.  So far no complaints.

People who compile open-source code into things and proceed to not release the source are inherently shady.

I wouldn't touch it with a stick. That said, there are plenty of people who would/do.

Doesn't have instant payouts yet... That's a minus...

What are you talking about?

There are 14 000 lines of code in BitMinter (miner, pool backend and web frontend), all written by myself. There is nothing open-source compiled into these programs.

...that all depend 100% on an open source p2p network that were not written or designed by you. Suck it, leech.

Yes, I use that, and GNU/Linux operating system and libraries, and many other open source tools.


I'm sorry you feel that way about it.

So far I've only been giving away free money (paying 5% extra). In the future I will probably make it possible to donate for those who wish. Still, anyone who feels I am leeching is certainly free to set donation to 0%. And if using my software and rented server for free isn't good enough, there are many other pools to choose from.

What makes you trustworthy enough to run your proprietary software on my machine?

I use it and love the design and functionality. Works very well !  :D

@DrHaribo can you implement a function to throttle down the graphic card ?. My iMacs 6970m gets too hot and there is no way to clock the card down  :-[ :'(

Hey Randy, please give me the address of your opensource miner !

You should look into SolidCoin - if running some jackass's proprietary and potentially malicious software that is too good to be true is up your alley.

Why do you call this guy a jackass ? Just because his miner is closed source ? I think he spent quite some time and money to setup his pool and miner ?!

I tried several pools and miners and imo there is nothing wrong with bitminter.

Why didn't he spend all that time and money to improve existing open source architechture and performance, choosing instead to reinvent the wheel? Why is he paying out 5% out of pocket for people to use his software after investing all this time and money? Why hasn't he spent more time developing rapport with the community?

You don't think that situation is rife with potential for dishonesty?

Because he sees his miner app as a competitive advantage over other pools. Pools are businesses.

FWIW, I think bitminter is awesome. ITs both very fast and easy to use. I would prefer it was open, but no one forces it upon you.
If you dont like it, or dont trust it, dont use it. You can use any opensource client you want, either with bitminter or any other pool.

Well i don't know about his reasons to keep it closed source. All i can say is that it's working well and without problems so far. From my point of view it is safe to use.

To judge safety, consider incentive. There is like 30? or so people running bitminter? Whats to be gained from running malware on 30 machines, compared to the effort involved setting up the pool and miner app and the potential benefits from a big pool. It would make no sense whatsoever for DrHaribo to risk his business and everything he invested in it, by spreading malware. In so far it would even be possible to make effective malware with Java webstart.

Since i only mine at 4 Mh/s i'm not really in for the money  :D ;D more like to keep things running...

It seems to me that the best way to handle this would be to submit your code to one or more trusted members here along with a NDA to prevent them from using any part of it anywhere else if you're worried about that hearing some of other programers in the forum give it a clean bill of health would stifle any yelling about malicious code.

Except it wouldnt, as no one could guarantee the code he submits is the same as the app we run. Moreover, since its javawebstart, it autoupdates, so what is safe today, could be different tomorrow. The only way to be 100% sure is by reviewing and compiling the source code yourself, assuming you have the ability to audit the code.

That said, Ive been googling a bit, and from what I can tell its basically impossible to spread malware through java webstart. Or at least as hard as spreading malicious code through a website exploiting whatever zero day browser vulnerability, and I havent seen anyone make the claim its dangerous to visit the website from any other pool operator as it could be used to spread malware.

Added to my TODO list. :)


That's for you to decide. Obviously you decided against it, and that's alright.

The miner is just a benefit I offer you for free if you mine in my pool. You don't have to use it.

People mine with other miners at the BitMinter pool too. You can see which miners people use here: https://bitminter.com/miners (https://bitminter.com/miners)

That's a nice stats page!

Everything seems clean and well-done. I (and I am not alone) am just super sketched-out by proprietary bitcoin software. And paying out of pocket for people to use it seems...unprofitable.

Its obviously an investment in startup pool.
If he can achieve a pool that only 10% as big as beepbit, that ought to pay itself back handsomely through the fees. But you wont get many miners joining a new and small pool with large uncertainty,  if you dont give incentives. A nice miner only gets you so far.

Ha, a "scammer" that accepts wishes from the people his stealing from... Crap, just kidding :D . I respect your work DrHaribo !

@Randy: Nothing against being careful, like others wrote: take it or leave it. No need for hate.

It's called the long con...get enough rubes together and fleece them all at once after they trust you. Not sure how long you've been around the bitcoin community, but this wouldn't be the first example of it.

The software is perfectly capable of very malicious things. Does it do them? No one knows because it's not open source or audited in any way.

This isn't about me...this is a thread asking if bitminter is safe...I am merely pointing out the many things that make it unsafe. To top it off, there is DrHaribo, who is making proprietary software (to turn himself a profit) that rides on the backs of people participating in a p2p network in good faith. Why not further bitcoin, instead of furthering DrHaribo's pocketbook? The two goals are not exclusive, and his talent could be better applied to the spirit of the project, rather than some profit-whoring offshoot that no one actually needs.

Care to show me an example of webstart java malware and what it can do? Since it cant access my filesystem, I really wonder what it could do that a website could not.


Gee, I thought this was an alternative currency, trying to build an economy based on free market principles, not a non profit neocommunist experiment. Shame on anyone trying to make a profit on bitcoins! Whats next, you gonna start badmouthing BTC trade?

BTW, I know what DrHaribo is working on, and it has the potential to do more to advance bitcoin as a currency than anything I recently read on this forum. That his motive is profit is fine by me. Its the same motive driving mt gox and everyone else.

Oh, and one more thing. Making miners more efficient does NOTHING for bitcoin. Nothing, nada, niente. Think about it. If someone releases an opensource miner that doubles our hashrate, what changes?

Yes, "even" a Java program can be malicious. And pool operators can steal your money. Anyone who handles your money can. You should probably not mine in my pool if you think I am not trustworthy.


I don't understand this. I think the people who created bitcoin want it to be used for profit. And since when is it wrong to make a little money from hard work? (If I ever do)

Do you also think deepbit is making money riding on "the backs of people participating in a p2p network in good faith"? I don't. They offer a service to their users, and I congratulate them on creating a successful business.

Or is only what I do wrong, because I offer an alternative miner?


I admit it, it's true. At one point in the future I would be happy if I was able to "whore" out a small profit from all this work.

The way BitMinter is different from other pools and miners is that it makes bitcoin mining easy. Easy enough for the average Joe - you don't even have to be a programmer to use it. :o  Yes, this is something that some people actually need. And this might get some more (non-technical) people into using bitcoins.

In a few days I'm being interviewed by a business newspaper, about BitMinter and bitcoins in general. I doubt the businessmen who read it are going to start mining in my pool. But it might help spread the word about bitcoins and create some interest.

There are also some other things planned, like P4man said.

I think I am already doing something to further bitcoin. I'm doing less well with the profit-whoring, but maybe someday.

What do you see as the spirit of the project? And do you have any suggestions as to how I may better further bitcoin?

Transparency.


Transparency.


Seriously, though...I have no problem with you or anyone else making a buck off of a pool, or bitcoin in general, but there is a difference between doing your own thing off in the corner vs. playing with the rest of the class. I ran yesterday with my donations set to 100% on arsbitcoin, cause this price slump is hurting all the pool ops and they are offering a valuable service. I also donate to the software developers whose crap I use. I even donate for some stuff I don't use but I like the idea of. Since this price slump, I have tried to make purchases from every reputable vendor I could. I don't think I am the only one doing it. There are a lot of bright minds intent on making this work.

You could do exactly the same as you are doing now, but open source and allowing it to be used anywhere. You would certainly silence the likes of me, and I don't think it would affect the appeal or potential profitability of the pool. I think a simple mining app is very much needed, and I applaud you for developing one. Now let everyone play. It would be beneficial for the whole community, and would win you a bunch of rep. In the long run, you would still make a profit, and in my mind, you would make it even faster after dropping some sweet software on our heads and gradually swaying us all over to your pool.

I initially replied to this thread half-trolling because I don't like the idea of closed source miners, as there is an huge and obvious risk involved with them. I haven't used the program, so I cannot comment on that, but your site looks very clean and professional compared to many of the larger pools out there and you seem like a genuinely nice guy. I am not trying to hate, I am just saying what I am thinking, and I bet I'm not the only one.

I wish you luck with your interview. Be sure to link it in the Bitcoin Press thread if there is an online version!

That is a good idea, I think. More than anything bitcoin needs merchants. What we can all do to make it work is spend some coins.


Yes, you may be right about this. Building up the pool is slow going, so you can be sure I am considering making some changes going forward.


Thanks, I appreciate it.


Thank you. I will do that, although it will be in norwegian so I suppose it will only be interesting to scandinavians. ;)

Hey hey...you guys are big enough to get on the pident list:

http://pident.artefact2.com/

Hehe.. Nice of them to make the piechart big enough that we are visible. ;)

Regarding the allegations of potential cheating with the reported MH, I decided to a little (admittedly, limited and somewhat flawed) test now that I have 2 5850s. One machine is running diablo (on ubuntu) the other is running bitminter (on windows). Both clocked at 775/300, similar optimal settings, same 2.5 version of the SDK. I started them simultaneously let them run for a few hours.

Bitminer and diablo both report very similar MH/s, around 310 (taking the screenshot makes it drop). Diablo is a bit more consistent, bitminter, definitely peaks higher, but if anything might average a bit lower in what it reports, hard to say. Both systems have had zero rejected shares in this run. Anyway, this is what the pool reports:

https://i.imgur.com/xi5hg.png

bit=bitminter
dia=diablo

Perhaps its too small a dataset to be conclusive, but from the very start bitminter has produced noticeably more shares than diablo. If Dr Haribo is cheating, it seems he is paying for it :).

Do it for a couple days at least and present a real dataset. Due to the way hashrates are calculated by pools, the 35 share difference could merely be probability, or it could be a temperature difference between the two cards, which would affect the speed and efficiency. Which actual card is on top? the one running diablo, or bitminter?

No temperature issue, both cards are below 55C. The ubuntu/diablo machine does have a pathetic CPU by comparison (single core Pentium 4 vs Core2 quad) but I dont think that makes any difference.

The bitminter one is the one that produced more hashes. You must either compare the live apps (so 301 vs 255) or the ones shows on the website from a few minutes earlier (288 vs 253)

Ill do a longer sample later, but Im using my windows machine for other things it doesnt mine 24/7 like the ubuntu rig. When I do it, Ill reverse it. Ill run bitminter on the ubuntu/pentium 4 machine and diablo on the windows/C2Q.

Aha...I just assumed both cards were in the same rig. I am curious to see the results of your experiment. That is a ridiculous performance increase.

started a new run. Created 2 new workers, booted both machine in to identical ubuntu installs this time, so same drivers, same sdk same everything. Im running bitminter on the old P4 now, and diablo on the Core2q. Ill post results tomorrow if neither machine crashes (the c2q is a rebuild thats not quite done yet. Like the CPU fan is not even attached its merely balancing on the CPU lol. And no, its not overheating at all, dont worry).

update: before I go to bed, this is what I have after 30 minutes or so:

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8916/selection004e.png

Even with a pentium 4 bitminter seems to be pulling way ahead. Yes, its way too early, but still... color me surprised. I expected them to be close.  So am I doing something wrong with the diablo settings? Im using this:

./DiabloMiner-Linux.sh --url http://P4man_diablocore2:xxx@mint.bitminter.com:8332 -v 2 -w 128

Ive experimented with 196 and 256 but the results were inconclusive. So I kept it at 128, same as Im using with bitminter.

This is after a full night:
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1930/selection005v.png

Results are much closer now, and much more believable, though bitminter is still faster by a non trivial amount.
cpu speed is a non issue clearly, but we could have guessed that.

I also notice diablo timing out a few times contacting the pool. 6x in the past 10 hours. Not sure if that is really an issue here, as a few seconds later it always gets through, but  bitminter  (machine is on the same network) never timed out once.

lastly, I have 1 hardware error and 4 rejects on diablo, and zero of either on the bitminter machine, but that may not be related to the software, Im not sure.

Last update, the Core2 machine has to be taken offline:

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8029/selection006.png

To be clear, you have to look at the proofs of work. The MH/s is a short term average (not sure, 5 minutes or so) and fluctuates wildly.
Seems like these apps are really close, but bitminter does have an edge on my 5850s. I believe bitminter has a bigger edge on 69x0's, but I cant test that. Anyone else feel free.