Bitcoin Forum

In the news recently is the story of millions of shoppers having their credit card information stolen when they shopped at Target. The full scope of the information theft is not yet known. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/20/us-target-breach-idUSBRE9BH1GX20131220 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/20/us-target-breach-idUSBRE9BH1GX20131220)

The underlying problem faced by shoppers is that when they make a purchase they must give information to the seller: their name, card number, expiration date, etc. Any dishonest person who collects this information is then empowered to make purchases onto their account, since making a purchase just requires the name, card number, expiration date, etc., which were all handed over willingly.

Bitcoin solves this problem through the use of private signatures. To send bitcoins, the transaction from the public address is digitally signed using the private key. This signature is done using an algorithm that allows anybody to verify from the public key that the signature is valid. However, to make additional transactions requires the use of the private key, so merchants (or any other people who see the transaction signature) cannot dishonestly create more transactions.

With bitcoin, you never give anybody the information they need to spend your money like you do every day with credit cards.

True, but somebody could get access to your computer or phone and passwords if you're using public wifi.

Somebody hacking into your computer is completely different from willingly handing over all the information needed to make fraudulent purchases.

It's not really any different than having your card details taken by hackers as in this case.

Even then it's not 40M computers all at once it's only one.

Even then, they don't have your private key (unless it's abc123).

If hackers are able to steal your bitcoins over wifi you obviously suck at bitcoin and need to read up on security before you are inevitably hit.

There are no bitcoin skimmers, there are no waitress copying card/priv key info. There's no name/physical address to the address(account) unless you put it there. If you think bitcoin is easier to steal that credit card info, well, I've got links to plenty of lists of cc #'s for sale all across the internet...

That's why you keep your private keys on an offline computer that never touches the internet.

That's why hardware wallets like Trezor are coming, exactly to fix that problem.

There's also lots of threads all over this site by people who have had their accounts hacked. There's almost always ways to get at your funds no matter how careful you are.

You can do this today without special hardware. I sell consultancy to people that need help.

How could it be possible to steal my wallet if i'm storing it on paper offline? Only way is exploiting the SHA2 algorithm i believe and if it happens whoe btc economy is doomed anyway.

As headpolo says, you will never steal my offline bitcoins. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

There's lots of threads on people being ripped off for USD all over the internet, and I'd bet you 1000BTC that they highly outnumber the successful BTC scams in the world as well. I'd bet credit card fraud alone has a net cost that's a pretty sizable amout of BTC's market cap. And if you add banking fraud period I know for a fact that losess alone are greater than BTC's total market cap.

Goverment wants  currencies to be regulated and tracked etc etc...so no way at all.

Somebody could steal your paper wallet or get to access to your paper wallet when you make it or print it off, or you could lose it.


I know exactly what I'm talking about, and I'm not making an argument for or against which is better and how much goes missing, so no need to get defensive. That argument about scope of theft and fraud is irrelevant any way since BTC is used by a tiny minority.

Shop at Target, become a target

Really? You can decrypt my paper wallet without getting the needed info from me? You even assume my paper wallet is paper, that it ever even touched a printer, or that it ever existed on a computer as anything but RAM? For all you know all I need to access my bitcoins is on the face of a clock in my living room, steal that. I won't loose my paper wallet, because I'm not a tard and planned ahead.

You have no idea what you are talking about, it's blatantly obvious. Even if I had "hot" bitcoins on my PC you would still be hard pressed to ever lift them from me.

I wasn't talking to you, was I? He said paper wallets. Why don't you share your safety secrets and how impenetrable your Bitcoins are so we can all learn how to become a foolproof BTC master like you?

And yes, hard-pressed, but not impossible. Stop being so hotheaded.

Getting back on topic ...

There is a structural weakness to the credit card system. Bitcoin gives an example of one way to fix the problem, but the legacy banking institutions do not even admit a problem exists.

Would it be possible for credit cards to change in such a way as to utilize private key signing? The general public might be wary of the finality involved in using bitcoins, and all the security needed to keep them safe.

My idea: a dongle (keychain sized, or made in the form of a thick credit card?) which can communicate with the POS device wirelessly. The POS sends the transaction information, you click a button on the device and it uses your private key (stored on the device) to sign the info and send it back to the POS. This can be combined with a PIN entered into the POS for two factor authorization. Thus every transaction would be cryptographically signed and there would be no way for people to steal your credit card info.

I have not looked much into the RFID things now used along side more traditional credit cards, do they do anything besides transmit your data in plain text?

I agree. Well, as long as nobody finds your pieces  ;D


Maybe the CC industry will have to adopt some new procedures to compete with Bitcoin. There's all sorts of security features that could be implemented for both BTC and CC to make them safer. A fingerprint scan working alongside a chip and pin may be a good idea.

Very valid point about the positives of bitcoin.  It's also worth pointing out though that debit/credit cards are insured and you almost always get your money back if you were to lose any, if someone gets access to your bitcoin (which is certainly possible) they are gone forever (at least as of right now in the current state of the bitcoin industry).

Basically, everything has its positives and negatives whether it be cash, cards, bitcoin, checks , money orders etc etc.

I do agree though, as the bitcoin industry continues to mature and more startups start providing even better solutions, bitcoin has the potentialy to be a very secure/safe way of making transactions. It already is imo but there's also still a lot of security risks mainly on the user end.

So cool. Hide them in temples across the Earth with traps and puzzles.