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Title: How are trades conducted here? Post by: BitcoinBobbeh on December 27, 2013, 08:51:26 PM Hi there,
I'm new to the forum (obviously lol) and I am wondering how trades are conducted or moderated here. Are there merchants with accounts or is everyone just a regular joe? Do we have an official escrow service? Yours noobily, BTCBobbeh Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: Flashman on December 27, 2013, 09:00:20 PM It's very much buyer beware here, there are many scammers. The trust system may or may not be helpful, some people are abusing that too.
There are some reputable escrow providers, nothing official. Moderation policy is libertarian, i.e. not to get involved unless things REALLY get out of hand or malfeasance is provably obvious. Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: BitcoinBobbeh on December 27, 2013, 09:02:42 PM It's very much buyer beware here, there are many scammers. The trust system may or may not be helpful, some people are abusing that too. There are some reputable escrow providers, nothing official. Moderation policy is libertarian, i.e. not to get involved unless things REALLY get out of hand or malfeasance is provably obvious. Interesting... I'm checking out the trust on profiles now. Is there a way to sort out the most trusted, or do I just have to leapfrog until I find a good dealer? Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: AltCoinMiner on December 27, 2013, 09:06:22 PM Pretty much buyer beware and by viewing the persons rep
Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: DannyHamilton on December 27, 2013, 09:45:58 PM Is there a way to sort out the most trusted, or do I just have to leapfrog until I find a good dealer? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Escrow+whitelist+site%3Abitcointalk.org Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: BitcoinBobbeh on December 27, 2013, 10:06:45 PM Is there a way to sort out the most trusted, or do I just have to leapfrog until I find a good dealer? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Escrow+whitelist+site%3Abitcointalk.org Ah, yes, LMGTFY, the sarcastic internet user's ultimate tool. When I spoke of a way to sort out trusted members, I meant more of a "Click here to see members ranked by trust/ranked by post #/ranked by (insert statistic)" that was innate to the site, not just a randomly updated thread that has been pieced together by users. But that looks like a good place to start looking for active traders. Thank you. Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: tearfereon on December 27, 2013, 10:08:40 PM Use escrow, check his trust records and read his posts. Be cautious to someone with few posts. This should filter most scammers.
Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: DannyHamilton on December 27, 2013, 10:48:46 PM Is there a way to sort out the most trusted, or do I just have to leapfrog until I find a good dealer? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Escrow+whitelist+site%3Abitcointalk.org Ah, yes, LMGTFY, the sarcastic internet user's ultimate tool. When I spoke of a way to sort out trusted members, I meant more of a "Click here to see members ranked by trust/ranked by post #/ranked by (insert statistic)" that was innate to the site, not just a randomly updated thread that has been pieced together by users. But that looks like a good place to start looking for active traders. Thank you. This site doesn't really have anything "official" or guaranteed to provide a reliable list of trustworthy individuals. The operators of the site seem to be aware that any such list would be subject to manipulation and fraud. It is far safer to keep the concept of "caveat emptor" at the forefront of your thoughts whenever attempting to make any form of exchange of anything of value. There are several tools, such as the "trust" pages that allow individuals to provide user generated feedback about each other, and the Escrow Lists that individuals have generated. However, you should absolutely NOT trust either of those tools. They are a source of information that can be weighed by you to help you make your own personal decisions on how much trust you are willing to place in an individual, but either of those tools can be manipulated for purposes of fraud by an individual with such intentions. Some indicators to consider: How many "posts" has an individual made? Someone with very few posts may have recently created an account for the sole purpose of committing fraud. Those interested in "making a quick buck" through fraud will often not be willing to take the time to build up a significant history of helpful posts. However, someone interested in a "long con" might be willing to put forth such an effort with plans to commit a fraud that results in a significant value at a date in the future. How much "activity" does an individual have? Activity measures not only how many posts, but also how much time a user has been active on the site. Again, the fraudster looking for a "quick buck" won't be willing to spend months or years participating in the community, and will therefore have a much lower "activity". As before, someone attempting a "long con" and hoping for a really large payoff at the end might be willing to put in significantly more time. What is the "Trust Rating" of the individual? Note that "trust" is determined by who you choose to trust. You should update your trust list from the default list and add only those individuals that you have decided to trust. The rating you see is not universal for the site, it is specifically based off of the feedback created by individuals whose opinion you have decided to value. If you choose not to create a "trust list" of your own, then you will have a "default" list of people whose opinions the administrator of the site has decided to value. What specifically is said on the "trust page" of the individual? The fact that someone has some negative trust could simply be vindictive punishment from someone who didn't appreciate being outed for a scam they were perpetrating. It could be intimidation from someone who simply didn't agree with an opinion expressed by the individual. It is also possible for an individual to create multiple accounts to give themselves false feedback, or manipulate others into leaving positive feedback. Take a look at specifically what is said, how it is said, and who said it. Use this information to assist you in deciding how much weight to give the feedback in your decision making process. Read through several of the threads that the individual has participated in. From this you can determine if the individual has put forth an effort to maintain a respected reputation within the community. Someone who is looking for a "quick buck" won't have much concern for the reputation associated with their site ID since they don't intend to use it again after they've pulled off their scam. Someone who appears to value their reputation on the site will be more likely to act in a fair and trustworthy manner to protect that reputation. Of course, as indicated already, if the user is engaged in a "long con" the more skilled they are the more trustworthy they will appear and the better their reputation will be. You will be safest (against fraud) if you and the individual you are exchanging with are located in the same legal jurisdiction and you are able to confirm their real life identity prior to any transaction. Even more so if you meet up for a physical exchange in person. Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: akaCash on December 27, 2013, 11:34:33 PM This site doesn't really have anything "official" or guaranteed to provide a reliable list of trustworthy individuals. The operators of the site seem to be aware that any such list would be subject to manipulation and fraud. It is far safer to keep the concept of "caveat emptor" at the forefront of your thoughts whenever attempting to make any form of exchange of anything of value. There are several tools, such as the "trust" pages that allow individuals to provide user generated feedback about each other, and the Escrow Lists that individuals have generated. However, you should absolutely NOT trust either of those tools. They are a source of information that can be weighed by you to help you make your own personal decisions on how much trust you are willing to place in an individual, but either of those tools can be manipulated for purposes of fraud by an individual with such intentions. Some indicators to consider: How many "posts" has an individual made? Someone with very few posts may have recently created an account for the sole purpose of committing fraud. Those interested in "making a quick buck" through fraud will often not be willing to take the time to build up a significant history of helpful posts. However, someone interested in a "long con" might be willing to put forth such an effort with plans to commit a fraud that results in a significant value at a date in the future. How much "activity" does an individual have? Activity measures not only how many posts, but also how much time a user has been active on the site. Again, the fraudster looking for a "quick buck" won't be willing to spend months or years participating in the community, and will therefore have a much lower "activity". As before, someone attempting a "long con" and hoping for a really large payoff at the end might be willing to put in significantly more time. What is the "Trust Rating" of the individual? Note that "trust" is determined by who you choose to trust. You should update your trust list from the default list and add only those individuals that you have decided to trust. The rating you see is not universal for the site, it is specifically based off of the feedback created by individuals whose opinion you have decided to value. If you choose not to create a "trust list" of your own, then you will have a "default" list of people whose opinions the administrator of the site has decided to value. What specifically is said on the "trust page" of the individual? The fact that someone has some negative trust could simply be vindictive punishment from someone who didn't appreciate being outed for a scam they were perpetrating. It could be intimidation from someone who simply didn't agree with an opinion expressed by the individual. It is also possible for an individual to create multiple accounts to give themselves false feedback, or manipulate others into leaving positive feedback. Take a look at specifically what is said, how it is said, and who said it. Use this information to assist you in deciding how much weight to give the feedback in your decision making process. Read through several of the threads that the individual has participated in. From this you can determine if the individual has put forth an effort to maintain a respected reputation within the community. Someone who is looking for a "quick buck" won't have much concern for the reputation associated with their site ID since they don't intend to use it again after they've pulled off their scam. Someone who appears to value their reputation on the site will be more likely to act in a fair and trustworthy manner to protect that reputation. Of course, as indicated already, if the user is engaged in a "long con" the more skilled they are the more trustworthy they will appear and the better their reputation will be. You will be safest (against fraud) if you and the individual you are exchanging with are located in the same legal jurisdiction and you are able to confirm their real life identity prior to any transaction. Even more so if you meet up for a physical exchange in person. They should sticky this up at the top of the page for buyers. You did a very good job of explaining that to people who might be new to making transactions online like this. Good stuff. Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: Flashman on December 27, 2013, 11:49:38 PM Some indicators to consider: How many "posts" has an individual made? Someone with very few posts may have recently created an account for the sole purpose of committing fraud. Those interested in "making a quick buck" through fraud will often not be willing to take the time to build up a significant history of helpful posts. However, someone interested in a "long con" might be willing to put forth such an effort with plans to commit a fraud that results in a significant value at a date in the future. How much "activity" does an individual have? Activity measures not only how many posts, but also how much time a user has been active on the site. Again, the fraudster looking for a "quick buck" won't be willing to spend months or years participating in the community, and will therefore have a much lower "activity". As before, someone attempting a "long con" and hoping for a really large payoff at the end might be willing to put in significantly more time. SNIP Read through several of the threads that the individual has participated in. From this you can determine if the individual has put forth an effort to maintain a respected reputation within the community. Someone who is looking for a "quick buck" won't have much concern for the reputation associated with their site ID since they don't intend to use it again after they've pulled off their scam. Someone who appears to value their reputation on the site will be more likely to act in a fair and trustworthy manner to protect that reputation. Of course, as indicated already, if the user is engaged in a "long con" the more skilled they are the more trustworthy they will appear and the better their reputation will be. Not terribly reliable, I got taken for 5 BTC and change by someone who appeared to be a fairly upstanding member of the community. (i.e. "normal" amount of activity, been here for a reasonable length of time, posts showed no indication of nefarious intent) Bear in mind also, the admin allows selling of user accounts, so what you see might not be what you get. Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: BitcoinBobbeh on December 28, 2013, 12:22:09 AM Very informative :O
Just made my first trade with someone who hasn't been around a week. In retrospect I probably risked way too much BTC, but he came through. Probably wouldn't have done it if I had read this first :P Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: Viceroy on December 28, 2013, 12:29:10 AM Is there a way to sort out the most trusted, or do I just have to leapfrog until I find a good dealer? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Escrow+whitelist+site%3Abitcointalk.org Oh look a little self promotion, huh? Hey Danny, what state are you registered as an escrow agent in? What, you mean you are providing escrow services in public and you are not registered in any state as an escrow agent?\ (Trust nobody who is not an actual insured and bonded escrow agent, anything less is fraud). This site doesn't really have anything "official" or guaranteed to provide a reliable list of trustworthy individuals. The operators of the site seem to be aware that any such list would be subject to manipulation and fraud. Yet the site STILL uses the broken system. Because the site operator chooses to set up his friends as +trust (read tradefortress) nothing on this site is legitimate. Trust nobody. Danny Hamilton and all the others are uninsured FAKE escrow agents committing real crimes when they offer excrow services. Use NONE of them. By way of example: "In the terminology of the escrow industry, all escrow agents performing escrow services in California are either “licensed” or “controlled” escrow companies. A "licensed" escrow company, which is also known as an “independent” escrow company, is licensed by the Department of Corporations. " http://www.dbo.ca.gov/Licensees/default.asp Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: Bono on December 28, 2013, 01:54:12 AM I just conducted a trade with Bobbeh, seems to be on the up and up.
Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: delphs on December 28, 2013, 02:04:55 AM always try to escrow... plenty of trust worthy people but always some idiots
Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: DannyHamilton on December 28, 2013, 04:27:25 AM Some indicators to consider: How many "posts" has an individual made? Someone with very few posts may have recently created an account for the sole purpose of committing fraud. Those interested in "making a quick buck" through fraud will often not be willing to take the time to build up a significant history of helpful posts. However, someone interested in a "long con" might be willing to put forth such an effort with plans to commit a fraud that results in a significant value at a date in the future. How much "activity" does an individual have? Activity measures not only how many posts, but also how much time a user has been active on the site. Again, the fraudster looking for a "quick buck" won't be willing to spend months or years participating in the community, and will therefore have a much lower "activity". As before, someone attempting a "long con" and hoping for a really large payoff at the end might be willing to put in significantly more time. SNIP Read through several of the threads that the individual has participated in. From this you can determine if the individual has put forth an effort to maintain a respected reputation within the community. Someone who is looking for a "quick buck" won't have much concern for the reputation associated with their site ID since they don't intend to use it again after they've pulled off their scam. Someone who appears to value their reputation on the site will be more likely to act in a fair and trustworthy manner to protect that reputation. Of course, as indicated already, if the user is engaged in a "long con" the more skilled they are the more trustworthy they will appear and the better their reputation will be. Not terribly reliable, I got taken for 5 BTC and change by someone who appeared to be a fairly upstanding member of the community. (i.e. "normal" amount of activity, been here for a reasonable length of time, posts showed no indication of nefarious intent) Bear in mind also, the admin allows selling of user accounts, so what you see might not be what you get. See bold and underlined. Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: jonanon on December 28, 2013, 04:31:11 AM Just be careful when trading - use common sense and if it sounds too good to be true - it is!
;) Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: cp1 on December 28, 2013, 04:33:28 AM Use localbitcoins.
Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: DannyHamilton on December 28, 2013, 04:53:21 AM Is there a way to sort out the most trusted, or do I just have to leapfrog until I find a good dealer? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Escrow+whitelist+site%3Abitcointalk.orgSelf promotion? Nah, Just answering a question. Do you have a better answer to the specific question about how to "sort out the most trusted"? Hey Danny, what state are you registered as an escrow agent in? Link please to the United States licensing requirements imposed on an individual holding an item of value in escrow for a private (non real estate) transaction between two individuals? What, you mean you are providing escrow services in public and you are not registered in any state as an escrow agent? And I have never stated otherwise. Your statement appears to express surprise at this fact? (Trust nobody who is not an actual insured and bonded escrow agent, This is good advice. Can you please provide a link to an "actual insured and bonded escrow agent" that is willing to hold bitcoins in escrow for private transactions involving the exchange of items of value via USPS or other shipping methods? If I were aware of such an entity, I would most certainly be encouraging people to use the service. I am willing to hold bitcoins in escrow simply as a free service to the community while such a service is desired. anything less is fraud). Fraud? Are you sure? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk) "In criminal law, fraud is intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud) Are you suggesting that by providing a free and desired service to the community, I am engaging in "intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual"? ??? This site doesn't really have anything "official" or guaranteed to provide a reliable list of trustworthy individuals. The operators of the site seem to be aware that any such list would be subject to manipulation and fraud. Yet the site STILL uses the broken system. It is offered as a tool. Nobody is forced to use it. Because the site operator chooses to set up his friends as +trust (read tradefortress) nothing on this site is legitimate. Trust nobody. This is very good advice. As I've already stated: "You will be safest (against fraud) if you and the individual you are exchanging with are located in the same legal jurisdiction and you are able to confirm their real life identity prior to any transaction. Even more so if you meet up for a physical exchange in person." Danny Hamilton and all the others are uninsured FAKE escrow agents committing real crimes when they offer escrow services. What crime is committed? In what way is the service provided "fake"? Use NONE of them. And what are you suggesting then that users do to protect themselves from fraud when engaging in transactions with unknown individuals using an irreversible payment method? By way of example: "In the terminology of the escrow industry, all escrow agents performing escrow services in California are either “licensed” or “controlled” escrow companies. A "licensed" escrow company, which is also known as an “independent” escrow company, is licensed by the Department of Corporations. " http://www.dbo.ca.gov/Licensees/default.asp Thank you for the link. In light of this information, I will no longer provide escrow services to anyone that, to my knowledge, is in California. Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: jimmyvance on December 28, 2013, 07:22:26 AM Use localbitcoins. Localbitcoins? Lol. Please, stop promoting that site. ::) Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: akujin on December 28, 2013, 07:28:40 AM I realize that if you're not a miner, it's hard to get coins without losing 5-35% value of your money :(
Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: hilariousandco on December 28, 2013, 09:19:24 AM Rule number 1: Don't rust anybody. The trust system here is fundamentally flawed and is easily abused, so it's worth little.
Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: infinitybo on December 28, 2013, 09:37:19 AM @Bitcoinbobbeh Absolutely, you can ask for a lender moreover you should use the "lending " section.
Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: Flashman on December 28, 2013, 02:39:00 PM Not that there's not some kind of rules ... ;)
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Rules_of_Acquisition Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: rapport on December 30, 2013, 01:20:05 AM Hi there, I'm new to the forum (obviously lol) and I am wondering how trades are conducted or moderated here. Are there merchants with accounts or is everyone just a regular joe? Do we have an official escrow service? Yours noobily, BTCBobbeh This looks like a reliable escrow (and free) for transactions that are not large: http://www.bit2factor.org Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: rapport on December 30, 2013, 01:30:38 AM Very informative :O Just made my first trade with someone who hasn't been around a week. In retrospect I probably risked way too much BTC, but he came through. Probably wouldn't have done it if I had read this first :P Are you selling BTC? Title: Re: How are trades conducted here? Post by: BitcoinBobbeh on December 30, 2013, 04:14:09 PM Very informative :O Just made my first trade with someone who hasn't been around a week. In retrospect I probably risked way too much BTC, but he came through. Probably wouldn't have done it if I had read this first :P Are you selling BTC? I was awhile ago, I got some altcoin from Bono for my BTC though. |