Bitcoin Forum

January 2, 2014 is the release date of the 2013 Adam Smith Limited 1st Edition, by presidential sculptor John B. Andelin. This is a physical bitcoin containing 2 "cold stored" coins in addition to 2 Troy ounces of silver from Alitin Mint (alitinmint.com).  This is a VERY limited edition as only 600 coins have been struck in 2013.

This will signal a new standard in physical bitcoins.  The inaugural coin is 1.75 inches in diameter and 5 mm in thickness. Struck in two ounces of pure silver, the hefty coin dwarfs the U.S. silver dollar.

https://i.imgur.com/6oXlHjP.jpg

Besides the impressive size of the coin, Alitin mint has created a security system that is impressive.  The complete public address is engraved on the reverse face of each coin.  The private key is engraved on the edge of the coin, and is hidden from the view of the owner of the coin until the tamper proof acrylic case is opened.  The case is sealed, preventing opening without breakage. See picture below.

https://i.imgur.com/91rmXKO.jpg

Some have suggested that the engraved key on the edge of the coin could be subjected to hi tech imaging such as ultrasound, MRI and CT.  This issue has been discussed with professional radiologists, and it has been affirmed that such a quest lies far beyond the reach of any technology of the foreseeable future.

Another unique feature is that absolutely no defacing of the coin occurs upon redemption.   If an owner wants to remove the coin from its case just because he can't resist holding it in his hand, all he has done is diminish the resale value.  If he chooses to redeem the coin, the coin will continue to hold value as a collectible because the aesthetic integrity of the coin has not been compromised.

Alitin Mint, located in Springfield, Missouri, is a subsidiary of a licensed money services business with money transmitter licensing that has established strict anti-money laundering policies in accordance with U.S. government regulations. The security system of its coins reflects a proactive vision that will be sufficient even when bitcoins attain values of thousands of dollars each.  All engraving is done within the company in accordance with strict protocols.  In addition to the two layers of security of the cases themselves, a proprietary cipher system has been established to prevent the counterfeiting of Alitin coins.

The vision of Alitin Mint is to produce not only physical bitcoins that are secure, but also to create limited edition art pieces that in many cases surpass coinage produced by government mints.

The coins are created in high relief by sculptor John B. Andelin.   Each edition will honor a person who has selflessly contributed to the progress of humanity.  The next coin, scheduled to be released in February of 2014, will depict Joan of Arc.  Other coins will honor explorers, scientists, philosophers, and other world figures whose efforts have elevated mankind. Notably, a portion of all proceeds will be donated to the Bitcoin Foundation.

As a unique collectible, the holder of Alitin coins has a unique opportunity to collect a combination of bitcoins, precious metals, and limited edition art pieces, all in one product.  Each coin is signed and numbered by the artist on the inside of the case.  Such a unique collectible will likely attract not just those pre-commited to bitcoin, but numismatists and other collectors who are not as familiar with bitcoin.  In this manner, it is hoped that the sale of Alitin coins will help spread the bitcoin message to the world.

PLEASE NOTE: Alitin Mint is in the business of selling limited edition collectible pieces of art which are fashioned out of precious metals and which contain embedded crypto-currency. Alitin Mint is not an investment advisory firm and it does not offer investment advice in any form. Alitin Mint encourages you to seek professional advice from a licensed investment adviser before making any decisions about investing your money.

You images are missing!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=343912.msg3684352#msg3684352

What sort of markup? And escrow?

Nice!  I'll buy a few of those.

2.9btc right now.
A big bump for brand new company..

How much are these selling for?

when will these ship out?  the website says 6-8 weeks and they go on sale tomorrow.  Have they not been made?

Ahh you quoted me the price!  Didn't even notice you were not the OP.  Sorry.  I've deleted those posts.

That is quite a high premium. I'd have been interested as I have some other physicals which are nice collection items to have.

Would you consider shipping first to a trusted community member also since you are so new?

I also would like to buy one or two of these. Are you happy with escrow first to gain some trust?

If you feel like sending first all the better, you should be able to see I am not a scammer.

I am interested in buying one of these as well.  Only thing that concerns me is the 6-8 week delivery time.  Makes me wonder if these guys will just be gambling with the money we front and fail to deliver if btc price rises and of course fill the order if it drops.  I'm OK with the premium, just wish they would ship out faster

Would love tor eview one of these for the up & coming Bitcoin/altcoin magazine... should make it in time for Issue # 2 :)

I hadn't noticed this. Why would you need 6/8 weeks? This does seem strange. You get the bitcoins and ten send the next day surely, unless you haven't made them?

We have made most of them, and in most cases they will ship faster than 6-8 weeks.  Many have already sold.  But assembly is slow and very meticulous.  As you can imagine, we have many security concerns, so there are very few people who get to handle these things and the process, by design and necessity, is extremely slow to produce a finished product.  And only one person ever sees the private keys before they are destroyed from our records--and that person is me.  I am the CEO and I engrave the coins myself.  I also do the ciphers and much of the packaging.  Tamper proofing cases like this is a challenge.  It's slow and tedious work.  But thorough.  We built in 6-8 weeks just in case we got big orders.  We would rather our customers be pleasantly surprised than disappointed.  

As to your fraud concerns; i.e., waiting to deliver them to see what the market does, or cancel the order: First of all, we are a licensed money transmitter and a registered MSB.  If we mess around like that, we get shut down pretty quick.  We'd rather have a successful business than play games. As a money transmitter, we are bonded with the government.  That means they have a lien on a huge pile of money that we fronted, and if we mess with you, they take it and probably throw us in jail.  Doing stuff like this is very challenging from a regulatory compliance point of view, and very expensive.  

This, by the way, also answers the question about markup.  In a business like this, you have to build some costs in to markup because it is VERY expensive to comply with the government's requirements.  This is also why we couldn't get these things out in 2013.  We had the coins done, but the government got in the way of our selling them legally.  But we do things by the books here at Alitin Mint, albeit resentfully at times in the case of government regulations.  And you will get your coins at the price you ordered them, whether or not, or how, the market fluctuates.  Try us.  

Another comment on cost: you're not buying an arcade token here.  Much respect to physical bitcoins that have come before us, but this is not like other physical bitcoins.  These coins are a limited edition set designed by a very prestigious sculptor, and they are pure silver.  They will last a lifetime or longer.  And unlike the arcade tokens, there are no corny stickers that deface the coin or decrease its aesthetic once redeemed.  Our public addresses and private keys are *engraved* on these coins.  Permanently.  Then they are sealed in a tamper proof case with many layers of security.  I could go on, and I did detail some of the advantages in my original post, but to summarize: these are just different.  Our site explains more.  www.alitinmint.com.  

And yes, we will work with reputable escrow, but we will do our own due diligence on any escrow services or escrow agents before we agree to it.  The "trust but verify" thing works both ways; we don't want to be cheated either. And we will charge a fee for escrow as well.  TBD on a case by case basis.  

Fair enough.

I will PM you with an order and a few escrow suggestions to look at.

Thanks for the response.  Looking forward to ordering once I hear some good reviews

Feel free to use me as an Escrow if required.

I would still be interested if you are willing to send first.

Don't most press releases usually involve, you know, the press?

I ordered 10 of them. I am related to the artist John B. Andelin. I paid entirely with bitcoin and my understanding is that the 6-8 weeks is only if you pay with a credit card. They anticipate getting them shipped in 2-3 weeks if paying with bitcoin. That's my understanding.

I pre-ordered one, paid with BTC and had my order confirmed on Jan 2nd.  I believe I may be one of the first to actually receive the coins.  I will post a pic when it arrives.

I received my shipping info today, along with USPS tracking number.  I will post a picture and my overall thoughts when it arrives.

* morgan dollar

How does one actually verify that the coins are indeed silver? Without access to the coin itself given the case needs to remain closed how does one confirm this?

Not sure if I would ever claim that something is "Tamper-proof" as nothing is tamper-proof if attackers are given enough time and resources to find ways around security mechanisms.

Other than that this is an interesting concept/project.

 :)

Currently going for 2.9294 BTC each.

Just out of curiosity... How would you verify that they are silver if you had them out of the cases?
How can anyone "verify" that something is solid silver vs silver-plated?

There are acid tests, but you could also measure the coin's weight in troy oz. Using the normal volume of silver per mass this could be established. Of course I am no expert in this area but not having access to the coin at any point prior to redeeming removes any verification of the coin being actually silver.

I'm sure there are other way to determine this.

Does the "acid test" of which you speak do anything to deface the silver?  Does it determine whether it's solid silver or silver plated? 
I think your point would be more valid if these were  bullion coins. Given the value of the attached two bitcoins, it seems unlikely that someone would be attempting to defraud on the silver content of the coin.

These are bullion coins ...silver bullion to be specific based on the assay written on the coin's face.

You are speaking in terms of current silver prices. Now if silver went to the moon you would likely retract your statement as 2 oz of silver could be worth much more than $40 to $60.

My question still remains unanswered. Hopefully I will get a response from the OP.

The other issue I can see is that because said radiologist claims the casing is secure enough not to be broken with current technologies is not enough for me to believe it. I've claimed this all over this forum and in real life that talk is cheap.

Just because someone says something, doesn't make it true. Now whether or not the casing mentioned does what is claimed remains to be proven publicly.

Defcon perhaps?


Edit: My comments above are basing the word BULLION on the statement of "FINE SILVER" on the coin's face. I presume this means at least .999 Fine Silver.

Let's be clear I am making no accusations here. Merely questioning the modes of verification of said claims both in the metal content and the security of the casing made by the radiologist.

If the reputation of the company is good, there's really no reason to doubt the weight and purity of the coin as stamped on the coin.

I would be interested to know if Alitin mints their own bullion, or if they source it to a third party minting service, but if the reputation of the mint is good, I see no reason to doubt the authenticity of the silver.  One nice thing about these physical bitcoins (and Casascius' bitcoins, and Lealana Litecoins) is that I can verify the balance of the coin at any time, with little difficulty.

One more thing.  Outside of a density test which most people are not equipped to do, other methods of testing are destructive to the coin, like the acid test (to test for purity) or a scratch test (to test for plating).

There are certainly levels of tamper-resistance, and I think these coins appear far more tamper resistant than any other physical bitcoins out there. 
First, if the cases cannot be entered without breaking them, then the crook must somehow manufacture his own identical cases... That is, to say the least, an expensive proposition.
Second, if entering the case destroys the hologram and the signature and the hologram, then two additional barriers are introduced.
Third, the coins themselves are of moderately complex design...and would be far more difficult to counterfeit than most physical bitcoins.
Finally, even if a thief successfully counterfeited a case, Alitin Mint claims to have a proprietary cipher system in place where they can verify if a case is legitimate.

The only other physical bitcoin out there that appears this secure seems to be titan bitcoin.  The only drawback is that [it is my understanding] you have to concede actual ownership of the bitcoins to a third party until they are redeemed.

Keep in mind that there are other methods of "gaining access" to something without actually opening the container. Ever heard of ultrasound as one simple example?

Your second point I am not sure I follow. You say "if" but I'm not sure I read that that is what happens when opening the case.

Your third point is concerning counterfeit coins. Tampering and counterfeiting coins are two separate topics.

Your last point are just claims. I'm not saying any of the claims aren't true, but until it has been proven to be true as in the claim about the case being "tamper-proof" and the comment the radiologist made concerning current technology, are simply just that, claims without proof publicly given.

Hopefully someone can give these coins a test to different tampering mechanisms to prove or disprove said claims. As I've said, talk is cheap.

Very true reputation is very important. I agree that with reputation it would almost be a non-issue for the company to sell coins without them being tested for purity.

But exactly what is the reputation of said company and OP?

I guess time will tell on that one.

Did I miss where they posted which mint mints these coins?

I was under the impression that there were other devices that could be used to determine the purity of a silver or gold coin. One of my local coin shop dealers said he's used a type of "gun". Not sure if it was ultrasonic or whatever but he claimed it works. Then again that is just talk and I haven't verified that claim myself.

Like I keep saying I don't claim to be an expert on the topic. Just merely wanted to ask the question that comes to mind concerning purity.

Very excited.

My second point... You are correct... I'm supposing that you can't enter the case without destroying the hologram and signature.

I think it's up to a skeptic to prove that something is out there that can image an etched engraving on metal. I can tell you that I am almost  certain that no conventional medical imaging equipment could obtain an engraved private key off of a silver coin.  In the first place, metal interferes with CT and MRI imaging. Secondly, the engraving is on a curved surface, so any imaging would require thousands of slices.  Thirdly, no medical imaging devices are even close to that precise as far as resolution is concerned.   If you are aware of any device that could achieve such resolution, I would be interested to know what it is and how expensive it would be. 

You make very valid points here. I still am a big believer if an attacker is given enough resources and time any security feature will break. This debunks the claim of tamper-proof in my view.

I am very curious to see these coins be tested especially the casing. Very exciting stuff.  :)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/92320622/2013AdamSmith.jpg

I bought 10 of them. Here is a picture of one.

Case looks very carefully sealed. Very pretty.

They publish all of the public addresses on their website as they ship them. I got an early one because I am related to the artist and because I bought a larger amount.

I will be handing them down to my children.

really nice looking

looks nice, too bad I have no more to spend at the moment...

looks really nice!

These are the only physical bitcoins I've ever purchased. (should receive them any day)  I love the fact that they've got quality art as well as collectible value.  ...and the case really does look tamper proof.

Got mine yesterday:

http://s17.postimg.org/m4fjx2573/image.jpg

http://s3.postimg.org/ahx69cr83/image.jpg

The quality of the coin/medal is very good. High relief with lots of detail, and a two oz coin is really a nice size. The slab is as secure as any other slab I've ever seen, and with the wallet printed on the slab and engraved into the coin, and a scannable QR code, it should never be a problem to verify the balance. I did verify the balance on blockchain and sure enough it is loaded with 2 BTC. Lastly, I think it's really neat that on the rear of the slab the coin is individually numbered, mine is #51 of the first 600 struck. Overall I'm really happy with the coin and think it makes an excellent addition to my collection.

Very nice indeed! I'm drooling sort of.  ;D

That is a very impressive coin...by far the highest quality I've seen.

Wow, I'm quite blown away. I've never thought of purchasing physical bitcoins until I seen these. I'm completely amazed at how simple the idea is of concealing the private key, which I mean simple as in just being on the side of the coin. That was an ingenious idea, because just as they stated, it will not ruin the coins aesthetics when they are redeemed.

The price I thought at first was somewhat high that being 2.9 BTC for a 2 oz Silver coin loaded with 2 bitcoins but then I seen the pictures. Completely jealous after seeing that people own these coins now. Just looking at the pictures that I quoted goes to show a lot about that company and their mint. This is 101% fine artisan work and each one is truly honed down to perfection. The security steps they took were also very clever as well, with pretty much a 3 part safety system. They have created a physical bitcoin that is beautiful to the eye, unique, and one of the most secure to date yet they still have made the process of redeeming the coin and verifying it's balance very easy.

I'm dead set on owning at least one of these in the near future and I do believe these coins set the new standard. I'm proud to see a product of this caliber being released by some new faces within the community. This just goes to show that every part of Bitcoin is slowly improving and being built upon, even the physical coins. The prompt replies and thorough detailed explanations by the founder or face of the company were also very positive. I believe these gentlemen have a prosperous future ahead of them and I would be more than willing to support and/or invest in their company. I like their attitude and product that they delivered which was spot on with how they described it: True Quality.

Hmm, this does look and sound like well designed products.
I do have a few issues/questions that I have misgivings about though.

*I'd like to hear some more info and opinions on the security of the engraved privkey, and also the results of attempts to read privkey off the coin rim without breaking the seal.
    Couple simple tests i can think of:  
    Bouncing various ultrasonic/electromagnetic/light frequencies  off the coin edge at various angles (and temperatures) to see if can get a readable image through the shielding material.
    Reading magnetism/diamagnetism around the coin edge (would a hdd head pickup anything for example?)
    Physically deforming the plastic or shielding itself to read past it.

* The provided info here and on the website is lacking a lot of important information such as; any real technical details, any external references or info to backup the claims of  compliance with  regulations and licensing (as a money transmitter). So all were given to go on is their word. Being a highly skilled professional gynecologist myself, I'm often telling clients that they can trust me when i say I'm qualified.

* Nowhere have a found mention of what country they are located-in/shipping-from, nor a single mention of international shipping info.
   [rant] I'm able to deduce that they are located in USA by using my advanced knowledge of international geographic locations to recognize some of the names given at ( https://www.alitinmint.com/alitinmint/Home/About )
    And also by the fact that they don't seem to comprehend the Internet is worldwide (sorry), so advertising a product on the internet without providing this important country/shipping infomation is incompetent a best.
   Even slightly insulting that they did not even consider how seriously annoying it is for anyone (except own countrymen i guess), wasting a lot of my time.
   That said, USA is not the only culprit of failing to consider anyone past thier own patriotic ignorance, failing to provide required details on website (though by far the worst offender i'd say). I have seen sites from my home country and other international companies websites fail to clearly show locations and shipping info, though rarely have I been abl to find the locations country at all and any international shipping information  at all. [/rant]

So while the coin looks great astheticly, and the security could be acceptable if done correctly, theres no actual technical details provided to even speculate on security of physical coin, theres no references to prove any trust in the company and its claims at all, and whilst i dont care for reculatons complience and liscencing so much, i do care about the security of the key at manufacture, do they have a database with all the private keys on the coins whcih they will steal when it suits them? Wll the lackingl details and narrowminded incompetencies of the website don't seem very preffesional, and that says a lot more than a pretty coin and plastic case does to me.
The coin/case does look very well designed and thoughtout though, i'd prolly still pickup one myself,  just to test myself which would likely end in breaking it open and transfering coins out for sience (or  for security if needed).


well, that's just my ignorant observations, speculation, slander and complaints anyway, i'd not believe a word of it if myself.

Did you email these concerns and quesions to them?  Please post their response when they get back to you.  Thanks!

With all due respect, I'm surprised that a "professional gynecologist" would be actually think that any ultrasonic or electromagnetic detection device would be capable of deciphering a private key engraved on the edge of a coin.  Given the fact that you can't even determine the gender of a fetus before 17 weeks, what makes you think that ultrasound could read an engraving only 2 or 3 thousandths on an inch deep on a curved metallic surface?

As far as the location of Alitin Mint... They are headquartered in Springfield, Missouri...it's on the website.  I didn't see anything about international shipping, though.

Maybe they should document of their website that they have a money transmitter license...I know that Richard Forsyth did say on this thread that they are fully licensed.  If you google "Alitin Mint", I think you can see that they are licensed.  That should be a comfort to those who are skeptical of an unknown company, because they must have invested significant resources to obtain licensure.

[edit - Warning! Intoxicated obscenities herein]


Trust me, i'm a professional. Also please pass a message to your wife for me, i'll be able to see here tomorrow at 11.
Don't worry i'm a professional. She's in good hands, or is that good hands are in her!.... okay sorry to bring it to that crude level, i'll stop talking shit now (well i'll try anyway).
 [edit]
just wanted to clarify that i do not intent to insult or offend you in any way there. I was just meaning to say that I most certainly am not qualified in any medical profession, and it's never wise to trust someones wild claims without checking some 3rd party reference  material to correlate or said claims somewhat.
I was just talking crap on account of my being a raving lunatic, trust me i've got the certificate in the field of lunacy.
[/edit]

I have no idea if it would be feasable to even render such a fine detail resolution from high frequency sound waves traveling through air (or gorrillla snot if we wanted something denser) and whatever the shielding material a few mil distance.
I could wildly speculate that the untrasound  for human filth worm babies would have to penete a lot deeper, and cover a broader area, possibly a small focused tranceducer, at higher frequency might could give a higher resolution for a much smaller focal area, or its possible that the denser metal would produce a more defined reflection than a human worm baby in the womb might too.

id have some ingnorant wild speculations using radiowaves too.
i'd find it interesting finding out just how woefully wrong i am though. If i thought i already knew the answer then i'd no longer find it  interesting (and i'd still be wrong but too stupid to relise it).

The risk of someone reading the privkey in this manner is easily mitigated by just buying directly from the manufacturer instead of reseller, and then keeping it safe yourself.
So it's no big issue either way, i just find it interesting at it is good to know it's secure too, i'd love to hear some oppinions of anyone who has a better understanding then me on this subject (which is most) or anyone who doesnt.



Yes my extensive knowledge for geography enabled me to recognise from the name alone that was likely somewhere in USA, not everyone can be expected to know every province in every country like i do though (okay i don't realy, that was bullshit too, you  would likely know more on than me).

[rant]
For anyone without supper geogirafey knowledge like me, they would have to google that vague location found on the about-us page of that site.
For example, i live in Nowra, New South Wales.
When you are browsing a site which is wasting your time cos it doesn't just tell you where it is located in the world, you navigate to the about-us page, loosing concentration on current task, and thankfuly the about-us page lists the address, and oh fuck me that "Nowra, New South Wales" is like tits on a fucking bull, close to fucking useless but hey maybe if you pull on them hard enough (googlesearch the address) then you might just find what your looking for (the country name).
Sadly this time i woke up stone cold in the paddock aching like i'd been knocked out by an angry bull (the no international shipping info on any page, i just read every fucking sentance b , time i'd have better spent milking a cow and drinking delicious fresh milk, now where the fuck was i before i started this pointless endevour?... ah fuckit ).
and fuck analogies too!

It's just fucking inconsiderate .
[/rant]


 [edit - should i delete/cleanup that post/dribble?]

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/7a/66/81/7a668194ef3ea457ffbb442e1e585bd3.jpg

"supper geogirafey knowledge" lol  ;D