Bitcoin Forum

Hi,


I would like to know how much bandwidth a system with 5 Quad 6990 would use.
I plan to have the system deployed in a location where only 3G access is possible.

The bandwidth I have is:

Option 1:

1Mbps download 384Kps upload

Option 2:

1Mbps download 384Kps upload


Option 3:

4Mbps download 640Kps upload


Is this enough for a set of 5 mining rigs each with 4 X 6990 ?

Regards.
 

Bitcoin doesn't use that much bandwidth so I don't think that'll be a problem... but the latency of 3G is probably going to drive your stales up a fair bit. 3G latency can easily reach several seconds, and I think people may have even seen packet latencies of over a minute on occasion...

Hi,


That is really not good.
I think that can happen because of crowded 3G spots ...
Anyway a figure for the bandwidth usage would be cool ...


Regards.

those speeds are probably fine.

also keep in mind that most carriers got rid of their unlimited plans, or they throttle the rate to a lower level after you hit a certain threshold.
 
probably safe estimating that you'll see about 10mb down and 5mb up per day, per rig.    i.e., 3g probably won't work for you.

Agreed, Bitcoin mining uses very little bandwidth overall.  Even kilobits-per-second would be fine.  What you should be more concerned with is the ping time, AKA network latency.  The higher the latency, the higher the chance that the block you "found" will have already been discovered by someone else in the time it takes to propagate through the network.

EDIT:  For "3G" at least on the USA's AT&T network, I've never had much worse than 1-second ping times.  "EDGE" service had closer to 3-second ping times.  Or in gamer terms, World of Warcraft was laggy but playable on 3G, but completely unplayable on EDGE. 

HI,

Thanks a lot for all your answers!

Ok, some more info.

All of those options have indeed limitless Time and Data use, but they all cut bandwidth after a data limit.

Option 1: After 1GB download speed =  128 Kbps
Option 2: After 2GB download speed =  128 Kbps
Option 3: After 4GB download speed =  128 Kbps

That sucks!
They do not even speak about upload speeds after the data limit.

I imagine it will be also 128Kpbs.

The operator is Vodafone.
Anyway they have a more interesting plan with:


Option 4:

7.2 Mbps download, 1.4Mbps Upload No Data Limits !


Regards.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply:

Just for a matter of accuracy:
You mean:

10 Mega Bytes per day 10MB down and 5Mega Bytes per day up 5MB ? Right  :) ?
(not 10mega bits ... 10mb)

Regards.

Cool!
That should do it.
I am also considering a Second card, but that cost much more I have to see what will happen and test it.


It's like this ... I am a Linux guy, so the only thing I need is one of those usb 3G pen modems from Vodafone (Huawey models) and a ethernet switch :)
That's it.
Nothing else to increase latency in the middle like wifi hotspots ...


Regards.

10MB... Per day... PER WORKER (GPU).

Just wanted it to be clear ;)

Cheers,
Kermee

Hi,


:) :)

Thanks ... but this is still not clear :) :)

The 6990 have actually Two GPU's inside :)
So ...
I must assume the 10MB/day are for gpu's like 6970 and the like ?

A single 6990 would consume 20MB/day ?


Regards.

Correct.

I'm pulling it based off of slush's calculations done a while ago:


It actually comes out to about 17.2MB per day, per worker, but I think that's a bit on the high side.  Someone else said 36MB per day with BTC Guild... But I honestly think it's closer to 10MB per day... I don't think there's HTTP traffic every 5 seconds... Though I could be wrong.

One of these days, I'll actually do a tcpdump at the firewall and add up the traffic amounts over a 24 hours period.

Cheers,
Kermee

Has anyone actually done this? I mean really put up a mining rig on a 3g or 4g network and has some empirical performance data to share?

Thank you!

P.S any chance of moving this out of the Newbies section into Mining where it can get some more eyeballs and hopefully responses?

I'll try one of mine on my EVO later today, on which note two questoins
1 how far is this from your house or other wifi would long range wifi be an option
2 you can purchase a used android device and then use it on sprint as a pay as you go through virgin for unlimited data only carrier left with it is sprint(and it's sub companies virgin and boost)

Hi,


I am not in the USA. I live and work in Europe.


There are many reasons to use 3G and some are like this:

1 - Where I live the energy costs for residential houses is Huge. Much higher then enterprise/industrial installations.
So it is only profitable for me to have my rigs on industrial installations. Hence ... the need for remote access.

2 - I am out of the house all day because I work. I would not leave a bunch of very expensive gear alone.

3 - I do not have to listen to all that noise when I am at home.

4 - Neighbours would not complain about it either :) ...
.
.
.

Basically there are many reasons but the idea is that one must take advantage of resources already deployed in order to be cost effective, be it security, electricity, low annoyance levels  ... whatever.

The facility does have high bandwidth (ADSL 12Mbps or Cable), but I really doubt they will ever let me use it ... so it must be really 3G 7.2Mbps/1.44Mbps ...

I would really appreciate if someone could at least make a test with a setup like this and let us know the results.


Regards.

That puts the validity of testing my evo out since it's CDMA not GSM. Have you checked to see if there is wifi in the facility? If they won't let you tap into the network why would they let you use their power?

Hi,


I do not think they have wifi, but that is not the issue I could give then several wap's I have from Asus.
They have equipment that needs their link, so I really doubt they will ever let me even ask to use "their vital" connection.
Nearby I did not make a scan, I will do it with my phone as soon as I go there again.

About the power usage: Easy: I pay them a rate higher then the one they are charged :) .... profit for them :)
And Power they have a lot of it, moreover, they can always ask for more ... it is just a matter of requesting another contract and that can even lower their energy bill a bit more ...
And they have also a Huge amount of free space.

About the validity of your test I really do not agree.
Please make a small test at least in order to see if with CDMA it is a viable way to mine.

Apart from the possible different delays between the two networks if bandwidth wyse your test succeeds ... that is a really good indication of the hole concept being possible.

If someone else does have the possibility to make this experiment please let us know how it goes.
 
Regards.

My miners were unable to connect over 3g as a test i belive there may be too much delay in the connection but will try again later after looking for an improved wifi tether app.

Hi,


 :-\  ???... that is really strange.
For all due purpose even with more delay 3G should work as any other say 3,6 Mbps or whatever your link supports.

Using a tether with some wifi device is really not a good approach.
It really increases the delay (my system will not be tethered) and it also poses the issue of what is blocked among the entire device chain ...
Could simply be a problem of your device blocking ports your miners normally use ... (other then the most obvious ones ...)

Regards.

I just wanted to update you on this, i installed the latest version of android tether during an update and managed to get my laptop to connect(a whoping 10mh out of it's quadro) so yes it's possible but i wouldnt run too many rigs off it, i'll try it with a production level rig (6x5830) when i get it stable later this week

I am up north in soviet canukistan, but I have a (decent) cell phone data plan/connection that I have used twice now as a backup: I just tethered my phone to a netbook that had booted an ubuntu live disk (over wifi, even, so extra hops because I was lazy) and then shared the connection out on my network. I have five machines, 10 workers, 3.8 GH total, at btcguild, and they rocked along fine while my ISP got around to eventually fixing it. Only ran for a couple hours, but they seemed to be operating at normal speeds: I don't know if stales might have been higher, though, too low of a sample size.

Now, as caveats, I am in a full coverage area, with a newish android phone, so I was running at .. I think it is HSDPA speed, 7.2 MB. (on rogers, if it's important) And, I have a 30 GB data plan, so I don't really have to care about the bits shuffled.

Hi,


:) Soviet Canukistan :) ... I had to google for that lol :)
Before going forward with this subject, thanks for the efforts and info on both you and also deslok. Your info is very useful for many people in this forum.

Like I previously mentioned, I think that 3G is obviously usable and possible to deploy, and my intention was to have 20 X 6990's all crunching day and night, so with such a system I think it is possible to operate on a 3G+ 7.2Mbps download and 1.4Mbps upload.
About 14GH/s ...  :o

As the system is always on the same place one can optimize signal reception.

And my worries where not about tethering connections but rather possible maximum bandwidth problems.
The only problem with tethering would be likely some configuration problems on the network chain of devices.

Also the Major problem with 3G/wireless networks is the bigger delays the connection has to sustain and even more importantly ... the Availability of the bandwidth.
Even if I go for the 7.2/1.4 Mbps plan which costs 30euros/Month with Vodafone the problem remains the same ... is the 3G/wireless Tower loaded ?

If the area where the system is installed is very busy with communications, even voice calls, then the available bandwidth will no doubt be decreased ...
So this is indeed a problem that can cause substantial connectivity downgrade.
This is why wireless bandwidth are known to be of much less "quality"...
Other then that wireless could also be less reliable ...

About Soviet Canukistan :) that is a Great place to mine! In all meanings of the word :)
Does anyone there rent space for this purpose ? Like ... very low cost ... backyard space...
You see: you guys have great low temperature almost all year long (depending on location of Course ...Canada is a really big place.) and also ... low power costs!
That is perfect for mining !


Regards.

 

Keep in mind the limitations if a hotspot, my phone claims support for 8 but even my actual router struggles with more than six wireless devices.

Hi,


Yes.
My idea is not to use wifi.
I will simply connect a usb 3G modem to a Linux PC which will act as the main computer and Router/firewall of the network of 5 PC's.
Each will have 4 6990's.

So the idea is to have all those 5 PC's running and the network access will be the 3G card.
They will all be connected to a Ethernet switch.
In this manner there is no wifi going on.
The only option to use wifi would be If the guys where I am placing the computers would let me use their wifi ... but has previously mentioned I really really doubt it.
If that was the case every single PC would connect trough the wifi wap.

Regards.

Striker, are you in Portugal? The tariff option of Vodafone smell like it.

Be sure to handle reconnections well, like restarting the connections when ping is lost and restarting miners if they hang up somehow.

Hi,


Yup, you're right, and the service would be Vodafone Best Net Max (post payed) ... great coverage all over by the way... even in the typical small little villages.
http://www.vodafone.pt/main/Particulares/BandaLargaMovel/blm_pospaga/blm_pospaga_tarifario.htm (http://www.vodafone.pt/main/Particulares/BandaLargaMovel/blm_pospaga/blm_pospaga_tarifario.htm)

I must use a remote location for obvious electricity price reasons ...

It is only affordable/profitable if one uses industrial electricity price rates.
There is also the VAT increase over the electric bill problem next January. Banks made mistakes and now everyone has to pay for it ! BIG F#CK !
This means that for all due purposes residential electric price will be around 0.20->0.22euro/ KWH instead of the current 0.16euro/KWH.

Thanks for the warnings, I actually tested at work a 7.2Mbps card with mtr and with an the signal strength was not that good (from my mobile Phone I could see only three bars on 3G connection (out of 6 possible) ). It actually was a very good quality connection! And it was a wifi Hotspot device from vodafone ... those that are setup right away.
Pretty cool actually, I am confident about the 3G operation.
The only problem is really _at the site_ ... Conditions vary greatly depending on traffic on the antenna, reception conditions etc ...

About the monitoring of the rigs and Software ... yeah that is also another Very important set of scripts and processes ... From the miners to temperature to network etc ...
I am still in a process of making the right setup in a single PC at home with just one card in order to prepare for "The Real Deal" :) :)

Thanks for the tip anyway.

Regards.

Sorry to sound negative but if you are considering this big kind of setup right now, you are setting up for failure. At current price / difficulty, mining is at lowest ever profitability and the price could tank anytime.

I already regret my decision to invest in mining. Buyer beware !

Just to share, I'm using 3G connection with this:
http://www.aztech.com/prod_3g_hw550.html

I currently have 3 rigs putting out about 4Ghs via this 3G router.

I have some scripts that report the temperature to my webserver (public IP) every 10mins.

For remote control, I start a reverse tunnel on the rigs that ssh to my webserver. So I can ssh to my webserver from anywhere, and tunnel back to the rigs.

Hope this is useful.

regards,
Koo

Hi,


Just to clear everyone about my investment.
I actually do know how to check for profitability on any investment. Thanks for the heads up anyway.

But my particular situation is maybe quite different from others: It is all about How everyone accounts for the investment.

In my case the hardware will be registered to my company, so in 3 years it is Fully Deductible on taxes.
Either the hardware goes to bitcoin mining or to the taxes that are spend by the State ... what do you think I will be choosing.
Also as stated earlier as long as I pay for the electricity ... No Problem, there is always return.
So everyone's situation is different in this regard.
Also you bet on bitcoins being low all the time, I bet they will go up!

Regards.

Hi,





Great feedback!
Thanks for the info !

I also had the idea of setting a ssh tunnel. I also some web servers on datacenters ... But actually you can monitor everything simply exchanging on your local lan data to a file from all your rigs. Actually that is very very easy ... use ftp, sftp, shared nfs folder ... whatever.
Then on the Master rig (the one that acts as a router ) serving as gateway for the lan, the one with the USB 3G modem, start postfix and simply install the Mail program ...

Want to send email every ... say 30 minutes ... on how everything is going ... make all pc's script output on the shared dir their status/temps/whatever and then simply:

run a script to email the report like this:

#bash\: mail -s “Hello world this is Bitcoin mining Rigs report :) ” youremail@yourdomain.com < /home/<user>/application.log


you can also just use :

#bash\: mail -s “Hello world” youremail@yourdomain.com 

to write the message subject or:

#bash\: echo “This will go into the body of the mail.” | mail -s “Hello world” youremail@yourdomain.com

Simple, effective.

A cron job can run in all PC's and also a script can be made in order to evaluate if everything is OK according to your parameters ... then maybe no eamil is needed to be sent ... or just an email saying ... "OK Mining RIGS RULE!!! :) " 


Regards.

I try not to have a "manager node", in case that is a single point of failure.

I use a lazy solution on all the rigs, this script runs via crontab:


On the server, temp.php

The lazier yet answer is BAMT, I used to have logs running, going to a single node, etc, but now I just run mgpumon and everything is there :p

I think this is worth a bump since litecoin. I wonder what the bandwidth of that is.

I was kind of hoping it might be possible to reduce the bandwidth somehow. I wonder if a distributed system might be more efficient (distcc is the analogy). 10mb is a lot to my mind, I remember things in terms of dialup.

I see the key thing is to have a quick response to the network when a block is found. Does this mean that satelite connections are not feasible...

my situation is that bandwith is extremely limited but could be opened if a block is found. I solo mine.

But as I understand, you have to download a new block whenever someone else finds the current one right? ...and since that happens often it means you can't just download a load of work to work on offline and then reply only when you want to claim a block?

It would be possible to make a pool more bandwidth efficient.  NtimeRolling reducing number of getworks that are necessary.  Most pools use 1 difficulty shares for tracking work but that is a somewhat arbitrary choice.  A pool could use 10 difficulty shares to reduce the number of shares submitted by a miner by a factor of 10.  Pools could also only change transactions in block (queue up new transactions) periodically to reduce the number of discrete block headers. 

All those combined could significantly reduce the amount of communicaiton between the pool and clients.  A guestimate is that you could see a 90% reduction in bandwidth by queuing transactions for up to 1 minute, using large difficulty shares, and a large NTimeRolling value. 

  Quick is all relative.  With sat you likely will have a higher stale rate (as would anyone with high latency connection) but you still could mine.


Correct.  You need to be "aware" (via mining pool or in case of solo mining via bitcoind) that a block is found so you can start work on the new block.