Bitcoin Forum

First the, main reason this thread is in "Marketplace" is because of the gargantuan "$45,000 thread" in here.  But, it also fits here because it is about Mt. Gox and Mt. Gox is a key player in the Bitcoin marketplace.

Second, the purpose of this topic is to help out people who are trying to interpret what that giant thread actually means for Bitcoin, Mt. Gox, etc. without having to wade through it.  It is not a place for bickering over scams, calling people out, arguing about details--page 6289 of the other thread is for that.  It is just a simple place for people, in one short post per person, to describe their level of trust in Mt. Gox, and what their personal experience with the site and its owner has been.  Save the speculation and philosophical conflicts for elsewhere, please.  Let's keep this about just the day-to-day participation of Mt. Gox in the Bitcoin community.

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Now, to help ensure the details of that other thread don't need to get rehashed too much in this one, here's a rough overview of what it contains:

On February 21, a user "Baron" (new account) posted (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg52637#msg52637) that:

• his Mt. Gox account had been frozen with approximately 45,000 USD in it.
• Mt. Gox had questions over certain Bitcoins in his possession
• Baron had purchased these Bitcoins anonymously over IRC and was unable to remember any details such as channel, usernames, etc.
• the frozen money came from Liberty Reserve

Mt. Gox responded:

Baron continued posting extensively, saying he wanted to return the 9000 BTC in question (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg53798#msg53798), offering his own chronology (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg54561#msg54561), but then later altering (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg54667#msg54667) his original IRC story (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg54135#msg54135), saying that although he had trusted Mt. Gox with 45,000 USD he would not provide Mt. Gox with his real name or an ID scan (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg54395#msg54395), saying that involving authorities and the law would be financially impractical (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg54646#msg54646) but then claiming to have spoken with his lawyers (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg54738#msg54738) less than 2 hours later.

TheKoziTwo demonstrated (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg54637#msg54637) how Baron's account was linked to the BTC in question--a direct link with no middlemen.

Mt. Gox clarified:

"Baron" continued posting more irately, threatening legal action and demanding access (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg56018#msg56018) to the frozen account "to take screenshots", demanding information (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg57854#msg57854) about Mt. Gox, claiming unable to speak on the phone due to muteness (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg58009#msg58009), etc.

Mt. Gox offered a complete rundown of what happened with Baron's account (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg57901#msg57901).  Executive summary:  damning evidence of more than $45,000 worth of theft.

Baron began posting in red (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg57917#msg57917) that Mt. Gox is a scammer, that he would have him put in jail (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg57931#msg57931), while still refusing to identify himself (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg58330#msg58330) or even his nationality (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg57950#msg57950), apparently forgetting that he claimed he had already done so (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg56018#msg56018).

Mt. Gox added that since putting the money in his Mt. Gox account Baron has been withdrawing the maximum per day (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg58165#msg58165), and that logs of the standard bitcoin trade channel on IRC contain nothing like the alleged purchase (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3712.msg58342#msg58342) from "the real thief".

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And that's where we're up to now, 37 pages and a little over one week later.  I hope I was able to save some people the wade through all that.  I'll try to update it as anything new comes in so we can keep it out of this thread as much as possible, and hopefully save some people the dig through that one as well.  Took a good few hours out of my life, but better one person than everybody.  So to get the focus back on track, here is my own short and sweet description of my trust in Mt. Gox:

I had no prior relationship with anyone in the Bitcoin community when I joined it a couple months ago.  Every single Bitcoin I have purchased (not a fortune, but a decent amount) has been facilitated in one way or another by Mt. Gox.  I think that Jed has handled this difficult situation exceptionally well.  I don't feel at all that he's overstepped his boundaries.  To stand idly by while a thief made off with so much cash would have been unconscionable.  He's been fair, open, and the only thing anyone can say against him is that he doesn't spend his whole life on the internet.  Thank goodness he's actually running the business part of the time!  Baron is working his story as hard as he can, but it doesn't begin to match up.  If Mt. Gox was acting in the least bit unfair toward him it would have been a massive risk that an unknown Mt. Gox user turn out to be a respected member of the community, or the planet, who could destroy Mt. Gox's reputation in a heartbeat.  Instead we have a nameless, faceless username just trying to stir up trouble because he got caught.  I won't begin to give him the satisfaction.

End result?  I pretty much trust Mt. Gox hands down.  I'll trust the exchange with my money and identity, my respect, and with an important role in the future of the Bitcoin community at this crucial time.  I would firmly recommend it to any new or old user of Bitcoin as reliable and trustworthy.  That's the takeaway from this thing--tested and found true.

Go Mt. Gox!  I'm behind you!!  This incident just proves how hard you work to do your job, and I'm greatly indebted to you for it.  Here's to a long and bright future for both you and Bitcoin itself, despite anybody else's attempts.


Sincerely,
eMansipater

I picked "other" because while I trust strongly that mtgox will not screw me or other honest traders on his own I worry that he will be willing in the future to comply with third parties concerning our accounts. So far there is not much evidence for this, he hasn't tried any KYC stuff which is a good sign. He does have a $1000/day restriction which I believe is based on his understanding of some regulation from some government. I don't have a problem with the rule; I can see already how it has saved some money from fraud. But I'm concerned about what will happen if a government that he considers himself subject to writes down that bitcoins must be destroyed or some nonsense like that.

Maybe he does have more loyalty to justice than to governments, but that isn't clear to me.

Concerning Baron's case, well done imo.

I've done business with mtgox three times now - twice using paxum, once via write transfer. I have been completely satisfied each time.

I trust him, but at the same time some clear terms would be nice.

I personally don't know much about mtgox and base my trust mostly upon others experience. In other words, I trust him as an honest guy. However I do not believe that he is running a legal business (following all required laws). I do not blame him for this, but I think his site is constantly at very high risk from authorities all across the world where he is operating (bank accounts). I can imagine one or several of his bank accounts being frozen eventually, and that could lead to the loss of our money, or a large part of it anyway. On top of that there has been several security breaches. I currently trust him with a 4-digit amount and I think I could trust him with a small 5-digit if a substential amount was stored as bitcoins (this is just based on a wild guess that mtgox will not let bitcoin-holders suffer if bank accounts are frozen).

In summary, I trust mtgox as an honest guy, but I don't think his business will be left alone forever.

+1 mtgox

You say this:



And then go on to explain the whole case.

How does MtGox track BTC and why should he care?  They went from one account to another, the hows and whys don't matter.

So from the above quote:

I don't know MtGox, I have not tried to find out who he is, but wouldn't seem to be that hard. What I do know is that by his own admission, he froze an account due to suspicious activity determined by HIM.

Scenerio:

   If I stole $9,000 dollars from one bank, store, person, whatever and deposited the money into a bank account, the bank doesn't care or want to know where I got the money (Exception: in the U.S. if you deposit more than $10,000 they won't ask you anything but they are required to report the xaction, I think it is Title X Laws). This is why alot of the proffessional launders do $8,000, 9,000,  or maybe even $9,999.99 but thats obvious.

  And if later I want to take out the $9,000 dollars there is again no questions asked. They will verify who I am, and pay me. They never ask where I got the money. Or prove to me how you got the money.  The ID part is irrelevant here; but what if Baron did send a scanned passport to MtGox. Would MtGox release the money. I doubt it. How do you verify the passport info? You can't.

So a guy on the otherside of the world, will have to show up at MtGox, Inc in the USA to satisfy the dispute. I can get you scanned copies of passports all day long.

Law Enforcement freezes accounts, not banks.  PayPal does it but report the activity to law enforcement and request details. It hurts their business too.

It looks like someone needs to open the Xchange in Switzerland or the Cayman Islands to avoid all the minutia.

Hell, illegal sites shy away from freezing money (i.e. all the gambling sites that cater to the U.S. are illegal but they don't ask where you got the money from, and they give it back pretty quickly) Why? Because it is good for business.


In conclusion:

Personally I would want to trust MtGox but questions and actions have raised an eyebrow.

If MtGox wants to operate as a business, legitimately, then fine:

Provide an Name, Address, Phone Number, Email, Incorporation Data, etc....  Then MtGox will be on the road to legitimacy.


Anyway Hope it gets resolve because these service will be needed for success of the BitCoin, but as of now I am leaning towards a NO on MtGox.

Just so you know, many of us here are anarchists, and care not one whit whether or not any state considers mtgox to be a "legitimate" business. So while that may be a concern for you, don't assume that it is a concern for anybody else.

edit... In fact, my trust in mtgox would be lower if he became "legitimate", almost entirely because I do not trust any states to act in a way that is good for me and my money.

Issue; if you are anarchist you wouldn't want any form of state, be it an organized state as we do have normally, or mtgox's state.

I don't care for this specific issue, I care for overall damage on BTC, being mtgox the core of BTC exchanging any damage to mtgox roundabout to damage the community. This Baron vs mtgox shouldn't be taken place here in the bitcoin core.
Void threats with "I unleash my lawyers at you (and they're rabid)" and so on...  >:(

My answer:

Quite a bit:  I think there are probably some details to work out and changes to make, but we're getting there.

Mtgox's behavior is certainly annoying, but i still do trust him as an exchanger.

@wb3 the content in the first post is just direct quotes and summaries, all linked back so you can read it yourself without going through the whole thread for hours.  Your conclusion is bang on topic, the scenario bit might be better served in the big thread.  Up to you and everybody else to decide, but just as a suggestion.  There are lots of relevant responses to it(if you're interested in what I mean I'll happily expand in another thread) but my preference is not to clutter up this topic with them.


@vladimir definitely!!!

The anarchist bit I understand.

But if you do not know MtGox, and EXPECT no recourse through legal means, why would you give money to him.  You would trust him less if he was legitimate, huh...    So by being illegitimate you trust him more...  And you don't personally know him... Yea that is an anarchist...

 An anarchist with no money.

I think I trust him more than Baron, but Baron isn't operating an exchange. MtGox is.

Lets assume Baron stole the Money, why does MtGox care?, and if he recovers the money from Baron's account, what is he going to do with it? How is he going to get it back to its rightful owners? Can that even be done?  Is MtGox going to keep it for himself?

I know one thing for sure, even the anarchist like their money. But if you really want to cause havoc, just send all your money to:

1BRsTuYvGB5ALSTuk7GXb8R5kkW5j9ic3C

I would advise everybody to be VERY CAREFUL when discussing with wb3.
He registered just today, and many of his posts are in mtgox-related threads.

He is highly likely to be Baron's alter ego. If that is the case, he will be manipulating everybody to lower their trust in mtgox.


Hey, are you Baron by any chance ?

Details like this very much off topic.  Keep it in the other thread.

Well, one thing about a bitcoin exchange plateform is that you can easily get your bitcoins back, right?

Right now I'm in the process of funding my MtGox account for the first time.  Hopefully I'll be able to get my bitcoins as soon as I buy them right? 

However, I remember having heard about a 45 days delay.  Does it still exist?  I hope not.  Moreover, if I recall correctly, this delay was due to paypal reversal possibility, and I founded my account with a bank wire.  So I guess there is no reason why there should be a delay for me.

@wb3

So will you answer me ? Are you Baron or not ?
How long will you keep me waiting ? I can see that you are online...

If you think the state endorsed banking system will let you keep money under suspicion of theft, you are sorely mistaken. Your accounts will be frozen and unless you can answer all questions to the satisfaction of the police, you will never see your money again. In fact, suspicion of illegal activity isn't even necessary in order for your money to be stolen by the police. There have been many cases in the U.S. where an individual traveling with a large amount of cash, absent any indicators of illegal activity, had their money seized by the government.

A state is an entity with a monopoly on the use of force in a geographical area. It uses violence, or the threat thereof, in order to extract money from those living within its borders, in order to provide services that may be unwanted.

Mtgox can only take my money if I agree to exchange his services for my money.

As you can see, mtgox is nothing like a state.

I doubt you truly do.

He offers a service that is useful to me, at a price I find reasonable. I trust him based on his reputation, which is earned, unlike a state granted license.

You don't understand. I consider the state to be illegitimate. Anyone who rejects the state gains legitimacy in my eyes. Not yours, but mine.

The money was stolen while placed in his care. His business's reputation is at stake. Let's say you had 9000 BTC in your mtgox account and it was stolen. Would you continue to do business with him if he just said "too bad" and let the thief get away with the money?

I find this outcome highly unlikely. Again, his reputation is on the line. Why would he risk it?

Sorry I was doing some research.  

No, I am not Baron.  Baron was an idiot. I don't have to much sympathy for him.  My concern it the Xchange. There needs to be one, and one that follows accepted rules.  I hope MtGox can be trusted. That is the question. Most people or services for xchange care little for where the money comes from. They just want the fees for the xchange.  

Baron didn't put himself up as a service, he just used a service.  What is to be decided is if the service operates fairly amongst all BTC xchangers.

I am interested in an Xchange, so I am looking into the MtGox thing.  Regeristered in Brooklyn,NY, USA servers in Dallas,TX etc...  associtated with edonkey etc...  

If I give him or them a $1000.00 USD, I want to know "who" to blame if something goes wrong with the xchange.

Because I can tell you one thing, If it was my 45,000 USD, he wouldn't need my passport. We would be talking face to face, mono et mono.  If he ask where I got the money, it would be none of his business. If he expects its criminal then Prove it.

So no, I am not Baron.  Because if I was and if the fee for transfers are 1% or whatever, I would have xferred $10.00 at a time. The fee would be the same. Baron was a fool.

I trust Mt. Gox quite a bit.  I deal with him 2-3 times each week depositing large amounts to my account there.  Mt. Gox has always been responsive and based on my dealings I am persuaded that it's as honest a Bitcoin business as there is.  Mt. Gox handled the PayPal account problems last fall and the recent baron business respectably.  In both cases, his response increased my trust in him.

Of course you were.


Why do you keep emphasizing that he was stupid ?
Are you a newer, better, upgraded version of Baron 2.0 or what ?

Will your scams be far superior to Baron's ones ?


1. Hmmmm.... Talking almost as if you knew him, you are.
Suspicious it is, indeed.

2. If you don't have too much sympathy, then you have SOME sympathy after all. Is that correct ?

Shadow, please give up this witch hunt. There's no evidence to show that wb3 and Baron are related in any way, and I don't think constant accusations are going to do the Bitcoin community any good.

Please, please stop this behavior. It's not helping anybody.

Oh, don't worry i am just having some fun :)
OK, enough.

Lets assume Baron stole the Money, why does MtGox care?
The money was stolen while placed in his care. His business's reputation is at stake. Let's say you had 9000 BTC in your mtgox account and it was stolen. Would you continue to do business with him if he just said "too bad" and let the thief get away with the money?


If someone robs your bank tomorrow and steals the money out of your account, does the bank take money from other customer's that were "suspected" in the crime.

No, they eat the loss and try to catch the criminal. If they can't oh, well.  They eat the loss and maybe install a better "vault".


Scammer I am not. Anonymity at times is important to me. At others it is not. In this case, anyone who can look at the logs at this site will find that I am not trying to hide my identity.  I am from the U.S.  and have some ideas for the BitCoin.

For example:  It looks like a double blind escrow service would look good. Each sends it in the funds, each agrees on trade, and send an OK for the xfer to occur.  With PGP this shouldn't be to hard. Looking into varying ideas.

I used mtgox for a while when I was speculating on bitcoin. Now that career is over, I don't use mtgox.

I'll stand up for wb3. His command of English is far too good to be Baron.

As for Gox, I trust him enough to do an occasional buy/sell of some bitcoins, but I do not trust him enough to keep any funds in his control for more than a few minutes. Let me point to one big Eve scam (there's probably more) as an example.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=381340

Gox could one day close all accounts and there would be absolutely nothing any of you could do about it.

Let's assume that you are not for now, but i will be watching you.

Closely.

Hopefully your a girl, then.  Hate to think some dude is "Watching" me. 


I must say at least this forum is pretty active and lively with a little paranoia tossed in to make it interesting.

Money for Nothing and your chicks for free,  whole new meaning.

Hahaha good, good :]
I am now certain that you are not Baron.

I think Jed is a good, honest administrator. He's eaten a lot of costs, even though he probably makes very little money from the site. However, I have never trusted the software or concept of MtGox, and I will never store loads of money there.

That is a practical answer, without all the diatribe.

I don't think it would have been an issue except for the amounts he froze (or whatever).
 People don't forget those amounts and let it slide.

While I don't personally know him, I can't personally vouch for him.  It sounds like there might have been an exploit and he tried self help to resolve the issue.  If self help means he and friends get to keep the money, is where the issue lies.

The only place i will ever store large number of Bitcoins are the encrypted hard drives of my built-from-source-Linux comp behind 2 firewalls, sandboxes & virtual machines.
I will not trust any exchanger or bank to keep my money for too long.

But merchants are useful for trading & mixing coins though.

woah, so Jed is of the eDonkey fame? motherfucking hero. I remember that software being the centre piece of my life as a kid.

Seriously ? I had no idea.
This is an awesome thing.

The money was allegedly stolen from MtGox and MtGox accounts.

Ive done a few transactions with mt gox with no problems and he is always responsive.

Its not mot gox I am worried about its the fear that bitcoin itself will be targeted and the exchanges will be the first target - egold is one example.

The trouble with legitimate businesses  is that  the state can play wedge politics by pitting tax paying ones against those who dont pay. Look for example at the current situation with amazon where they refuse to pay state sales taxes and in state companies are working with the government to make amazon pay the same when in reality its the government they should be blaming. So because amazon has a 10 per cent margin it creates envy and a bad incentive.

They tried to shut down P2P technologies (bittorrent) before and they failed.
If they start shutting down exchanges, we either move to other countries, or we will use web of trust - based exchanges.

P2P is the only thing that they cannot control at all (yet). It is like a hydra. When you cut one head, 3 new grow in its place.

Does anybody still doubt that we are witnessing an ongoing revolution thanks to the Internet ? Perhaps even the largest in the history of mankind.
We must not let Internet be harmed and controlled by governments, and we will be victorious.

I think that (in large part due to Bitcoin existence) free thinking & real, total personal freedom may rule the world soon.

Im not worried about the protocol its the human factor which is vulnerable. Hopefully we can emerge through the fire without losing people.

Despite having only transferred one test BTC in (and out) of mtgox, Jed has answered my emails from when I first heard about "that cryptocurrency thing" within 24 hours, despite my lack of jargon to use and the confusion that caused. I think there are some details that need to be worked out, but that's true with everything that is getting off the ground.

I'm excited to see where this goes, and I hope mtgox can stick around for the future.

Witch! Witch! Burn the witch!

These are serious accusations in a community built on trust. I hope you have more to back that up than a half-assed hunch.

+1
https://i.imgur.com/Umwdt.jpg

WoW, alter ego. Hmm...

Yea, Ok,  It couldn't be that I just found out about BitCoin from Steve Gibson got interested, started to check it out, decided to look at an Xchange to IRL USD, and found this very interesting thread with $45,000 USD plot with frozen account, servers that disappear in the middle of the night, suggestions of the Law involved, and am curious about the outcome before I try out the Xchange. It couldn't be that possibility, nahh ....  

Instead lets use Occam's Razor:  I am an alter ego of the Baron. From the Nigerian connection, yeah... that fits better.  It does add to the drama....  

Or how about this one:  I am a pissed of Aaron Barr from HBGary using Persona Management software to try to get back $45,000 dollars from the shady underground because I am now unemployed with no hopes of Re-employment and probably getting divorced and the wife is going to take everything so I really, really need the Money. And Bank of America won't give me a loan.

Yeah,,,, that one is better.   ;D

Is there a term for Narcissistic Paranoids...... yeah...  they are called Shadow'sofHarbringer  Sorry but you deserved it...

Why so serious ?

http://im.in.com/media/blish/7/photos/2009/May/i53_heybeetlejuicedorisjokerfunnydemotivationalposter1231432214090515120146_515x343.jpg

It took me less than two minutes to verify that this is true, something I did the first day I saw that stupid $45000 thread.

Because you're completely out of line. Arbitrarily denouncing people like you and some others have done is, in my view, extremely poor behaviour. I for one will not soon forget that. In fact, once all this dies down, I think a summary of what has passed should be attempted, and I think too that the more egregious, baseless accusations should be listed and the authors called out on them.

As for the subject of this thread, I have a fair amount of trust in Mt Gox as far as him acting in good faith goes. He's had the opportunity to scam me out of some cash and has not done so, and overall seems to conduct his trade with integrity.

This does not mean I trust his abilities in dispute resolution, though. I simply do not have enough history to make any judgement on whether or not he is capable and fair in such matters. The outcome of the current dispute will be important in determining my opinion on that. 

If you went into a bank and transferred USD 100 from an account to yours, signed with a false signature, and this was noticed by the bank after you left, your account would be locked at once.  No waiting for law enforcement to catch up.  Believe me.
Swiss banks locks accounts on suspicion.  High profile cases lately is Mubarak in Egypt and Gadaffi in Libya.
If I suspected MtGox of being illegal or endorsing illegal activities, I would keep far away from it!

Perhaps it is, but "bad behavior" is certainly much better option than being manipulated by alter ego of some Nigerian scammer.

First, they manipulate you.
Second, they steal your money.

So i think that "bad behavior" is low price for detecting lies & scammers. I couldn't have done that without little psychology & white-hat sociotechnics.

Ooo....  Ooo....  I am waving my hands over a bubbling pot.... Hex... Hex.... Toil... and Trouble......

Manipulate... Manipulate... 

Didn't know I had the power, thanks for giving it to me....

I had promised not to make another post in the other thread until you called me an alter ego again....   Thanks Now I can continue....

A little chess with Human Behavior,,,  I knew you would do it, paranoids can't stop... Once they get an idea in their head... it sticks like glue. 

Here a little riddle:

  I have been to Nigeria: but am not Nigerian. (actually been to lots of West Africa)
  I have been to India: but not Indian (recommend the Mango Masala ..yum)
  I have been to France: but not French (not cracked up to what its supposed to be)
  I have been to Bahrain: but not Muslim (*) (Dubai, Abu Dabi, etc...) ( Cheap Music $1.. Including Heavy Metal, those hypocrites )
  I know a Baron: but am not The Baron (keep the Garlic around)
 
  Who am I?


Now as far as what I know, I now know who and where to go to look for, (if I lost my money (large amount anyways)).

NexisLexis baby, NexisLexis...

But I am more interested in the conclusion of the debacle. It is a book.

Was there even money?  If so, where did it come from?  Who gets to keep it?  Why do "they" get to keep it?  Is it going to be "Taxed"?
Why did Servers Switch? Was it done to get rid of logs? Was it compromised? What next?  and Hey, I get to play along again. Thnx.

It goes on and on,
 

Hey, I wasn't and I am not saying that you are Baron anymore, you misunderstood.

I just commented what happened before...

emansipator: thanks so much for summing up that crazy thread! you saved me hours!

as for my trust in Mt.Gox: yes, I trust him quite a bit. He's responsive to email and the money I wired him once showed up in my account on time.

I actually trust him more to not rip me off than I trust my traditional bank, which I know is ripping me off ;)

You're very welcome, and a big thanks to those of you who sent in tips--the number of tips means a lot more than the value to me; whether it's .01 or 5 they definitely brighten my day!

Its not mt gox's trustworthiness we should be questioning imo.

In my mind this thread is largely a reaffirmation of trust--just look at the poll.

I agree.

I wonder if you worded it the same but replaced mt gox with other agents in the drama what the result would be ....

You are correct, the poll is ridicuously rigged.
Manipulation to the extreme.

I will start a new, better poll.

I have created a new, neutral & approximately objective poll.

Come and vote now:
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4161.0

lol--great read!  Of course, as an aside, I wasn't trying to create an objective rubric of broad utility here.  Just picked the most common positions I saw being asserted in the black hole thread and posted them here so they'd be on one page instead of all throughout, careful to put in the last option in case I had missed big segments.  The options thus reflect the fact that generally speaking Mt. Gox is a trusted member of the bitcoin community, although I'm pretty disappointed that Baron didn't bother to choose the first option for us after all that going on about it in the other thread.

I'd love to see the +/- trust poll (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4161.0) done on bitcoin in general, other bitcoin businesses and exchanges, etc.  Although it does put the options into a full range of trust instead of just a few common responses, it also leaves out the why's such as "bitcoin is new and unproven" vs "specifically because mt. gox is doing something wrong".  In that respect I think this poll does a lot better at providing a community counterpoint to the whole Baron thing.

This is the best part of your post though--since you're the one who came up with the thread name.  I love it! :)

I knew someone had suggested it, but I didn't know it was vlad. Brilliant!

Back on-topic: I had an interesting run-in with MtGox today. I transferred $1000 to Liberty Reserve a couple days ago, yet it never arrived. The transaction history on MtGox showed the transfer though, and the $1000 were neither on MtGox nor on Liberty Reserve. When I found this out I was pretty paranoid, thinking MtGox stole my money etc. etc. I e-mailed MtGox for clarification, and within the hour I got an e-mail back, saying that LR rejected the transaction for some reason, and that they transferred it to my account. Which they did, so all's well that ends well.

Things I will keep to heart from this encounter:

• MtGox / LR software is not perfect. Things can and will go wrong.
• There is definitely potential to lose money either by human or technological error.
• Despite the previous comments, the human(s) behind MtGox replied very quickly and have been extremely professional in their handling of these cases. As long as no change occurs in people managing the site or the bitcoin economy, I trust MtGox.

FYI, there is a new, neutral & approximately objective poll.

Come and vote/discuss there now:
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4161.0

yeah, you already posted (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4065.msg60307#msg60307) on the other page.