Bitcoin Forum

He owes a lot of us money and he owes me over 40 BTC worth of goods. Now, I could easily accept my loss and call it a day but I want to this man to be made an example of. I really wish to demonstrate our intolerance of thieves in the Bitcoin community, especially through the greatest thief so far.

The administration has this gentleman's IP logged and I highly doubt he's under 7 proxies. Let's get his IP, subpoena an address and claim our money back through the means of justice at our disposal. Let's reduce the likelihood of this ever happening again.

Well he did tell me he was in NewYork. So that narrows down your area of search to....

Using cops and statist force?

 :o
/me ducks.

Inform the cyber police. Consequences will never be the same ! ;P

No, seriously: Don't lend money to gambling addicted.

And: with a low-reputation user, insist that they deliver first before you send bitcoins.

Then, there's no need to find out where people live.

What kind of example do you have in mind? That he loses his bed and becomes homeless? That a lawyer and judge get some work?

I today sent him paypal request for 8 btc which he owes me.
I had transaction with him on 8 th feb 2011 for 20 & 30 PPUSD for 22 & 34 bitcoins.
& after that he asked a loan of 22, then ......after a lot of request i gave 8 bitcoins.
I received paypal from this email address greg@madcashdash.com & he replied for my request from this email greg@glpbucks.com
& his name seems greg art, its mentioned in paypal transaction.
If anyone know any details please share.

/me sigh for people who loans BTC to people with low reputation

The guy is a gambling addict... do we really need to make his life any worse? I mean, he uses email addresses from two of those skeezy "cash for completing offers" sites.

He's made my life pretty bad by stealing my 40 BTC.

When did this happen to you? Where's the 40 BTC is sent? Is it sent to the bankruptcy funds?

If dishwara's information is correct, then he runs those two skeezy "cash for completing offers" sites, plus one more not listed, and maybe more beyond that.

This is the info from the domain registrations:

      Art, Greg  gregart@bellsouth.net
      1322 Briarwood Drive
      Rockledge, Florida 32955
      United States
      +1.3214035822      Fax --

Excellent, excellent. Thank you.

Small claims court, here we come.

The 10th of Febuary was when the payment was sent.

This is the address: 135eMjuGfRUSbwzphGsZLixYLHd2kYHNeG

I don't believe so.

Well, I will no longer do any business in the future with you.

Enjoy your idealism. I want my 40 BTC back. It's not my fault the state has a monopoly on civil force.

Idealism?  ???

I am spooked by your actions.

That I would take somebody to court to reclaim my property?

I'm with kiba on this.

Why don't you make use of your new-found knowledge about Stevenbucks to see if this is enough to persuade him to repay you?

I have to back Atlas up on this. Even in anarcho-capitalist societies there will be courts, the only difference here is that there is no competition so likely there is very little efficiency.

Probably more worth his time than actually dealing with the courts, but how anyone can be against him trying to get his stuff back is beyond me.

I eat up my loss and move on. You go sue somebody.

I can't do business with somebody who would sue in anger.

I'm sorry but I highly doubt you will get anything, first I don't know where you live but unless you can show your state has jurisdiction over him you will most likely have to travel to Florida.  When you get there if he shows up you'll have a hell of a time convincing a judge that he owes you any money at all, along with how much.  If he doesn't show up you MIGHT get a default judgement.  Even if you somehow convince the judge that they are worth $1 each you get a judgement for $40 you pay a filing fee of maybe $25.  After you get the judgement good luck getting the $40 as well it could take a LONG time and money to find a way to get your money from the $40 judgement.

Courts are good. In a Voluntarist society there will be courts. But courts backed by violence are bad. In a voluntarist society there will not be courts backed by violence.

If someone invokes the force of the state, they strengthen the power of the state by doing so, and they must not be surprised when that power is turned against them (or against Bitcoin) in the future.

If people focus their energy on dispute avoidance, the power of the state is diminished and the force of the state is less likely to be turned against them in the future.

This is a matter of tradeoff. If you trust every joe, bob, and dick off the street and rely on the courts to compensate for your losses than there will be much violence in the world. On the other hand, if you're careful and eat your losses, than there will be little conflict in the world.

All law rests on the use of coercion/force. What you are saying is pure Tolstoyan-pacifist fantasy. What matters is what sort of actions are essentially "human" or part of the process of societal cooperation and which are not, then how those which are not should be treated.

Whether he uses state courts or not is irrelevant. He does so in self-defense, since the state claims a monopoly over this area (the whole world in fact). I do urge him to only use state courts as a threat, but if one has to resort to it there is nothing wrong with it per se.

I don't care about the state. I don't care where it might go. All I have control of is my own identity and property to the extent that I can afford. All I can afford is a crooked monopoly. I will accept what I can get.

I am not going to grow a neckbeard and make my life a pain in the ass because I will only use "free" means.

This thread:

http://www.oreillynet.com/oscon2002/graphics/jc5_01.jpg

Well, your choice; my non-cooperation.

I might lose some potential products and services from you in the future. However, I prefer to retain the tangible I have now.

Although I feel for you how can you prove that
      
      Art, Greg  
      gregart@bellsouth.net
      1322 Briarwood Drive
      Rockledge, Florida 32955
      United States
      +1.3214035822      Fax --

Is the one you lent money I have no problem actively pursuing what is yours but this brings up another problem you could be suing a completely random person.  You would have to of coure prove that he is the person in question as well only chance you have is him not showing up.

I am just going to phone him. The court fee is $35.

Well I wish you luck Atlas not meaning to be critical but I was in a similar situation where I was out about $2,500 I spent $800 more and nothing to show for it so be careful.

: (

Thank you.

Is this out of principle or the real deal?
My feeling is that it is going to take up time to go file a small claim. for 40 bucks? You can make that in a few hours work or much much less and maybe provide some value in the process to someone.

Sounds like an absolute waste of time and resonates with anger? This calibrates to less than 175 on Hawkins Scale of Consciousness (http://www.amazon.com/Power-vs-Force-Determinants-Behavior/dp/1561709336).

In the long run, such a state of mind is destructive and will bring you more and more trouble.

One can try courage and empowerment and this will yield far greater results for you and everyone else.
http://www.your-emotional-wellness.com/PowerVsForce.html

You are free to do whatever you feel like though,

let us know how it goes and how much your time ends up being worth at the end.

I am going to read this book but I am skeptical about organisms changing the supposed "energy" levels around them. Sounds like potential pseudo-science to me.

Courts are always backed by violence, though not explicitly. In the customary Somali law, the Xeer, you are backed by a group of people, usually familial but not necessarily. This group of people insures you and promises to help that person out. If you break the law, it is almost always a fine you must pay. Your family group will pay the fine for you, if you can't pay yourself. If you abuse this, they can kick you out and you are uninsured. This means that nobody will come to your aid, and thus are essentially an outlaw, or someone not protected by the laws, and for your own safety it is a good idea to leave.

I'm a political nihilist so therefore I don't really have any preference. Things will get better as we allow our current systems to fail. I am not going to let my subjective preferences or anybody elses eliminate the practical.

My actions are necessary practical.

You think you can change things. You think you can directly change people through your boycott.

I think Atlas is the one we should be making an example of. No sane person would lend money to a random stranger, a gambling addict no less.

I, for one, hope you don't get your 40 BTC back and learn a valuable lesson instead.

In my defense, I had no knowledge of Stevenbucks past when I made the transaction. It was only afterwords that his past was revealed to this board.

However, I should of certainly did some research before the transaction..

As consolation, one could argue that learning not to lend money to people you don't trust 100% is more valuable than 40 BTC, so in fact you ended up profiting.

I didn't lend any money. I ordered two Zipit Z2s. Never received them.

Well clearly I don't have the whole story and have no idea what I'm talking about.

Don't degrade yourself. You're fine.

Not degrading myself, I just thought you gave money to some random guy who came asking for some. If you were only buying stuff from a trader then it obviously changes my opinion of your iq level.

No way it's fantasy. I apply it successfully in my own working life.

I own a web research business. We offer an automated refund process for any customer who is not satisfied. All they do is click a link and they get their money back, no questions asked.

Of course we get the occasional jerk who exploits this by taking the work we do, then clicking "refund" to get their money back, and running away. But this is less than 0.5% of the turnover. We don't resort to the courts. We just refuse to have anything to do with the rogue customer again.

And you know what? The regular customers appreciate it. They like how we don't hold their cash hostage, and they like it that if they're not satisfied they can get their money back without having to grovel or threaten. It makes everything more satisfying for them, and for us too.

So no, the pacifist approach is not fantasy. It's good business, and good karma too.

I'm a kid with barely a working life. I have time to screw on a lawsuit. If I was a sovereign individual, maybe I would be less inclined. Anyways, I am not going through with it. I am giving the man a phone call.

It's not fantasy. I apply it successfully in my own working life.

I own a web research business. We offer an automated refund process for any customer who is not satisfied. All they do is click a link and they get their money back, no questions asked.

Of course we get the occasional jerk who exploits this by taking the work we do, then clicking "refund" to get their money back, and running away. But this is less than 0.5% of the turnover. We don't resort to the courts. We just refuse to have anything to do with the rogue customer again.

And you know what? The regular customers appreciate it. They like how we don't hold their cash hostage, and they like it that if they're not satisfied they can get their money back without having to grovel or threaten. It makes everything more satisfying for them, and for us too.

So no, the pacifist approach is not fantasy. It's good business, and good karma too.

This isn't about changing people. This is about risk management. Anybody who sue people in anger is a business risk.

I see. Fair enough.

Well, I am not going through with it, if that has any relevance.

If people think bitcoins are only used to scam people they will avoid it .

As for stevenbucks karma will be a bitch. I have a feeling he has a very unfortunate life and still lives in his mom's basement.

It's Florida. They don't HAVE basements.

This has far bigger ramifications than you think. If people think they cant even trade under 10 bitcoins without being ripped off they wont touch bitcoin . People are very skittish about that .

If everyone just points and laughs as scumbags rip people off and blame the victims for it I think that is a very sad indictment of the community.

In a case of repeated predatory behaviour like this some self defensive actions are required. Im not talking about public humiliation but private justice. You rip off a company in the physical world they send in repo men to take all your shit. Its about making the victims whole not putting someone in stocks in the public square.

I am sure the legal system is empathetic towards bitcoin.  ::)

Time may be the most precious thing in life. To the court system, though, USD reigns. If you are as young as you say, you most likely cannot afford to fund a lawsuit.

There is only a $35 filing fee for small claims. It's not worth it though. If Stevenbucks can't realize the theft he has done through his own reasoning mind, not much can be gained by taking him to court. I wish the man happiness. That's all I really want to see.

Most likely he will be back under a different username. And he will rip off more people.

What do we do to prevent THAT ?

I would like to see him found and warned off for that reason only.

Use clearcoin?

Seriously, use your brain and don't trust users with no reputation too much. Don't just loan bitcoin nilly willy without doing a credit history check.

Isn't it too much to ask people to take basic precaution in economic exchange over the internet?

Well, he owes other people larger sums of money, I believe. You can try convincing them.

Frankly, it wasn't my money to begin with. I probably stole it myself from my parent's funds. I certainly didn't earn it, to say the least. I have no business making a fuss. I'm a hypocrite. Nearly a fraud myself.

I agree with you.

...but vengeance can be a novel pleasure sometimes. The novel doesn't have to be rationalized.

You just lost 99% of consumers.

...but we're not in the 99%. At least we can embrace the reality.

Doesnt mean we should be preyed on by humans with no ethics. Consequences = modified behaviour.

I views these actions as necessary cost of doing business. That's the downside of dealing with anonymous individuals.

You're talking with a man who goes by no concept of objective ethics but by only a certain strain of subjective preferences you may call morality. I have very little influence over who may prey upon me and others in the scheme of things, considering freewill, chaos theory and all. Heck, I wonder even if this perception of reality is worth a damn. All I can do is manage my own individual risk. That's what I go by and probably Kiba goes by.

Using Google Voice (yeah, yeah, i know, Google is the big brother etc etc) you won't pay anything to call him if you got his landline number.


Who knows, might have been just a filling mishap and he will mail you another one of that thing you tried buying from him at no cost.

This is a funny thread,

Let me see if I got this all down,

Atlas ordered a Zip from Stevenbucks by paying him 40 BTC, Stevebucks doesn't send the product, Atlas gets pissed and starts this thread titled: We need to find where Stevenbucks lives. Kind of a scary thread title, sort of sounded like a hit order going out to the gang.

The Hit order would have been cool, but alas; just going to sue him for 40 BTC  

I feel for you Atlas, you have been ripped off. May I ask, did you actually pay for your BTC with USD.  

I wonder how many BTC it would take for the Hit Order.  

How about instead of suing him, we put a Hit Order (just use paintballs) out on him. Have it video taped and posted.

I bet you would get a lot of takers for say: 500 BTC  and it would be so much better than suing him, wouldn't ya agree.

Exactly. So as a community we should build ways of transacting that minimise the risk of scams, rather than building a culture that says "yeah you're likely to get scammed with bitcoin, but you can always try to get it back through the courts, good luck with that".

The way Bitcoin works is very different to what people are used to when they transact with credit cards. It's also very different from making a cash purchase in a shop where you get a receipt, and the same shop is likely to be in the same place if you want to find it again to sort out a problem. So different ways of transacting are needed.

ClearCoin (https://clearcoin.appspot.com/) is a great step in the right direction, although I haven't used it yet myself because neither party has wanted to carry the cost. But it's free under 100 BTC, so it's ideal for things like Atlas's purchases.

Can't you scam the seller by not releasing the bitcoins?

Yes, you can get away with this once, but then your action can be displayed for all to see.

Nothing in the world is totally scam-proof. Even the state court system is manipulated for private gain sometimes (e.g. Lord Archer's case).

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I sleep very well at night :)

EDIT: Read the whole thread. You didn't loan the money. Carry on  ;D

i wouldn't be to sure that you're chasing the right guy, he seems to use different identities for several domains.
info i gathered so far:

happy hunting.

To throw my .02BTC in this is golden advice. For 40BTC it's not worth it even if it's more than that it usually isn't worth the time, money, and aggravation. Also, some small claims have a dollar amount floor that is required before you can file suit. To throw one more wrench into the equation even if you do prove you have jurisdiction over him in court(by saying he was offering business services in your state) and file suit in your state, Florida does not usually recognize out of state default judgements as a matter of policy which is why those with lots of credit problems usually hide out there and wait.

Thats the correct info.
 8)


Is this him ?

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1032197040 (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1032197040)

Clearcoin now supports sending unreleased coins to a charity instead of refunding them, which gives both buyer and seller the same incentives.