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Title: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: hendo420 on January 12, 2014, 07:50:31 PM Instamining(defined by me because its not in the dictionary): Launching a coin at low difficulty with the normal block reward and having a weeks worth of blocks mined in 20 minutes leaving only a few lucky miners with a ton of coins while the rest are left with a high difficulty and low amount of coins.
This happens with nearly every new coin launch and it must STOP. Here is what normally happens. A new coin launches called Fcoin. Miner A has 5mh/s and starts mining Fcoin at launch. It is an instamine. He makes 500,000 coins at a difficulty of 0.002 or less in the span of about 10 minutes. Miner B has 5mh/s and likes the new Fcoin but is finding out about it 30 minutes after launch. He gets on and mines for the next 3 days and mines only 5,000 coins. All of the Miner B's push Fcoin to an exchange because they think it has promise and that other people will want to buy it. When it gets to the exchange it gets some cryptocoin buyers attention and they put up multiple Bitcoin buy orders. Some as high as 0.0001btc per coin. Miner A is a pro and he watches the exchanges like a hawk so of course he notices the minute it goes to an exchange. He then waits until those big buy orders are set up. Then he Dumps all 500,000 Fcoins on the exchange dropping the price to a fraction of what it was. Miner B misses the boat and feels screwed. I have seen this same situation happen on atleast 100 coins. Instamining hurts a coins long term potential and hurts its short term value as well. The way it should be done. Depending on your block time and difficulty retarget time and % up/down you will have to modify your coin to hit the sweet spot. Make the first so many coins a minimal block reward, something like 0.0001 This means that the network has time to reach its optimum block time before any blocks pay out and the 0.0001 allows miners to know that they are set up correctly to mine and the pools are working. This is done by going to the main.cpp file and adding a few lines. Code: if (nHeight < 1000) Code:
If every coin that launched followed this procedure I believe that we would not see as many coins becoming just pump&dump right out of the gate. If you agree with me can I get a HELL YEAH? Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: Aliencoin on January 12, 2014, 07:54:03 PM HELL YEAH! Aliencoin = 1000blocks which was reduced to 0.0001 for the initial launch and it returns to its original reward of 40.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0 Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: r47351 on January 12, 2014, 07:54:20 PM You are right but...crapcoin devs dont care about the instamining because they are the ones doing it in order to dump it. They're going to instamine/premine anyway and hope they can dump before anyone notices.
Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: duuuuude on January 12, 2014, 07:54:29 PM Hell Yeah,
if you have an Instamine as part of your coin setup, Your coin is already in trouble. if you have to have premine, Your coin is in serious serious trouble. j Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: kalus on January 12, 2014, 07:58:59 PM no.
In some cases, 0 premine results in no bounties, no promotion or project funding (e.g. wallets, pools, billboards, etc.). In other cases, 0 premine + instamining does result in bounties, promotion, and resource for project funding. If the dev cannot get hype for the coin during its launch, when it is most critical, they will never get interest for the coin later. it's dead on the vine if you cut off the initial interest. Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: dagi on January 12, 2014, 07:59:29 PM hendo420: i agree!
Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: duuuuude on January 12, 2014, 08:05:03 PM I have been part of many coins release that had no premine and many of them have succeeded, if you need alot of premine your already in alot of trouble.
and all that stuff about needing things, the developer should just mine like everyone else and use that for giveaways, that way no one can confuse their motivations. j Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: hendo420 on January 12, 2014, 08:09:54 PM I have been part of many coins release that had no premine and many of them have succeeded, if you need alot of premine your already in alot of trouble. and all that stuff about needing things, the developer should just mine like everyone else and use that for giveaways, that way no one can confuse their motivations. j Wanna guess how much Aliencoin I have mined since launch? 40.0087 total Its a good thing I'm not the one running the giveaways. Its a good thing the guy running Aliencoin has a small premine for giveaway/bountys because he tells me he hasn't mined any yet. So I guess I'm lucky ;D Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: markjamrobin on January 12, 2014, 08:13:54 PM Then problem with this, is many miners won't "tune-in" till after the adjustment period, because mining for .0001 block reward isn't as beneficial as doing it for 50.
Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: Scooby903 on January 12, 2014, 08:16:45 PM I partially agree...but HELL YEAH ;D
While it does lessen the impact of insta-mining, it does not alleviate it enough IMO. There is still a fair rush on mining as the block reward changes to it's higher level and this creates an "insta-mine" of sorts. I think having a step-up block reward would be a better option. Something like this: Blocks 1-100 = .00001 Blocks 101-200 = .0002 Blocks 201-300 = .004 Blocks 301-400 = .06 But just like you said, depending on your block time and difficulty retarget time and % up/down you will have to modify your coin to hit the sweet spot. Nobody wants to mine something with an incredibly low block reward only to be shat upon when the real rewards kick in and everybody jumps on it. Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: tokyoghetto on January 12, 2014, 08:20:02 PM Then problem with this, is many miners won't "tune-in" till after the adjustment period, because mining for .0001 block reward isn't as beneficial as doing it for 50. stablecoin did this type of launch and it worked perfectly...miners will still mine the coin even with low blocks. Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: hendo420 on January 12, 2014, 08:20:24 PM I partially agree...but HELL YEAH ;D While it does lessen the impact of insta-mining, it does not alleviate it enough IMO. There is still a fair rush on mining as the block reward changes to it's higher level and this creates an "insta-mine" of sorts. I think having a step-up block reward would be a better option. Something like this: Blocks 1-100 = .00001 Blocks 101-200 = .0002 Blocks 201-300 = .004 Blocks 301-400 = .06 But just like you said, depending on your block time and difficulty retarget time and % up/down you will have to modify your coin to hit the sweet spot. Nobody wants to mine something with an incredibly low block reward only to be shat upon when the real rewards kick in and everybody jumps on it. There are many ways to go about it but the end goal is the same. ;D Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: hendo420 on January 13, 2014, 04:42:04 AM bumped back to the first page because more ppl need to read this.
Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: CoinManiac on January 13, 2014, 04:49:28 AM Damn ri8 !! Instamined, then sell at lower prices. The end of the coin
Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: shai_ on January 13, 2014, 06:23:36 AM this doesn't solve anything
what if miner A have 700kh/s.. and miner B have 5Mh/s shouldn't miner A be awarded for being an early adopter ? over time miner B will still get a lot more than miner A... and will dump more (duh) people without lot of hashrate won't dump something that was so difficult to obtain.. usually with the low rewards at launch - people with low hashrate are out of the game completely. and the coin will be monopolized by the hashrate monsters but HELL YEAH anyway for trying to make things fair - but it won't solve anything :) Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: hendo420 on January 13, 2014, 07:44:26 AM this doesn't solve anything what if miner A have 700kh/s.. and miner B have 5Mh/s shouldn't miner A be awarded for being an early adopter ? over time miner B will still get a lot more than miner A... and will dump more (duh) people without lot of hashrate won't dump something that was so difficult to obtain.. usually with the low rewards at launch - people with low hashrate are out of the game completely. and the coin will be monopolized by the hashrate monsters but HELL YEAH anyway for trying to make things fair - but it won't solve anything :) If miner A and miner B both get on at launch. Miner B will cause Miner A to have a ton of orphans. Just the way it works with the blocks being solved so fast. Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: aelpop on January 13, 2014, 02:57:18 PM interesting , i learned alot from this subject
Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: b!z on January 28, 2014, 03:14:32 PM Great writeup. It explains clearly what I needed to know.
Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: Hazard on January 28, 2014, 03:19:23 PM Your premine was any better? ???
Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: evoked22 on January 28, 2014, 03:48:59 PM Thank you. You also included a how to guide for the code :)
I hope it is implemented with all coins. Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: MisO69 on January 28, 2014, 04:04:10 PM I agree with what you propose Hendo. But, why mine a new coin then? I think instamine is a necessary evil.
This is the way I see things. We have these older stable coins, WDC, MEC, DGC etc. That are worth 20cents ++. With my 10Mh I can get a fair amount of these. Why would I mine a brand new coin that is not on an exchange, has no value attached to it yet, only to get a handful of coins? I would rather just mine Worldcoin and gamble that sharmbeck will increase its price. Then dump when that happens. The thing that attracts miners to new coins is the instamine and the fact that early adopters can get a good amount of coins. If I can't do that then whats the point of using my expensive rigs on a worthless coin when there are many other options that give me some ROI. That being said, I am really picky as to which new coins I jump on. Premined coins are an automatic no for me, simply because there are existing options for this. If I can instamine a non-premined coin I may point my miners there for 12-24 hours the back to WDC. But only if I catch it on release. Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: maco on February 22, 2014, 07:14:12 AM Hendo is onto something everyone... Look at all these new coins popping out and community is losing money because they follow along the pump n dumps to gain money. The new Panda coin just whipped out the community and now here is my message to all of you... Hendo told you so... And 42 coin was a testiment to his theory.
Read my post about pandas community dump https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=460037.msg5294823#msg5294823 If Hendo and the team would have dumped 42. 42 would be at a much lower price and it would have dropped immediately. This is crazy guys... Hendo called this out and no one listened. Well, how about you now double check your calendar because there is a new wave of theory that is about to change the crypto game for good. Yes, that's 42 coin. Yes I am motivated to help 42 and I myself haven't dumped my coins either and I know a few ppl holding 42. Please check block explorer and you'll find out how Hendo and the team missed out on dumping to make huge profits just to prove this theory is what we need in place for the dumping and instamining to stop. Its all about win for devs win for community and win for the brand of the coin If its not win win win... Leave that coin and invest into a logical coin you can adopt and grow for the future. Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: maco on February 22, 2014, 07:18:33 AM Hendo is onto something everyone... Look at all these new coins popping out and community is losing money because they follow along the pump n dumps to gain money. The new Panda coin just whipped out the community and now here is my message to all of you... Hendo told you so... And 42 coin was a testiment to his theory. Read my post about pandas community dump https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=460037.msg5294823#msg5294823 If Hendo and the team would have dumped 42. 42 would be at a much lower price and it would have dropped immediately. This is crazy guys... Hendo called this out and no one listened. Well, how about you now double check your calendar because there is a new wave of theory that is about to change the crypto game for good. Yes, that's 42 coin. Yes I am motivated to help 42 and I myself haven't dumped my coins either and I know a few ppl holding 42. Please check block explorer and you'll find out how Hendo and the team missed out on dumping to make huge profits just to prove this theory is what we need in place for the dumping and instamining to stop. Its all about win for devs win for community and win for the brand of the coin If its not win win win... Leave that coin and invest into a logical coin you can adopt and grow for the future. Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: mikhael on February 22, 2014, 07:41:30 AM Hendo is onto something everyone... Look at all these new coins popping out and community is losing money because they follow along the pump n dumps to gain money. The new Panda coin just whipped out the community and now here is my message to all of you... Hendo told you so... And 42 coin was a testiment to his theory. Read my post about pandas community dump https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=460037.msg5294823#msg5294823 If Hendo and the team would have dumped 42. 42 would be at a much lower price and it would have dropped immediately. This is crazy guys... Hendo called this out and no one listened. Well, how about you now double check your calendar because there is a new wave of theory that is about to change the crypto game for good. Yes, that's 42 coin. Yes I am motivated to help 42 and I myself haven't dumped my coins either and I know a few ppl holding 42. Please check block explorer and you'll find out how Hendo and the team missed out on dumping to make huge profits just to prove this theory is what we need in place for the dumping and instamining to stop. Its all about win for devs win for community and win for the brand of the coin If its not win win win... Leave that coin and invest into a logical coin you can adopt and grow for the future. +1 Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: BitCoinPokerBro on February 22, 2014, 09:09:59 AM Miner A has 5mh/s and starts mining Fcoin at launch. It is an instamine. He makes 500,000 coins at a difficulty of 0.002 or less in the span of about 10 minutes. Miner B has 5mh/s and likes the new Fcoin but is finding out about it 30 minutes after launch. He gets on and mines for the next 3 days and mines only 5,000 coins. If you agree with me can I get a HELL YEAH? These days it's all about scrypt asics and 25-50+MH farms. Small miners with sub 5mh don't make shit anymore. Title: Re: [LECTURE] Why Instamining is BAD and why you shouldn't allow it when you Launch Post by: eddilicious on February 22, 2014, 10:57:19 PM hell yeah!!!!
but i think they do it on purpose, because it is the dev that has a rig ready for it during the launch. my thinking is, there are lots of dev in this forum. everyone wants to be insta-rich by copy paste. that does not help crypto-currency as a whole. it ends up they destroy the opportunity that can really make all of us rich. for alt coin to survive, WE DONT NEED ANY NEW COINS. WE NEED A ECONOMY FOR EXISTING COINS. Even for those scrypt-jane, scrypt-sussie coins, if the blocks halves too fast, by the time the coin is 99% mined, and no economy is developed for it. it will still die no matter what. |