Bitcoin Forum

We could see it being banned in Canada next.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101343464#_gus

Full Story:
blogs.wsj.com/canadarealtime/2014/01/16/canada-says-bitcoin-isnt-legal-tender/?KEYWORDS=bitcoin

Nah I don't think they see usd as legal tender either.

This news certainly is affecting the price on BTC today.

Canada is not going to ban BTC, this isn't china. The article says "Only Canadian bank notes and coins are recognized as legal tender in Canada. Bitcoin digital 'currency' is not legal tender in Canada,". So even USD, the Euro, etc aren't considered legal tender in Canada. Another article about nothing.

Yeah like those news "about nothing" from China that dropped the price by more than 60%  ::)

this is good news actually why u want bitcoin to be legal tender in canada ?

Legal tender simply means you can pay taxes with it.

It also means that retailers will be less likely to adopt bitcoin since it's not legal tender.

Nah because we're now at the point where it's a marketing stunt. Not only is it free, there's no chargebacks.

Definition of Legal Tender "coins or banknotes that must be accepted if offered in payment of a debt."

By this definition Bitcoin is not legal tender anywhere in the world and probably won't be for a long time to come. This is just governments posturing and making themselves seen to be warning their citizens about Bitcoin, while they figure out what the hell it is  ???

They don't give a shit about businesses or debts, they only care to enforce use their own currency which they can print to pay taxes.

All this means is that you can't pay your taxes with Bitcoin, and business do not have to accept Bitcoin if they don't want to.

It's the same thing as saying the greenback is not legal tender in Canada.

It definitely does NOT mean it's illegal in Canada.

It's also another way to implement the legal realities of BTC at a government level.

That said, the article shouldn't scare anyone off anyways.

In the U.S., legal tender refers to what forms of money cannot be refused by a creditor for extinguishing a debt.

Legal tender DOES NOT dictate what can be used as money or currency. Is the use of this term different in Canada?

No it's just fud

Bitcoin is not legal tender anywhere in the world.

It's a common misconception that "legal tender" means that it's something that is legal to pay someone with (and thus that something that isn't legal tender is therefore illegal to use as payment). But in all but a tiny number of countries it is legal to pay anyone with whatever legal-to-possess things you wish. Trading/barter is generally legal.

As others have said, legal tender means that it's a form of payment that cannot be legally denied in the payment of debts denominated in the same currency. i.e. if you owe me one hundred US dollars, and you present me with a US $100 bill, I cannot say "This is no good, I need you to pay me in pre-1965 silver half dollars." I can't insist on that since a US $100 bill is legal tender.

Exactly. Gold isn't legal tender either.

In fact, in the UK, paying someone with 100 x 1 pence coins isn't considered 'legal tender'.

So, what's the story?

Well, the OP indicates that this means Canada could be banning BTC, so that's something... ::)

Yeah, but the OP is wrong, so it's nothing.

Piper67 +1

Canada will not ban BTC because they installed ATMs in their country :)

Very nearly

Legal tender is the currency that a court will accept as a payment.


Anything can be used to pay a transaction between any two entities providing that they both agree, the taxman could accept a painting or gold or fine wines, and most tax authorities have done just that. But if you fail to pay your tax or if the two entities go to court over a payment dispute and the courts decision is that payment must go through the court then that payment must be made in the legal tender that it recognises.

Bitcoin is legal tender NOWHERE. How is it a problem?

Language makes a big difference,

BTC  IS Still LEGAL TO TENDER, (tender simply means to offer)

"Legal Tender" is a designation of how Government recognizes money simply for taxes and such as mentioned where it's offer MUST BE accepted.



That said, most people aren't smart enough to understand this simple concept and will shy away from BTC some times.

We live in a world whereby language is everything. When Government clearly states something isn't legal people automatically assume that means it's illegal. I am not saying BTC is but certainly I can see if push comes to shove the Canadian Government driving a solid wedge between the banking system and Bitcoin, like what the Chinese Government did, initially people said it won't hurt China but now if you take the time and watch fiatleak.net you'll see that the trading of bitcoin is pretty much gone from a flood to a tiny trickle.

I should also note bitcoin started at $1000 CAD at MtGox today, its so far down to $965 CAD and continues to drop. I wouldn't be surprised if it drops down to $500~$600 range or less sometime next week.

I think what we're seeing is governments are just saying it's not a currency and will be treating/regulating like a commodity such as gold and silver bullion.  Those aren't technically currency either. 

TRUE


They did NOT say it was "illegal" by ANY stretch of the imagination.
contrary to what some people who can't use simple English, believe.

They didn't say it isn't legal.

"legal" and "legal tender" are totally different things

If something is not legal, then it's illegal. If someone tried to pass off bitcoins to you as legal tender they could be charged as the tender isn't legal (aka is illegal).

:)

The Canadian Government didn't install the ATM, some local resident did. As cool as Bitcoin ATM's are what stops someone from pushing it over and stealing the money out of them as they aren't built like conventional ATMs are? :)

only in the same sense that if someone tried to pass off ROCKS to you AS Legal Tender it would be a crime of FRAUD (it would NOT be a crime of using illegal tender).

OTOH if you traded ROCKS for good or services without  the fraud/lie of claiming it was Legal Tender, it would NOT BE A CRIME.


now go back to above and substitute "BTC" for "ROCKS" and may be you're get the idea.

IOW we can trade ANY item for any other item - legally.

Comparing apple and oranges, here there is a prime example. Saying that bitcoin is not "legal tender" does not mean it is "illegal tender", nor does it means it is "illegal".

Canada will go the way of the US. The Canadian bitcoin industry has been very responsible and is in regular official communication through one main lawyer with the government. We are no India or China.

If the US moves against Bitcoin, Canada won't be far behind. And remember, if they move against it, it's a badge of honor for bitcoin. Bitcoin is it's own hedge, it's so superior that if it's banned it'll be an admission by the central banks that their system can't survive crypto's adoption, meaning everyone will choose to hold crypto to guard against the poor house as fiat collapses from the straw on the camel's back (the straw being crypto).

Anyways, I'm super glad for all this bearish news because I got a whack of fiat waiting for all the idiots to sell to me (why would you sell below $4000 in the next three months?!?!?). We know that btc will reach $40,000 with Zynga, Overstock.com, etc., and porn industry and the 250,000 ZipZap (or whatever) convenience stores adopting it. The major retailers are lining up to adopt it for payment.

Interesting.. ya know, the more I think about it, the more I believe nations will ban Bitcoins and deem them "unconstitutional" or whatever they need to.. Decentralized things never go over very well with governments

That's the power of BTC, though. Even if governments decide to "ban" it after treating it like a commodity, it definitely won't really stop people from "using" it if it's worth a lot.

How much cash do you have? I love hearing people buy Bitcoin. Can you keep us updated?

Why have I got the feeling this is a Canada Vs US thing and got nothing to do with Crypto's  :-\

I put $6500 On the exchange. I also sold a few at 885 CAD and that is also bidding for coin in low $700s. My hypothesis is 1. That most ppl still have no idea about bitcoins massive value, b. Bills from holidays are coming in, c. Chinese New year will pull tons of cash out of btc, c. also Chinese exchange limits going into effect will also deflate trading volume...

Overall it is kind of silly to expend much energy getting coin for %20 cheaper at any given time, when with $300 million in sales transactions, all the force integration and all the other infrastructure, the fact that transaction costs with th crypto are a factor of 10 more efficient, etc, it is perfectly obvious that we will see $40,000 soon.

technically they are money, bitcoin is not.

Very, very false, at least in any legal system based in English law (so the old colonials).  Nothing is illegal until explicitly made so by law, though that can include common law not necessarily a statute.  

A point this debate needs is that currency is not the same as legal tender.  Example, Scottich bank notes are widely recognised as currency in UK (with funny looks in England) but are not actually legal tender even in Scotland.  The exact definition of the term legal tender differs from country to country precisely because its the local specification of what is legally allowed to be used to settle a debt (not limited to tax).

I doubt Bitcoin is legal tender in any country unless there one has a open ended definition.  This does not mean you cant use Bitcoin, it just means its not recognised by law.  One receiving Bitcoins as payment for a trade could later say they have not been paid, they could technically say the Bitcoins have been held as security in lieu of full payment in legal tender.  

Another falsehood that the suggested FBI action to auction off their seized Bitcoins makes it legally recognised somehow.  This is no different from them selling off a car, house, boat, painting or anything else seized, they are simply selling an asset.

I don't see this as a "falsehood"!

The Govt does NOT auction off pot, counterfeits, forgeries, fake goods, ETC.

They ONLY auction articles that ARE LEGAL.

so IF they do auction any BTC's they ARE setting up a precedent for recognizing them AS a LEGAL product (by their existence, not necessarily ever use of them)

I meant recognised in terms of legal tender, though agree didnt make that clear.  It not setting a precedent though, back the main point i made, anything is legal until outlawed (or determined its covered by existing law). This sale doesn't mean future legislation cant make them illegal. 

no,if any, the precedent they are setting is, they are not illegal.
as above, unless legislated against, everything is legal.
selling pot (in most places) fakes forgeries are already accepted as illegitimate.
If anyone wants to buy my bag of magic beans, please PM me

Wouldn't this be a good thing (not legal tender) in that they're explicitly saying that they're not going to regulate is as an official Canadian currency.

I think the FBI auction does set a precedence because (a) they've recognized the BTC as an asset with value instead of a basic computer file and (b) they can't auction assets that are not legal - hence, in the US, the auction implies that the BTC are an asset that is legal to own and exchange.  There are also legal exchanges in the US that are operating under US regulations as money exchanges. That also backs up the legality of cryptocurrencies.

"Legal Tender: coins or banknotes that must be accepted if offered in payment of a debt."

This news is irrelevant.

No other currencies are considered legal tender in Canada either, that's normal and fine. Doesn't mean you can't accept it or pay for things with it.  Last time I was in Canada I paid for my hotel using USD even though USD isnt "legal tender"

To the comments about merchants being less likely to accept bitcoin if it's not legal tender , that's simply untrue.  Especially considering very few merchants who accept bitcoin actually ever receive bitcoins, they receive fiat currency because they use a bitcoin payment processor.

Like others already mentioned legal tender basically just means if you owe money for something offical  such as taxes or a court fine etc etc you have to pay in canadian dollars UNLESS otherwise agreed upon. If someone sues you and you have to pay $100 and you pay $100 worth of bitcoin instead, they can claim you never paid because it's not 'legal tender'. However if someone sues you and you have to pay $100 and you both agree to use bitcoin as the means of payment, then that's perfectly fine and it's considered payment made.

This news isn't shocking or anything that already exists with all currencies in most countries in the world.  One more quick example,  today I exchanged rmb in a bank in china for usd , the bank gladly and is willing to give me usd in china even though usd isn't legal tender in china. legal tender has nothing to do with something being "banned" or not.  You can still receive it, use it, spend it etc etc except in situations where someone demands payment in legal tender only, ie the government asking for taxes.