Bitcoin Forum

This is a follow-up voting to our first voting on the 9 million common fund here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=418695.0

So I think the consensus is that we should have a funding committee sooner or later. But imho, we need to define what kind of authority that funding committee could have on the common fund before we can move on to the next step to vote for individual members of the funding committee. I would suggest to think about it in this framework.

On the one hand the committee would make plans to spend the funds in details, the committee will then select qualified people to carry out each detail ventures, they would also monitor each project in details.

On the other hand, the committee could follow my principle of "open bounties" as outlined here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4604220#msg4604220.  
The idea is that the funding committee would only have the right to approve or disapprove when a project is submitted for a bounty. Project owners would have to present the project itself in a feasible way to persuade the community and the committee funding accordingly. A project will be funded if it get the majority of funding committee votes. Funding committee member cannot vote for her/ his own project

The third option is not to have a committee. So basically every single new projects, small or large would have to get the community consensus before getting funded. It could work but could be very time consuming.  

Voice it if you have some other opinions.  


Note: Criterion for being a committee member could be discussed later but don't expect that committee member are being paid. It is very likely to be a volunteer work so think about it when casting your votes.  

It should also be clear that an independent treasurer will have the responsibility of holding the fund and acts according to the community of funding committee's decision. For now our  treasurer is Come-from-beyond.  

I agree with the open bounty system, when committee needs to approve submitting for a bounty..

These tables are very similar:

I voted for detailed plans, but I like the bounty system too.  Hopefully bounties will have some earmarked funds in any detailed plans.

Only if members of such foundation are NOT paid.

can you please make that clear that it would be a commitee that is NOT paid in any way.?

thank you

Pin

Can we divide the funding 50/50 for both ways?

Sure committee members should not be paid.

thank you

bounties put the incentives in the right place

Open bounty, volunteer commitee. If a whale wants to reward them somewhere down the line, fine, but it shouldn't be a case of "let me on the commitee, give me some of that lovely free NXT"

Voted 2, but am a proponent of a hybrid version: funding committee plans and has its own agenda ánd gives out funds to open bounties.

Otherwise we will keep having problems that marketing efforts will be largely uncoordinated.

Open bounties are a good idea, and need to be there, though, if only as a means to get as many people involved as possible. Some people don't like to work in a team environment, and we shouldn't force them.

I think version 2 could include version 1. For example salsacz could ask for a big marketing bounty and when it is approved she can plan and implement it in details.

So we decentralized detail decisions to project and bounty owners.

yes, there could be a bounty for:

"Planning, coordinating and executing marketing campaigns"  (something like this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=412243.msg4555415#msg4555415))
(it actually is written in the table - organising campaigns)

Works for me. Basically the "coordinated" marketing is as much a project as any others. No need to give it higher status. That just leads to epithets like "official".

Thanks for helping me get that straight. Been racking my brain to formulate, but it's been a long day :)

Don't be afraid of higher status. Official can be a good way to differentiate between similar groups.

bounties the way to go...  8)

I would like to see something along these lines implemented.

with this in mind
+1 for open bounties.

We have a segmented global marked to embrace. I see no better solution.
"Locals" should have better knowledge of how to reach their countrymen/communities/subculture than a closed committee.
Or maybe not ;) So they will have to convince the committee of their bright ideas, talent and trustworthiness to (maybe) get funded. Or finance it otherwise.

The funding committee must gather incoming ideas and plans, evaluate them, and see how they fit into their overall plan for NXT marketing. And this "overall marketing plan" I believe is just as important as selecting who the members of the committee will be.
We could select candidates for the committee by their trust, their proof of talent and "personality", and/or members should be obliged to follow a general plan, that the community has agreed to. How do we make sure, that the committee is representing the will of the community? Do we care about that (development is for developers, marketing for marketeers)? I believe in open minds + project management, balls of steel (in need of a better word) when it comes to handling money, and a massive decentralized effort.

Open bounty for me too, all the way.

It's an excellent way to encourage development and to reward reliable, genuinely interested people who understand that helping to improve the community and obtaining some returns go hand by hand.

Then it's up to the comittee to deliver bounty in stages to optimize the efficiency of bounties, to open polls when necessary, etc.

Yeah, why would we pay the guys who do all the organizing, finding the talents, handing out tasks, coming up with tasks, beta-testing projects, proof checking everything and do most of the work. That'd be crazy

I like the second too. :D

We need to change with the change in a changing market, so I choose the open bounty. Of course, every funding and bounty should be transparent.

The biggest problem with having a strict "open bounty" committee is that less will get done and slower.
Obviously we'll need to have bounties, but a lot of the projects we are already working on and have been working on for a month is a lot more complex than that and needs to bring in people from the outside.
And a lot of these decisions need to be made quickly.

And where do we hold the decisions? Definitely not on BTT; there are more active NXTers at nextcoin forum so it's only sensible to have it there.

It would be much less fun believe me.

With not paid that means by community fund, if there are private sponsors I have nothing against it.

Pin

It's pretty obivous that people deserve to get paid for their work though. If the committee has to put in tens of hours per week they deserve NXT for their work. Noone should have to work for free to make other people tons of money, that's just common sense.

I think you forget two most important people behind NXT : BCNext and Luc are working without pay.

So BCnext and Luc got zero NXT from genesis?

They have a lot. But people who don't have big interest in NXT should not be in the funding committee anyway and that's why funding committee will likely work without pay.
 
If you want to be paid, submit a project and be a project manger; you can be paid that way. And keep in mind, coordinating marketing and promotion could also be a project.

Me, Nifty and Salsa has been doing this for a long time already. We started this in mid December.
The point is: a person in the committee should not have to be a stakeholder, this is about doing good work and getting paid for what you do.

Implementing projects, doing good works and getting paid falls into project manager's category. I am here before you. Sorry, but what's reason for all these whining ?

You can still be in the committee if the community trusts you but it is not going to be a paid job.

To be honest: I have no clue what you've done for NXT, but I am sure it's great due to the audacity you are displaying.
But me, salsacz, nifty, justabit etc. have been working dilligently for over a month, so please don't act like you are the god of NXT, you do not decide these matters.

Me and salsa have already discussed these issues and we think a salary for committee members are fair. Obviously it's up for vote, but it's not something you decide, sorry, NXT is decentralized. You are clearly not a part of this mentality and should probably not be in the committee if you honestly believe that you can make decisions for everyone

Do as you wish. And yes this is a decentralized network.

So you're just going to ignore the authoritarian speak of your last posts?
The only argument I have made is that if people do good work, they deserve to get paid for it. That's just common sense, NXT is about revolutionizing economics, not going back to slave labour.

Personally I am willing to be a committee member without pay, but I don't like the idea of "only big stakeholders should have the power!" like you suggested.
They already hold significant market manipulation power that they can abuse, I do not think it's a good idea to automatically make these committee members just because they got in early on NXT.
Don't get me wrong, there are several nice stakeholders like klee, neer.g, aldrin etc. but NXT being decentralized means the committee members should also be decentralized and chosen based on their dedication to NXT and nothing else.


And it's also time that we include the majority of the NXT community in on these choices, unless you don't pay attention at all, the vast majority of NXTers are active on nextcoin.org and not in the BTT thread. It's completely wrong to let just a few guys here decide the NXT fund and committee

Are you nut? Committee members will be voted by the community. The pay issue could also be voted by the community. But I would say that it is very likely to be a job without pay. That is my guess. I am not going to force this issue on anyone.

I wont waste more energy on this discussion, especially as you are backtracking and not takng responsibility of what you had already said regarding "COMMITTEE MEMBERS WILL NOT BE PAID" and so on. And "I am here before you" bs

Uniqueorn doesn't understand that the committee Utopianfuture is talking about will have only one function:

- voting about accepting bounty requests

It means - this job needs responsibility, experience, intelligence... But not much time

I am not a native English speaker. So perhaps you get me wrong. But in any case, never consider my saying a representative of nxt community, anything is just my opinion.

You need to reconsider your manner. You have been very rude to me who is actively working for the benefit of nxt. That attitude would not serve you well.

Don't you just love decentralised decisionmaking? :)

At the moment we are all starting to shout at each other because we are invested in Nxt. Not just with money, I mean as an idea and something we want to make happen.

That's GOOD!

The fact that we sometimes have totally different ideas of how to achieve this is also good. It means we are getting new ideas and evolving our model.

However, we are starting to reach the point where we are unwilling to listen anymore.

I sincerely hope we all can take a deep breath and can try to get to what we want again.

Nxt is growing and that will mean loads of people with different opinions coming in.

That's hard to deal with, however way you slice it, but it will happen.

Found this nice article in the NEX thread, by the way. It struck a chord regarding the issues in this topic at the moment: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-12-18/grunt-funds-are-trending-in-startup-circles

If at the end the committee is the final option, I suggest thinking about criterion for the members, to avoid any possible kind of corruption, one idea could be to select between the 1000 or 5000 richest NXTers, this way they shouldn't be tempted by bribery for taking any decission.

If we (the community) take care about those details, any risk to fail in the development of the coin is minimized, imho.

To me, the payment for being on a committee is that my NXT becomes more valuable.

A committee is going to be guiding NXT for a long, long time.  Long after the unallocated 10M NXT is gone.  After it's gone, where is the payment for a committee coming from?

I am voting for no payment of committee members.  Volunteering is commitment.

Easy to say when you are in the top 50 though.
Me, salsacz, justabit, nifty etc. who has done sooo much for NXT don't have a big stake.
I got NXT added to BTER, I wasn't really rewarded shit for it. We sent Nifty to the Bitcoin conference where he KILLED it and noone was rewarded for it.
How are we supposed to be paid for the fact that we are a huge part of the reason for NXT's success?

no, even if you create a FIRST bounty gdoc, lead it transparent, even at that time crazy fanatics come and hunt you down like you were some waste.

I was helping Nxt 12 hours a day for free and what did I get? Stupid hysterical fanatical Witchhunt?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=104283;sa=showPosts

Accusing salsacz is plain stupid.
Seriously wtf is wrong with this community? I have never seen so much drama over nothing.

It is not the entire community that's doing it.



Very interesting, thanks for the share! I'd been thinking of something like the grunt fund idea for a while now (way back before Nxt started). A lot of good things that people do go uncredited. I'm not convinced divvying up a pot according to "equity metrics" is the way to go though. (At least, what the article describes seems far from comprehensive enough to cover what people can bring to the table.) I'm thinking more along the lines of people giving each other "kudos", maybe similar to how reddit karma and DOGE tipping work. So it's a very social thing. But need to figure out deal with "karma whoring" (in real world terms, sucking up to the crowd) and stuff like that.

True and I don't imply that it is, but it is far too much negativity and random bullshit filling up this community.
We can't have people questioning eachother in such a manner, especially when there is not even preliminary evidence suggesting anything.
It causes uncertainty that is not needed in the cryptoworld where a lot of people are paranoid and nothing is 100%

I ran the first and biggest bounty  thread and managed over 2M private fund so far for Nxt, so I believe I can put some words here as one:

I am for open bounty systems, and the committee which may hold the fund should have only one function: to approve the bounty when it is voted by the community pool or verified by the core devs (or both), and then release the bounty fund when the winner is determined by the community or the devs (or both).

This committee should not be paid, the members are volunteers who take the pain and give the time to secure the funds and to allocate funds for decided bounties (believe me, it will take so much time and responsibility). Also among the holders there should be one or two big stake holders (with the main key to the funds accounts) who have not much financial motives to rub and run..

Also one essential condition, no matter you choose the open bounty or the detailed planning system, all approved bounties should be free with equal opportunity for anyone to participate. Any pre-assignment or giving more tech-info support to some special participants of a certain bounty should only result in elimination of that participant from the competition, by the committee's authority!

Nah...This is basically just a bounty system, we have already tried this and it just doesn't work.
It's not efficient enough. The entire point of releasing the marketing fund is so we can get to cracking.
There'd be soooo much stuff done already if the community wasn't so goddamn paranoid and unable to come to any conclusions.
Putting everything up for vote for the entire community will take too much time.

That's why I'd rather want a big committee. Like 10 people who have a proven track record of being deeply involved in NXT.

As for having a big stack. I don't think that is a fair requirement at all. Just because someone got lucky and got in early on NXT does not give them any more credibility. Not at all, unless that person has also donated big amounts. If not: the person is nothing but a random person who got lucky with NXT. That is simply not a achievement that should weigh anything. We already have plenty of examples of BIG stakeholders (10+ million) who still sign up on giveaways for as little as 1 NXT.
Greed never ends so your reasoning doesn't hold water.

Who are you?? you have 3 weeks btt history!

nextcoin.org forum, global moderator, been leading several marketing campaigns since mid december.

You speak so aggressive with active Nxt people, this is rude, no matter what your reasoning are.
Nextcoin.org is not the official forum of Nxt community, worse it has dgex origin, much worse there has been a bounty pool scandal there (the keeper who has been a moderator there, just ran with the accumulated donation pool money). Also as I said in early December, I could not get how some members of nextcoin forum has 5 stars hero status, though the entire forum has less than three months history?! (when I said it was less than 3 weeks history)
The point of having some well known and rich stake-holders among the fund keepers is that, a person holding 20M and having a nice btt and also Nxt history and reputation would less likely rub and run away (but yes it could happen too, though the probability is very small).

omg.... I speak agressively to idiots who either lie about something or someone who over and over and over again mess up the process. The fact that you are so unaware of nextcoin (IT HAS 4500 members) is a testament to your ignorance of NXT in general.

As for your attack on dgex: DGEX did indeed fuck up with the fees. He has admitted it and lowered the fees. He has explained himself and whether you accept his explanation or not is 100% irrelevant for this discussion. The fact that you are trying to discredit the work and 4500 membership by appealing to this topic in a way to try to discredit every nextcoiner is just disgusting.
And your point about DrexMe, well he was a trusted member here too. EpicThomas was exclusively here on BTT. As if someone of us could've known that a dedicated member would do that shit? Again a cheap ass attack on nextcoiners. Fuck you for that.

Me, nifty, salsacz and justabit all have origin back in nextcoin. We have collaborated since then. That is where we started our marketing campaigns. A LOT of what you see in the NXT ecosystem is due to nextcoin members, so please try to be a little more respectful and coherent when you speak of 4500 NXTers, ok?


I have already talked plenty with CfB about this on Skype. I have proposed several ways to ensure that noone runs away with the NXT. Among these are: if you volunteer you ahve to reveal your identity to CfB, so if you bail, we know your identity. Seeing as this is voluntary noone should have aproblem with it.

Okay monkey you can ask about who I am from CfB or salsacz, or klee or Pouncer or whoever you know as a leader. You seem to have no respect for anybody here, no matter who he is and what he has done.
Drexme was not a trusted member here, he had about 2 weeks history account, asked me several times to give him some donation from my 2M bounty pool (which I declined).
About dgex, nextcoin.org and their doing, I have responded its boss in the other thread much before. I guess you are too little of a piece of shit to be responded on this!

I don't know anyone as a leader. I know CfB as a great developer and one of the keystones in NXT, aswell as a paid coder for NXT. I know Klee as a great guy who got similar ideas as me on how to market NXT. I know Salsacz as a collaborator from nextcoin and one of the most trusted NXTers in my eyes.
The fact that you brought up DGEX as a argument is just sad and pathetic. Wtf do I have to do with DGEX?
I have no stake in DGEX. I was made moderator of the forum because I was voted in as Lead organizer over at nextcoin because I was one of the first to take initiative and focus on marketing strategies at a time when noone prioritized it. So you clearly don't know NXT history. And you tried to use your ignorance as a way to discredit me and of course that means I get annoyed at you.

hehehe, what can I say, well we wait for CfB or klee to come on board and say something...
(or you might have gained little brain and patience to read over Nxt threads here to know it yourself)
Good night idiot!

Reason and rationality was too taxing on your brain, so you decided not to answer because you knew you had fuckedup, but not man enough to accept it? Ok.

Wtf are we going to wait for CfB and Klee to do? What do you want them to do? They are not in charge of NXT, noone is. That is the point of decentralization.
What I get annoyed about is that you, out of sheer ignorance, decided to discredit the entire nextcoin community, which is the BIGGEST NXT community in existence all due to things that had nothing to do with Nextcoin, or me for that matter.

If you can't own up to that fuckup then please refrain from voicing your own opinions again. Opinions need to either be defended or exchanged for new ones once more information reach your neural networks.